Can you be long and short at same time?

[Liquid validity]

I'm sorry , i agree with you if the time frames are similar like H1 with H4 , but when the time frames are very different , e.g : position trading for months , with daytrading , then yes it can be done and it is done by some especially in a popular market like the SP or a major currency or gold or a carry trade ... etc .

By the same trader as well?
Not the IB as a whole or an arm of it.
I already pointed out most traders are specialists, Rotter / Buffett.

If you are talking different size, then yes fair enough.
I still don't see why anyone would pay more to be flat.

 

[Liquid validity]

Yes, that happens occasionally at an individual trader level as well...

The main debate in this thread has been about long / short,
same instrument / same size, flat basically with two open positions.

In what circumstances would an institutional trader do that?
To reiterate, I am genuinely interested to know if there is a valid reason for
the above scenario.

 

[tar]

By the same trader as well?
Not the IB as a whole or an arm of it.
I already pointed out most traders are specialists, Rotter / Buffett.

If you are talking different size, then yes fair enough.
I still don't see why anyone would pay more to be flat.

Yes i'm talking about individuals , same or different size , BTW you are not paying more to be flat as per my example , same RT , remember everytime you're closing/amending the long term trade - for the sake of daytrading - you have to reopen it again after you finish from your daytrade , so either way you're doing the same RT .

Anyway the 5 min is up

Argument Clinic - YouTube

 

[Liquid validity]

Yes i'm talking about individuals , same or different size , BTW you are not paying more to be flat as per my example , same RT , remember everytime you're closing/amending the long term trade - for the sake of daytrading - you have to reopen it again after you finish from your daytrade , so either way you're doing the same RT .

Anyway the 5 min is up

Hakuna has covered several times the opportunity issue and
not having to trade, no point me raking over it again.

 

[Martinghoul]

The main debate in this thread has been about long / short,
same instrument / same size, flat basically with two open positions.

In what circumstances would an institutional trader do that?
To reiterate, I am genuinely interested to know if there is a valid reason for
the above scenario.

Well, it happens to me all the time, actually...

Maybe not the sort of reasoning that has been brought up and not related to timing for sure. Basically, if I have, say, two distinct multiple-leg trades with different rationales, but which happen to have common components. For example, say I am short Dec13 Brent vs Dec13 WTI, while at the same time I am long the Dec13/Dec14/Dec15 Brent fly in same size. It's not a perfect example, but things of that nature happen all the time.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but there might be a situation when an individual retail trader could be long and short the same instrument at the same time.

Say, for example, that you have a long SPY position in your SIPP, but your SIPP provider charges you $14.95 minimum per trade, and your leveraged account broker lets you trade at $0.02 per share.

You want to sell some - which do you choose?

*ducks for cover*

 

[Liquid validity]

Well, it happens to me all the time, actually...

Maybe not the sort of reasoning that has been brought up and not related to timing for sure. Basically, if I have, say, two distinct multiple-leg trades with different rationales, but which happen to have common components. For example, say I am short Dec13 Brent vs Dec13 WTI, while at the same time I am long the Dec13/Dec14/Dec15 Brent fly in same size. It's not a perfect example, but things of that nature happen all the time.

Ah yes, that makes sense, that is fair enough, no one would argue that point,
especially not coming from you

 

[Liquid validity]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but there might be a situation when an individual retail trader could be long and short the same instrument at the same time.

Say, for example, that you have a long SPY position in your SIPP, but your SIPP provider charges you $14.95 minimum per trade, and your leveraged account broker lets you trade at $0.02 per share.

You want to sell some - which do you choose?

*ducks for cover*

true, same as shakone initially said with no access to primary broker,
there can be valid reasons.

Yours is more about sidestepping transaction costs without the SIPP allowance
or tax implications.
Perfectly valid.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

Well, it happens to me all the time, actually...

Maybe not the sort of reasoning that has been brought up and not related to timing for sure. Basically, if I have, say, two distinct multiple-leg trades with different rationales, but which happen to have common components. For example, say I am short Dec13 Brent vs Dec13 WTI, while at the same time I am long the Dec13/Dec14/Dec15 Brent fly in same size. It's not a perfect example, but things of that nature happen all the time.

So you have done, through the same broker

-1 Dec13 Brent
+1 Dec13 WTI
and
+1 Dec13 Brent
-2 Dec14 Brent
+1 Dec15 Brent
================
+1 Dec13 WTI
-2 Dec14 Brent
+1 Dec15 Brent

yer?

It's just that, to keep track of the trades performance, you need to look at the two seperately, rather than trading the WTI/Brent funny fly thing (don't even know what you'd call it) you're left with. Or you put the trades on at seperate times, so traded the Dec13 Brent twice.

Like being long H4M4, then going long M4U4, without heading straight for H4U4.

 

[tar]

Hakuna has covered several times the opportunity issue and
not having to trade, no point me raking over it again.

Not applicable to our example here ... , if margins are problem , then many CFD brokers will not ask for a margin when you have a double position anyway .

 

[Liquid validity]

Not applicable to our example here ... , if margins are problem , then many CFD brokers will not ask for a margin when you have a double position anyway .

Fair enough, but rollover is still an issue if you choose to leave them both open.
Anyway, its usually reduced margin, not no margin?
Long time since I used IG CFD's...

 

[tar]

Fair enough, but rollover is still an issue if you choose to leave them both open.

Well yes so it depends on your style , but my example was specific , position trading plus daytrading - 2 separate strategies - so no extra rollovers , and rollovers work both ways "e.g : carry trade" ...

 

[Hakuna Matata]

now I'm late for the pub

 

[Liquid validity]

Well yes so it depends on your style , but my example was specific , position trading plus daytrading - 2 separate strategies - so no extra rollovers , and rollovers work both ways "e.g : carry trade" ...

Yeah but we all know most (all) brokers are robbing ba$tards when it come
to interest paid / earnt, in their favour
Not saying that isn't possible, but people don't always get the rates they think they should,
until they read the smallprint...

 

[tar]

Anyway, its usually reduced margin, not no margin?
Long time since I used IG CFD's...

Some will ask for 0 margin ...

 

[tar]

Yeah but we all know most (all) brokers are robbing ba$tards when it come
to interest paid / earnt, in their favour

Yes the positive wont cover the negative "for the same currency" ...

 

[Liquid validity]

Some will ask for 0 margin ...

I don't know otherwise, so I can't argue that

 

[Shakone]

Some will ask for 0 margin ...

Do you have a stop on both positions? What happens if spread widens dramatically and takes you out of both? What happens if you increase the long and the short until it's massive size, and you reach the same problem of widening spreads? So the broker asks for 0 margin, on two large positions that can be taken out in seconds?

hmmm.

 

[Liquid validity]

Do you have a stop on both positions? What happens if spread widens dramatically and takes you out of both? What happens if you increase the long and the short until it's massive size, and you reach the same problem of widening spreads? So the broker asks for 0 margin, on two large positions that can be taken out in seconds?

hmmm.

Yeah with stops they must ask for margin, I assumed he meant no stops.

 

[Shakone]

Yeah with stops they must ask for margin, I assumed he meant no stops.

So to do this, you either have to have no stops or have to put up margin for being flat? Lets add another one to the Con column for long and short at the same time. Still no Pros for this yet.