Can you really make money spread betting

Sorry Lee, didn't mean to sidestep you but thanks for the good advice. I looked at pre market orders and spoke to Ig about them. I came to the conclusion that it might be better to place an order to open the night before just before the market closes in order to gain from the folowing days market opeening price.

Any thoughts on that?

What amount of stop will you be playing with?
10 points, 50,100, 500?

What happens overnight will affect the opening price. But even if you call an up move, and your 'market' does close up on the day and there had been really good news out overnight. You can guarantee that the market will gap down, probably on opening. Taking out your stop before going in the direction you picked.

This is normal market movement.

Suggest you do a lot of study before you think about placing another trade.
 
Sorry Lee, didn't mean to sidestep you but thanks for the good advice. I looked at pre market orders and spoke to Ig about them. I came to the conclusion that it might be better to place an order to open the night before just before the market closes in order to gain from the folowing days market opeening price.

Any thoughts on that?

That does not, always, work, either.

I know. :(

I have found that that is when the SB companies widen their spreads on shares, if not on indices.
 
Back to the topic ...

YES.. you can make money spread betting.... Full Stop...


I have heard many bleetings about "they cheated me"... i have seen some reasonably unusual price activity, and have even had a rolling future close 15mins earlier than the published time... there is no doubt in my mind they all have tricks..

BUT,,

My take on it is this... your betting with £300 quid... frankly unless your using penny stakes...
IT AINT ENOUGH MATE ...
 
I have more of a discilpined approach now and my trading is getting better, I tend to use more CFDs than spread betting, but use spread betting for positions i am holding for a few weeks, overall i am up but a fair bit on my account.
 
you can start with 300 pounds and still make money.I started with 200 with iii.co.uk and i amke an average of 100 pounds a week.i ahve a target of 20pounds a day with 1 pound a point,so 20 points i am contend.
 
Waffi that sounds good, how many trades do you have open at any given time? Are you making the £20 pounds a day from a single trade, if so you have a good system. Would you be kind enough to share it?
 
you can start with 300 pounds and still make money.I started with 200 with iii.co.uk and i amke an average of 100 pounds a week.i ahve a target of 20pounds a day with 1 pound a point,so 20 points i am contend.


Guys, Guys, Guys, especially you bluedental,

Wake up mate. Even if waffi has achieved this, it is extremely rare and extremely high risk, you could blow your account a million times over before you make money doing this. You should be asking questions like: How long you been doing this? How many accounts have you blown? Are you up on your complete experience? ect ect.

Step back and take a hard look at what waffi has just said. waffi himself would know this is irresponsible trading clearly in the gambling camp hoping it pays off. If he denies this then he is not a trader but a gambler who wants to be called one and doesn't understand clear risk/reward and money management.

What he says is true, it can be done, trading succesfully can also be achieved by the way your tea tastes in the morning or throwing darts at a stock chart to place orders but it's not highly succesfull, this kind is clearly in the 98% (whatever amount) fail rate.


Right, lets look at what he's got and what he's using:

£300

£1pp (per point)

20pt target per day(£20)


Now at £1pp depending on market but the margin will be no less than half the account, ie, £150 plus. Now to have spreads of several pts, also depending on company but excluding special offers as these are here to lure you in only (obviously).
If waffi uses a 10pt stop this would be half his target but not only that, it would represent 3.3% risk of total account and excluding any spreads (assumes no spread is paid and gets market price), this falls into high risk territory.

1 loss = 3.3% of account. now if you keep the same stop of 10pts you run higher risk every losing trade, if you lessen the stops to keep in line with 3.3% risk then you have a far greater chance of being whipsawed out of the trade or the winners become less because obviously you have a lower trade value to counteract the stop loss policy.

Here are the factors:

10pts stop

1 loss = 3.3%
2 loss = 3.4%
3 loss = 3.7%
4 loss = 3.8%
5 loss = 4.0% ect and so on.

Waffi, how long you been trading? Whats your stop loss policy? What market/stocks you trade?

Bluedental, you haven't listened to a word I've said so far and have been totally absorbed into small amounts for big gains (extreme risk/low reward). Try buying some get rich quick schemes on the net or go to the casino. You'll soon figure out how these things sound attractive but seldom work.
 
