alexaherself
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Indeed ... that's probably the societal version of the individual point made in post #61, above?
Indeed ... that's probably the societal version of the individual point made in post #61, above?
hhiusa
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It was implicit in the words "We were barely affected here".
In a conversation about America, in which no specific location has been mentioned, people will naturally take the word "here", in a response, to refer to America.
Glad to hear that Orange County is bucking the national trend, though: that's hugely relevant both to me and to the irrefutable point I made.
You do read very carefully as I said before.
Read that again! I was obviously not talking about the whole country as I said low income areas and middle income areas were affected. :smart:
Atilla
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Hey Guys,
Been following thread with interest and Corbyn has certainly added new ideas and twist to an otherwise dead and dull Labour, devestated by the charismatic personality of Ed Milliband the not so wonder boy as he thought he was.
I'm more interested in the Nationalisation debate which has captured attention and one I partially support. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd support Jeremy Corbyn's ideas in full but he has some good points.
Instead of nationalising all power companies I would strongly like to see one of them be taken over and managed by the Government.
State capitalism seems to work reasonably well for Russia and China and it could similarly provide a new choice for consumers and allow it to compete with the private sector.
Then it would be a case of people voting with their feet and money as to which service they wanted to buy.
I personally, see no benefit in the different trains that run between Brighton and London. On the contrary there is an issue I do not understand all their different price tarriffs and can't use one ticket on both services. Different operators complicate my journey - not help.
I can say the same for energy suppliers and mobile telephone operators. Why have 12 micro-transmiters when one can have just one.
I always thought Maggie got carried away with privatising even natural monopolies and hopefully this should open the debate and give people some real choice with a unified standard, nationally integrated transport and energy policy.
Moreover, if Blair thinks it's bad then it must surely be positive as everything he has done with the exception of making BoE independent has been naff-all.
I quite like the Conservatives at the moment too and perhaps they may scrap this idea of Private & Public partnership BS and just have Private and Public enterprises in the same arena compete for public service. Personally, I think Private companies cream the profit whilst Public carry the risk in this stupid partnership projects.
I think some part Nationalisation has legs.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rbynomics-and-what-might-it-mean-for-britain-
Been following thread with interest and Corbyn has certainly added new ideas and twist to an otherwise dead and dull Labour, devestated by the charismatic personality of Ed Milliband the not so wonder boy as he thought he was.
I'm more interested in the Nationalisation debate which has captured attention and one I partially support. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd support Jeremy Corbyn's ideas in full but he has some good points.
Instead of nationalising all power companies I would strongly like to see one of them be taken over and managed by the Government.
State capitalism seems to work reasonably well for Russia and China and it could similarly provide a new choice for consumers and allow it to compete with the private sector.
Then it would be a case of people voting with their feet and money as to which service they wanted to buy.
I personally, see no benefit in the different trains that run between Brighton and London. On the contrary there is an issue I do not understand all their different price tarriffs and can't use one ticket on both services. Different operators complicate my journey - not help.
I can say the same for energy suppliers and mobile telephone operators. Why have 12 micro-transmiters when one can have just one.
I always thought Maggie got carried away with privatising even natural monopolies and hopefully this should open the debate and give people some real choice with a unified standard, nationally integrated transport and energy policy.
Moreover, if Blair thinks it's bad then it must surely be positive as everything he has done with the exception of making BoE independent has been naff-all.
I quite like the Conservatives at the moment too and perhaps they may scrap this idea of Private & Public partnership BS and just have Private and Public enterprises in the same arena compete for public service. Personally, I think Private companies cream the profit whilst Public carry the risk in this stupid partnership projects.
I think some part Nationalisation has legs.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rbynomics-and-what-might-it-mean-for-britain-
But the reason the British public have suffered so many really poor performances over the decades since 1945 has been because the state was involved when it was incompetent to be there and did a really bad job -
British Leyland
NHS
PPI
GPO
British Railways
NCB
These immediately come to mind but no doubt other organisations were effectively run into the ground and deserved to be rescued from politicians and bureaucrats.
Bear in mind the UK state couldn't even run an effective regulatory regime for the financial services industry. It just might not have blown itself up if Brown etc. had understood they had a job to do.
