Can you really make money spread betting

ask this question of a client who has made 1.5 million the last three days (US equities / S&P rolling daily and silver )

and for those clients who ask if Capital Spreads allows large positions.. or does not mind winning clients.. i think that last statement answers the questions.

Simon
 
My honest opinion is people only like to play the blame game to mask their own mistakes and **** ups, knowingly or unknowingly that they are making them.

Most people are either following a losing strategy, using far to tight stop placements becasue of fear and greed, or they are not experienced enough.

Its all to easy to point the finger and blame the SB company that you got stopped out or they were after you. Most of the people who say these things are normally trading less than £5pp and using 10-25pt stops and have a few hundred quid in the account, are we really to believe that the SB companies are widening spreads or manipulating price in order to take your minuet £20-£50 trade risk and wipe you out only to then go and spend a huge chunk of cash on marketing trying to get new punters in the door, I don't think so.

My view is SB's want you to make money as you will then be a long term client continually trading and paying the spread.

Were is the point of an SB company wiping a few hundred people clean for their few hundred quid, when they then have to go and spend thousands of £'s on marketing to try and get more punters in? It makes no sense.

I have been spread betting for 6 years and I will continue to spread bet as I have never had any problems with it.

6 years already makes you something of a rare dinosaur to still be actively trading. Well done for that... did your bankroll survive 2008?

People have overconfidence in everything they do when it comes to money and they expect to win. As a recent example, I have read comical reviews of online casinos with punters complaining that they were fleeced.... even though each and every game has a decent house edge regardless of any potential shenanigans going on... why on earth did they think they wouldn't lose their money? Terribly ignorant at best. Perhaps the casinos did whack in another 5% to their favour than advertised, but the mantra about a fool and his money comes to mind regardless.

The same can be said for a person new to the markets. Going in with a +VE expectation is a difficult thing to overcome. I think most of us do come to this with such an expectation and it is this that claims more scalps than anything else. Most of us dabble in this to get away from the mundane and give us hope for a monetarily rich future. It is difficult to cope when that proves to be untrue making you more and more irrational in your decisions. Not to mention bloody depressed.

Having said that, method is by far the most important facet of trading. You need to empirically test that your techniques give you a profit AFTER the spread and/or commission. The reality of spread betting is that the variable broker spread is much more difficult to account for than a market spread + commission. These days (since I day trade) I'd rather pay commission as the effect of a wide spread is cumulative against recovering a winning position at all, whereas you can recover a position much easier (pip wise) with a tiny spread + commission even if you finish the day down overall in pure money terms, but this can be accounted for in a weekly target. Anyway, people read Trading in the Zone (ultimately a good book though) long before they have figured out what their style actually is. Such nonsense. A lot of newbies have read the trading mantras distilled from this book on the forums etc so actually go in more resistant to the mental shocks than they should be (look at the number of losing traders on these forums dolling out psychological advice...), but are eventually worn down by their losing method so that they come out both a technical loser and a psychological wreck. Because their whole damn game plan was flawed. Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I think the shared knowledge in trading now has only made people less liable to question their method and skip steps. They honestly think a 3:1 ratio will sort them out, that the entry isn't (almost) all important, that supposed managed trades alone give them a tangible edge etc. That's why despite all this free information made available to us all, most of us lose.

And finally... the initial money required for someone with sound method... I would say don't waste your time thinking you can quit your job on £500-£5k and I'm not one of these naysayers about the potential of a good return for a trader vs an investor (since you can get filled around the current price easily, don't move the market, and are highly leveraged, there shouldn't even be comparisons with a 7-15% annual treasury investor against a full time trader, I won't even bother addressing this). However, there is a reality to it. If you're single, unattached and without dependants, then 25 grand is going to be your savings target... and expect to go back to work after the first time. I started trading with 5 grand, lost that, got another 5, lost that. Put in another 5, made some money, put in some scraped together savings of around 15 grand (absolute nightmare to put together) and took a career break with 25. I lost 7k in 6 months, which included the cost of significant London rental and living expenses so actually not bad all in. Returned to work. Collected a sh*tton of data during that time and quit again having saved the 7k again. That time I was able to leave employment for good - though I'd become such an intolerable phallus that I would have had to find something else to do regardless.
 
If your losses are consistent a quick way round your problem is to do your analysis as stated and if it gives you a long entry - go short; and vice versa. You may not understand trading but you will have a system. Make sure you use stop losses.

allanroger
New member
 
allenroger

frankly ... (and take this from the horse's mouth) .... if you are a consistent loser "the quickest way around your problem"... is to stop !

some 'tricks of the trade' can be taught and 'discipline' can be learned (but only by some people)... most traders, and i count myself in with this lot, just cannot divorce their personal trading from their feelings no matter how long they do it for ... but the simple way to stop losing is just not to trade.

Simon
 
To answer the question at the very beginning of the thread about making money spread betting..........unless you have fantastic discipline, deep pockets for the beginning losses, and better charts and news services than any of the speadbetters offer, you have not a chance of making a bean, but a fantastic chance of taking an express trip to the poor house. For the uninitiated into spreadbetting making a foray into it, it's akin to walking into a bookies and studying the form of virtual horses or dogs! SAVE YOUR MONEY.....bet red or black if you absolutely have to have a punt! your odds are infinitely better.
 
If your losses are consistent a quick way round your problem is to do your analysis as stated and if it gives you a long entry - go short; and vice versa. You may not understand trading but you will have a system. Make sure you use stop losses.

allanroger
New member

Rubbish.
 
I'm sorry but it is. When you look at why most people lose.