Guys, Guys, Guys, especially you bluedental,

Wake up mate. Even if waffi has achieved this, it is extremely rare and extremely high risk, you could blow your account a million times over before you make money doing this. You should be asking questions like: How long you been doing this? How many accounts have you blown? Are you up on your complete experience? ect ect.

Step back and take a hard look at what waffi has just said. waffi himself would know this is irresponsible trading clearly in the gambling camp hoping it pays off. If he denies this then he is not a trader but a gambler who wants to be called one and doesn't understand clear risk/reward and money management.

What he says is true, it can be done, trading succesfully can also be achieved by the way your tea tastes in the morning or throwing darts at a stock chart to place orders but it's not highly succesfull, this kind is clearly in the 98% (whatever amount) fail rate.


Right, lets look at what he's got and what he's using:

£300

£1pp (per point)

20pt target per day(£20)


Now at £1pp depending on market but the margin will be no less than half the account, ie, £150 plus. Now to have spreads of several pts, also depending on company but excluding special offers as these are here to lure you in only (obviously).
If waffi uses a 10pt stop this would be half his target but not only that, it would represent 3.3% risk of total account and excluding any spreads (assumes no spread is paid and gets market price), this falls into high risk territory.

1 loss = 3.3% of account. now if you keep the same stop of 10pts you run higher risk every losing trade, if you lessen the stops to keep in line with 3.3% risk then you have a far greater chance of being whipsawed out of the trade or the winners become less because obviously you have a lower trade value to counteract the stop loss policy.

Here are the factors:

10pts stop

1 loss = 3.3%
2 loss = 3.4%
3 loss = 3.7%
4 loss = 3.8%
5 loss = 4.0% ect and so on.

Waffi, how long you been trading? Whats your stop loss policy? What market/stocks you trade?

Bluedental, you haven't listened to a word I've said so far and have been totally absorbed into small amounts for big gains (extreme risk/low reward). Try buying some get rich quick schemes on the net or go to the casino. You'll soon figure out how these things sound attractive but seldom work.
Excellent post by an experienced trader. Money management and stop loss is the basic of trading. Without it one will be lost. Risk management is all about normal statistical variations, and when these hit you in the wrong direction, and you are not covered you will be wiped out.
 
Lee Shepherd, I value your comments and advice, you have much experience and wisdom. As for me, I propose to invest large sums one day into this field but only when I have developed a system and strategy that works time and time again. There have been many good replies to this thread which I am sure have been valuable and educating for newcomers and experienced traders reading these replies.

I am not prepared to lose large sums of money whilst I am on a learning curve and the emotions involved with trading real money are not the same as demo accounts. Therefore, forgive me if I talk about £300 as a start up but if I was to start with £3000 and lose the lot through bad judgement, how clever would I be?

My guess is that there are probably more newbies out there who are just as unsure about trading methods as I am but the advice you guys are giving is a massive help and I'm sure like me, these guys will want to start small and grow bigger as they get more successful.

I have read many different views on spread betting and it depends on your own personality how you wish to view it. Some say keep it simple,others recommend charts, technical analysis etc etc etc. At the end of the day, it's down to you, your own strengths and weaknesses and your own desire to succeed. But, it is a gamble otherwise there would be winners all the time! After all, it is called spread BETTING, not spread trading!?!
 
Hi bluedental,
My guess is that there are probably more newbies out there who are just as unsure about trading methods as I am but the advice you guys are giving is a massive help and I'm sure like me, these guys will want to start small and grow bigger as they get more successful.
Doing as you describe is very wise. The problem (I think) that Lee was highlighting is that because you're trading with such small sums of money you don't - or can't - apply the same risk and money management principles that you would apply to a fully funded account. There's a very real danger here because if, like waffi, you take excessive risk with small sums and win - you'll think you can do the same thing successfully with much larger sums. No prizes for guessing what happens next. So long as you understand and accept the risks you're taking and have a plan in place to gradually reduce them as your capital base grows - then there's no problem. However, if you get into a bad habit early on and win, it'll mess with your head now (I'm a star trader, trading is a doddle etc.) and, down the road, you'll blow your main account as sure as eggs are eggs. Best to start off as you intend to go on if you're able, IMO.
But, it is a gamble otherwise there would be winners all the time! After all, it is called spread BETTING, not spread trading!?!
Until you understand and can distinguish between (proper) trading and gambling, then by default, you'll always be a gambler. Nothing wrong in that, but don't ever go beyond 'play' money because ALL gamblers in this business end up with empty accounts if they're lucky. If they're unlucky, they lose their house, job, marriage - the lot. Or, if they r e a l l y lose it big time, they can end up like this guy:
Mark O. Barton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know about you, but if I wanted to gamble, the horses or dogs are a whole lot more fun than trading!
Tim.
 