Yet these are the same classes of people the left would entrust with our national infrastructure.
Of course the private secor cream profits, that's why they get involved. A classic law of investing is to look for a CEO or Directors who are also major shareholders in the company whose shares you want - reasoning that they ought to be investing their personal wealth where they and we expect a return. Why apply such a principle in our own investing and then villify these people for seeking their just return? Of course, if profits are excessive, there are government regulators to deal with that.... but where are they?
British Leyland
NHS
PPI
GPO
British Railways
NCB
These immediately come to mind but no doubt other organisations were effectively run into the ground and deserved to be rescued from politicians and bureaucrats.
Bear in mind the UK state couldn't even run an effective regulatory regime for the financial services industry. It just might not have blown itself up if Brown etc. had understood they had a job to do.
Yet these are the same classes of people the left would entrust with our national infrastructure.
Of course the private secor cream profits, that's why they get involved. A classic law of investing is to look for a CEO or Directors who are also major shareholders in the company whose shares you want - reasoning that they ought to be investing their personal wealth where they and we expect a return. Why apply such a principle in our own investing and then villify these people for seeking their just return? Of course, if profits are excessive, there are government regulators to deal with that.... but where are they?
alexaherself
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Most countries in Europe certainly seem to think so, and to have found so, regarding their transport networks and energy suppliers, I think?
According to the libertarian way of thinking, these are not "legitimate government functions", of course, but in a democracy, if the majority of the population want things to be set up that way (and opinion polls here certainly say so, very consistently), the idea's clearly at least worth re-visiting?
0007
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Before privatisation the railways were a good but very rare example of how a state sponsored company could be successful. The privatisation was botched because it was done in a rush and for political reasons rather than economic. Take for example the East Coast mainline: this has hardly been profitable under BR or franchise (3 companies dumped it or failed) and yet the service has been equally good both in private hands and when the franchisees walked away and government had to step in – so it can be done well by the State.
The (UK) railways were becoming very successful from the late 1980s onwards due to investment and good management but that was all thrown away on account of politics e.g. we failed to develop the tilting train properly because it was all rushed thereby allowing someone else to pick up pieces successfully. But we had developed the High Speed 125 - one of the most succesful trains of all time.
The current ticketing system and difficulty using various companies interchangeably is a pain. However, (and it's a big one) I dread to think of the union-wielding power of the RMT under Chairman Corbyn - it's bad enough now.
The (UK) railways were becoming very successful from the late 1980s onwards due to investment and good management but that was all thrown away on account of politics e.g. we failed to develop the tilting train properly because it was all rushed thereby allowing someone else to pick up pieces successfully. But we had developed the High Speed 125 - one of the most succesful trains of all time.
The current ticketing system and difficulty using various companies interchangeably is a pain. However, (and it's a big one) I dread to think of the union-wielding power of the RMT under Chairman Corbyn - it's bad enough now.
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Atilla
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The world has changed. Multinationals are different beasts. Management has progressed. Technology and new Systems have changed. People and Trade Unions have changed.
Just as we have foreign nationals managing our national football team, I strongly recommend we buy in top foreign nationals to manage our Nationalised Industries as they do a damn site better job than our Etonite educated stuck up snots who didn't know what they were doing but blame TUs.
We really must move on!
I loathe not having CHOICE in utilities or be told I have choice for Railway service when I don't have any REAL choice. Mind games or what? All sanitised PR words with no substance imo.
Also sick and tired of paying top dollar for mediocre **** poor elite financial advice and management when management charges are totally OT with performance.
We need a good fat cat shake.
National Railways is a prime candidate. Current system is soooooo messed up beggars belief.
Would be great having one integrated transport policy with one "Oyster Card" type payment throughout UK. Should be possible right. No zillion of tariffs ripping me off.
I always think Holland has top transport infrastructure. Lets emulate them.
Just as we have foreign nationals managing our national football team, I strongly recommend we buy in top foreign nationals to manage our Nationalised Industries as they do a damn site better job than our Etonite educated stuck up snots who didn't know what they were doing but blame TUs.
We really must move on!
I loathe not having CHOICE in utilities or be told I have choice for Railway service when I don't have any REAL choice. