Can you be long and short at same time?

[timsk]

. . . I can never get my head around the benefit, unless your timing was right to begin with, in which case your stop would have been just as effective. Am I making sense?

Hi malaguti,
Yes, you're making perfect sense! I'm not presenting this as some kind of Holy Grail, or saying that it's a better solution than mainstream practices and conventional uses of stops etc. All I'm saying is that I'm open minded to the ideas and am willing to explore them for myself, based on what others have said who incorporate them into their trading practice. For those of you who have already been down this particular avenue and found no merit in it - that's absolutely fine. I might well arrive at the same conclusion myself. That said, I'm always wary of dismissing something out of hand, because, if there's one thing I've learnt during my time here at T2W - every time someone says something's complete hogwash or can't be done - there's usually someone doing it!
Tim.

 

[malaguti]

Hi malaguti,
Yes, you're making perfect sense! I'm not presenting this as some kind of Holy Grail, or saying that it's a better solution than mainstream practices and conventional uses of stops etc. All I'm saying is that I'm open minded to the ideas and am willing to explore them for myself, based on what others have said who incorporate them into their trading practice. For those of you who have already been down this particular avenue and found no merit in it - that's absolutely fine. I might well arrive at the same conclusion myself. That said, I'm always wary of dismissing something out of hand, because, if there's one thing I've learnt during my time here at T2W - every time someone says something's complete hogwash or can't be done - there's usually someone doing it!
Tim.

Im open minded too, but this I've done in my head, not like you and possibly exploring this for real. Perhaps I will try to look at those that have already tried incorporating..
thanks though Tim

 

[Atilla]

No stops, averaging down...what's going on here? :cheesy:

Going long and short the same underlying instrument with the same size, is being flat. There's no other way to spin it. Options trades with different strikes are a different issue, that's being long one instrument short another. Long and short different expiries, calendar spreads...again trading two different instruments.

Surely this debate has been done to death. If you think being flat (sorry being long and short at the same time) is going to help you make money, you're just kidding yourselves.

I see it as a way of managing a trade - like another tool albeit at a small fraction of a cost.

One can enter a trade based on long TF; monthly or weekly charts and based on targets hold a trade whilst taking short TF trades on daily or hourly charts; scalping.

Sometimes before big news I often put two trades in and then forget about it. When big moves happen it's easy money for little gain. Best not to have an opinion on direction and marry a losing position. The hardest part is closing a losing trade with two trades; it's not that hard really.

Horses for courses.

 

[Shakone]

Ok, I am flat, the market moves I am unaffected. Trader A enters a long and a short, pays the spread twice, he is unaffected by the markets movement but is down two times spread. trader B enters 1000 long, 1000 short, he is unaffected by the movement of the market but is down 2000 times the spread. Do I need to go on?

 

[Atilla]

I'll try and post 2 x live trades next week when there's likely to be lots of news.

EURJPY may be a good candidate in couple of weeks time as it's likely to see/have some big moves.

 

[kimo'sabby]

I follow solely usdjpy on m1 timeframe,
If i take long term long position at bottom of range market,
Can you take short positions while markets take small downmoves within the range?
(I use mt4 with Alpari)

Any advice would be great
Greg

Hypothetically, in principal, it's workable. But, you need to be able to overcome various negating factors.

Within what market times do you place most of your orders?

 

[Shakone]

I'll try and post 2 x live trades next week when there's likely to be lots of news.

EURJPY may be a good candidate in couple of weeks time as it's likely to see/have some big moves.

Why wait? Just choose a hypothetical move, however you want the price to move and show how it would be helpful to be both long and short.

 

[DionysusToast]

I think if you are at the stage where you can hold a winning position day trade AND run several winning scalp trades in either direction whilst your position day trade makes $$$ for you, then you are probably in a position to have more than one SB/DMA account to do it with.

Just open another account. I can't see any upside in trying to do it in one account, seems like a good way to fumble your way out of the position trade.

My hat off to you if you are this good though!

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Hi Flash,
Potentially, it can be of benefit in a number of ways . . .

1. As I mentioned in my last post, it obviates the need for stops, which are the bane of most traders lives. (Please note: I'm saying this as an ordinary member - not with my T2W hat on. I would not recommend this to newbies for whom stops are essential.)
2. Positions equally weighted on both long and short legs of the trade will protect you from any losses when no clear direction is indicated. As and when the market makes its move, you have the option to adjust your weighting on either side of the scales so to speak. You literally have double the number of options at your disposal, as you can add or reduce your position size on both legs of the trade.
3. It enables you to average into a position without incurring additional risk. I'm loathed to recommend other sites (hope Steve isn't reading this thread or I'll be in trouble, lol) but there's a thread on ET that discusses this in some detail that's worth a gander IMO: Averaging Down

As I say, I'm just experimenting with a demo account at the moment. So far, what I like most about is that it's a much more relaxed way to trade. How many times have we panicked and got out of a trade too soon, or hung on for even more profit and ended up giving profits back to the market? Opening an opposing position gives you time and breathing space without having to close out your main position.