That is such a good point, trading should be just that and not a gamble. I see the point that you and Lee are making about differences in the sums of money put in and the risk/reward ratios and I have taken these onboard.

What was working for me in the demo accounts was to enter and exit on 100/20 moving averages. I then decided to get clever and read a book on trading with candlesticks. I think this was the beginning of my downfall as trading started to get too complex. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with candlesticks but for me, SMA seemed to work and fit in with my day.

Like they say, best to keep it simple!
 
That is such a good point, trading should be just that and not a gamble. I see the point that you and Lee are making about differences in the sums of money put in and the risk/reward ratios and I have taken these onboard.

What was working for me in the demo accounts was to enter and exit on 100/20 moving averages. I then decided to get clever and read a book on trading with candlesticks. I think this was the beginning of my downfall as trading started to get too complex. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with candlesticks but for me, SMA seemed to work and fit in with my day.

Like they say, best to keep it simple!


Hi bud,

Don't take this as too critical but:

Keep it simple.

Quite often gets confused for keeping it lazy. Dont get the two confused.

Keep it simple is a term primarily used for graphs, in other words, not too many signals at once (3/4/5 are practical), and keep the graphs clean, tidy and precise for easy viewing.

Dont forget that learning to trade is like a college degree, it will take much time and some cash.
 
Lee, whilst I appreciate that you cannot rubber stamp a particular method, do you see any problems with me using a daily chart, SMA 100 day, 40 day and 20 day, MACD and RSI as the only indicators?

Is there anything in these indicators that a novice should be aware of except the lagging issues?
 
Lee, whilst I appreciate that you cannot rubber stamp a particular method, do you see any problems with me using a daily chart, SMA 100 day, 40 day and 20 day, MACD and RSI as the only indicators?

Is there anything in these indicators that a novice should be aware of except the lagging issues?

Hi mate,

Try them out for your target market.

Remember some indicators wont work some of the time on the same market and other succesful ones wont work for all markets. Whatever you chose has to be worked consistantly and obeyed. If you dont use them consistantly then you will get random results. Get an understanding as to why they work as well as why they dont.

You can try, say 4 or 5 indicators and when you get confirmation with 4 out of 5 or 3 out of 4 you could try the trade. Be consistant. Understand what moving averages are about then you will know when they are likely to give you false moves, also, beware of spreadbet companies and the prices they give, if these are not accurate then neither will your trading be. Also, dont trade bookies prices on out of hours markets that dont operate as these are judged by outside factors that may not have a bearing on the actual trading the next session and will catch you out with false moves.
 
Lee, whilst I appreciate that you cannot rubber stamp a particular method, do you see any problems with me using a daily chart, SMA 100 day, 40 day and 20 day, MACD and RSI as the only indicators?

Is there anything in these indicators that a novice should be aware of except the lagging issues?

Sorry to butt in but the indicators that you mention will give you around a 50/50 hit-rate.

It might be easier if we got YOU to explain why you think this set up will work and how you intend to use it - that way we get you thinking about what you are doing rather than you (with all due respect) gathering second hand experiences from other people.

Remember that no two people will see / interpret a chart in the exactly the same way.

Steve.
 
Hi Steve, this is my method that worked well with demos (but not 100%). First I establish a trend, up or down. Then my first signal is when the 100 day SMA crosses, this is backed up by the RSI to avoid overbought/oversold stocks and the MACD with the histogram corresponding to the direction that I think the stock is going.

My exit is when the 20 day SMA is crossed in the other direction.

Why do I use this? Well, I see it as coming late into a trade by which time the price direction is established. Although I wont make as much money, I feel it is a bit safer then trying to use the 20 day or even 40 day SMA.

When I look at charts, the difference in price of the 100/20 SMA is normally enough to cover the spread and give a return.

I have realised that one of my biggest mistakes I made early on with real money was to trade on 40/20 day SMA with little experience. This together with the points the other guys have highlighted cost me my initial £300.

Like Lee said, this aint no get rich quick scheme, its a learning curve that will hopefully one day end in riches!
 