People don't lose because the markets automatically start to trend in the opposite the direction after you open a trade. They lose because of greed, lack of discipline, getting caught by ranges/spikes, poor risk managment and many other factors.

Its stupid to believe that reversing a buy/sell will change a loser into a winner. Its never a case of simply the market went the wrong way.
 
If your losses are consistent a quick way round your problem is to do your analysis as stated and if it gives you a long entry - go short; and vice versa. You may not understand trading but you will have a system. Make sure you use stop losses.

allanroger
New member

This won't work if the system loses because of the spread, which you still have to pay even if you reversed the signals.
 
hacks

it depends on what you are trading for. If you are a high frequency trader then the spread will hurt (although in many markets our spread is actually either the same as the underlying or even less if you take stamp duty and comms into account). If you are playing for 5 pips or more then the spread becomes increasingly irrelevant (within reason of course)

Simon
 
hacks

it depends on what you are trading for. If you are a high frequency trader then the spread will hurt (although in many markets our spread is actually either the same as the underlying or even less if you take stamp duty and comms into account). If you are playing for 5 pips or more then the spread becomes increasingly irrelevant (within reason of course)

Simon

I wish you guys would give us a decent spread on cable, 2 pips cmon. Give us 1 pips and you will get a ton of business. Hirose Financial give 0.9 pips. between 0.5 and 1.0 is standard off the smalls for cable ECN.
 
cable monster

the problem is that (as with all the spread betting companies) FX is just one of our 3000 markets

the FX companies only quote FX and so have a much faster processing potential . Hirose only quote about 50 markets and use a downloaded platform (i.e not web based) with everything contained within the screen platform. You also have to go through a two click trading process and the opened trade ticket is only one way... i.e you click on buy and it opens a buy ticket which you must then click on to trade. (at least that is how the demo works)

with Capital Spreads the two side ticket is permanently open so we cannot possibly 'read you' and the trade request process is much quicker

If a client just wants to trade FX (no indices commodities equities etc) and nothing else then this might be a good solution but frankly I do not like it.

Simon
 
I dont use Hirose at present but I know they have a web platform. I am just saying give us a better spread on the cable off the smalls.

Your parent company LCG use Currenex, ICAP, FXALL, Integral, Hotpsot but it's not spread bet.

If you are clipping less than 1m a time then cable spread is around 0.3 to 0.8 all the time, cable spread often goes inverted off the smalls, I havescreenshots.

Why dont you run a promotion for February, 1 pip spread on cable for T2W punters? That would be tasty. :) just an idea for you to get more business.

cable monster

the problem is that (as with all the spread betting companies) FX is just one of our 3000 markets

the FX companies only quote FX and so have a much faster processing potential . Hirose only quote about 50 markets and use a downloaded platform (i.e not web based) with everything contained within the screen platform. You also have to go through a two click trading process and the opened trade ticket is only one way... i.e you click on buy and it opens a buy ticket which you must then click on to trade. (at least that is how the demo works)

with Capital Spreads the two side ticket is permanently open so we cannot possibly 'read you' and the trade request process is much quicker

If a client just wants to trade FX (no indices commodities equities etc) and nothing else then this might be a good solution but frankly I do not like it.

Simon
 
cable

yes we have a very deep liquidity FX ECN platform but even this is to some extent illusory because even the biggest FX platform only show about 0.5/1m on the tight price... to get away 4-5m you will be looking at 1 pip to 1.5 pips AND you will be paying comms of 25 bps for a small client. As one of competitors recently said the battle over spread has turned more to reliability/strength.

As we are the market maker (whereas on an ECN there are multiple price providers) pushing a price that can be arbitraged by High Frequency Traders is just not sensible from a commercial point of view.

This said ... we have a new price engine that we will be lanching later this year which will enable more aggressive pricing (combined with more aggressive arbitrage control)

Simon
 
cable

yes we have a very deep liquidity FX ECN platform but even this is to some extent illusory because even the biggest FX platform only show about 0.5/1m on the tight price... to get away 4-5m you will be looking at 1 pip to 1.5 pips AND you will be paying comms of 25 bps for a small client. As one of competitors recently said the battle over spread has turned more to reliability/strength.

As we are the market maker (whereas on an ECN there are multiple price providers) pushing a price that can be arbitraged by High Frequency Traders is just not sensible from a commercial point of view.

This said ... we have a new price engine that we will be lanching later this year which will enable more aggressive pricing (combined with more aggressive arbitrage control)

Simon

the above figures tally with my research, in that if you need to get 4m or 5m off then you will be paying 1 to 1.5 on cable, most retail punters are probably only clipping £1 per point to $100 per point which is like 1 to 10 retail lots max and shirly you have punters going both ways. It's just interesting that nobody offers a decent spread bet fixed spread on cable. Even @ 1.5 fixed that would be a big improvement from 1.5. Hirose offer 0.9 during main market hours on a similar dealer based model.
 
cable

we are looking at a flexible price model which will widen the spread on higher trade size (and increase margin requirement percentage etc for bigger positions as we have no possible corporate risk from a small trader getting heavily slipped in a spike but a big one with a big position could, theoretically, do us damage) ... but it will not be available for some time.

like i say if your tastes just run to FX then a platform designed just for that might be better ... but i do use the word 'might' as there are advantages to spread betting on the tax front. This is also one of the factors that we (rather than the client) have to take into consideration. Unfortunately Customs and Excise take 3% of client losses from us .. so if a client loses 100 pips on a trade we have to pay 3 pips to the tax man. The numbers all add up.

simon
 
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