Have a good weekend all.
Tim.

Tim it still doesnt help at all. If you are two short and one long,you might as well be one short,it has exactly the same affect without paying more costs.
Sure it may not cause you to panic to get out of a trade because you wont have a trade if you are one short and one long. You wouldnt go into a casino and bet 10 on red and 5 on black when you can just be 5 on red and not risk the zero.
As for hanging on for more profit,you wont have anymore profit because the hedging position has lowered the profit. However I look at this there's no way it can be of benefit unless you are using different contracts.
And worst of all Tim,what if it spikes or gaps, you could be in a real mess.

 

[DionysusToast]

It's a good way to get your broker to love you....

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Hypothetically, in principal, it's workable. But, you need to be able to overcome various negating factors.

Within what market times do you place most of your orders?

Oh come on guys,are you real. We are talking about taking one position in the market one way and one another,someone kindly explain how this can work without arbitrage or using different contracts. Please explain these negating factors and how it can work. I remember having the same argument with Black Swan and sadly people were believing him. I really surprised at how anyone can find a way this can work.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

I'll try and post 2 x live trades next week when there's likely to be lots of news.

EURJPY may be a good candidate in couple of weeks time as it's likely to see/have some big moves.

I still cant see this atilla even with news the positions stay the same and you are in danger of being stopped on one and then the market reversing. Even if you have targets at the point the target is hit you are level and then 50/50 from that point on.

 

[new_trader]

It's a hedging strategy of sorts, the benefit of which is that I don't need to use stops (other than 'cato' stops) and, I have the potential to turn a profit on the pullbacks as well as the main trend. I admit that putting it into practice isn't as easy as I make the theory sound, but I think the idea has merit and will continue with my experiments on a demo account.
Tim.

'tis the dream of a newbie...!

 

[Atilla]

Why wait? Just choose a hypothetical move, however you want the price to move and show how it would be helpful to be both long and short.

I agree it is not a general trading systerm but can have its uses that's all.

Came out of working on BB breakouts and I think Timsk prob remembers thread I tried out a few ideas.

This sys works best over market OB n OSold tops and bots. News usuallyadds weight to continuation or reversal.

But as mentioned not a regular trading system. Needs patience for setup.

 

[Atilla]

I still cant see this atilla even with news the positions stay the same and you are in danger of being stopped on one and then the market reversing. Even if you have targets at the point the target is hit you are level and then 50/50 from that point on.

Best to show rather than describe it.

Will try live soon when the opportunity rears its head

 

[bustech]

I go long and short sometimes on the same market.

Two types of trades.
Swing(24 hours or less), trying to go longer on some trades
Scalp(15 seconds or less)

Swing is taken on a 1 hour chart, working down from monthly, weekly and daily.
Scalp is taken on a tick chart with S/R on a 1 min chart.

Using stops or money management on both swing and scalps.

I do this on the FTSE, DAX and ASX.

Swing trade is a smaller trade done in A$ on each market with SB account.
Scalp trade is done in the local currency and 5 to 7 times larger size than the swing trade and done on a DMA account.

I also swing trade on the DOW, but sleeping when the DOW is open so no scalp trade's.
Also on occasion hedge markets against each other, but that is another story.
Never done on Forex, but guess it would work.

 

[the hare]

The old lulz are still the best.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

I go long and short sometimes on the same market.

Two types of trades.
Swing(24 hours or less), trying to go longer on some trades
Scalp(15 seconds or less)

Swing is taken on a 1 hour chart, working down from monthly, weekly and daily.
Scalp is taken on a tick chart with S/R on a 1 min chart.

Using stops or money management on both swing and scalps.

I do this on the FTSE, DAX and ASX.

Swing trade is a smaller trade done in A$ on each market with SB account.
Scalp trade is done in the local currency and 5 to 7 times larger size than the swing trade and done on a DMA account.

I also swing trade on the DOW, but sleeping when the DOW is open so no scalp trade's.
Also on occasion hedge markets against each other, but that is another story.
Never done on Forex, but guess it would work.

Nothing wrong in what you do
Because you take say 1 position short for your swing trade and then say 10 long for your scalp,you are effectively going one way with 9 positions and not really therefore taking trading both ways.

Would you ever go 1 contract long and 1 contract short in the same index? Im sure your answer is no but tell us anyway

 

[bustech]

Nothing wrong in what you do
Because you take say 1 position short for your swing trade and then say 10 long for your scalp,you are effectively going one way with 9 positions and not really therefore taking trading both ways.

Would you ever go 1 contract long and 1 contract short in the same index? Im sure your answer is no but tell us anyway

Never go 1long and 1 short on the same market. No point.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Never go 1long and 1 short on the same market. No point.

thats all im trying to say