Hi Steve, this is my method that worked well with demos (but not 100%). First I establish a trend, up or down. Then my first signal is when the 100 day SMA crosses, this is backed up by the RSI to avoid overbought/oversold stocks and the MACD with the histogram corresponding to the direction that I think the stock is going.

My exit is when the 20 day SMA is crossed in the other direction.

Why do I use this? Well, I see it as coming late into a trade by which time the price direction is established. Although I wont make as much money, I feel it is a bit safer then trying to use the 20 day or even 40 day SMA.

When I look at charts, the difference in price of the 100/20 SMA is normally enough to cover the spread and give a return.

I have realised that one of my biggest mistakes I made early on with real money was to trade on 40/20 day SMA with little experience. This together with the points the other guys have highlighted cost me my initial £300.

Like Lee said, this aint no get rich quick scheme, its a learning curve that will hopefully one day end in riches!

You are 100% correct – Unless you are very good there is no ‘get rich quick’ scheme available.

Your system seems very reliant on the moving averages (MA’s) – Why do you feel these are so important since, in a previous post, you say that you have already established trend before referring to the MA’s? In my opinion this is where the ‘human eye’ approach will never be bettered by mechanical / rule based systems. How about, once you have established trend, you manually calculate what constitutes ‘an average pull back within the trend’ by manually assessing the pull backs which occurred before it? Some people might use fibs for this.

Personally, in my own trading, I am looking for ‘areas’ of price action which I can mark up as important. Historically markets ‘react’ time and time again at the same areas. Using volume studies can help here as well. These area’s simply constitute points which you can use to make entries into, and indeed out of, the market. The idea being that you know very quickly if you are in a bad trade.

So, for example, suppose instrument ABC is in a consolidation after a short uptrend. Your chart shows you that $38.50 was good support on the way down 6 months ago but finally gave way causing the market to fall lower. The chances are that you will find that the same price will cause ‘a reaction’ on the way up. This presents you with an opportunity. If you place your trade near to $38.50 (long or short) you will know pretty quickly if the trade is a good one. The key in this game is to keep losses small. You’ll be surprised in this game how one or two decent trades will make up for 10 small losses provided you accept that you will be wrong more than you are right and hence will develop a ‘hard nosed’ approach for cutting those bad trades more quickly. Money management aside; most people who fail in this game fail because they have an insane ability to run losses whilst cutting winners. You’d be surprised how, if you were sat in front of a screen showing two winners and two losers, most people would cut the winners first and hang onto the losing trades in the hope that the losses would turn around. People also keep larger than needed stops because they feel that it will keep them in positions longer – They want ‘bang for their buck’ so to speak. People also place stops and just let them get hit despite the fact that they see price action that negates the original basis of their trade.

So, to sum up.....
The problem with too many indictors (like MA’s and RSI’s etc) is that they offer no real edge and only look good in hindsight once you have adjusted the length or the timeframe to tune into the indicator in question. By that time everybody sees the same thing and low and behold those settings don’t work anymore. Much of this ‘need for indicators’ is psychological. Human nature being what it is makes us come into the markets with certain beliefs and fears. Just like when we learn to swim we look to grab onto arm bands and bits of foam which we ‘believe’ will help keep us afloat and aid our swimming. You search for a blend of indicators is indicative of the same ‘self preservation’ belief structures.

The best research you can do is to study your own trading mistakes!

Hope this helps,
Steve.
 
Steve, I like your comment 'most people cut winners and hold on to the losers'. This is so true, crazy human behaviour! Thanks for your comments, I like MA because they produce coloured lines on a chart that are easy to read and they provide a physical element to a psycological problem, ie do I buy and if so when? Simple, when the blue line is crossed!

Dont get me wrong, I don't trade with this philosophy but its just one of the advantages of lines on a chart.

I keep hearing the same advice on this and other forums, keep it simple and develop your own style through practice but retaining all the fundamental principles that you experienced guys have advised and I totally agree. If I can make a better return on trading than leaving the money in the bank, how bad is that?
 
yep, you can - but not if your names Mike Ashley... !! (Newcastle FC/ Sports Direct owner)

300 GRAND a point with IG - LOST
LOST 10m in ONE MONTH
LOST another 29m

total losses 129m and CLIMBING...... !!

has this guy ever thought about " learning to trade "...?? :-0:LOL:
 
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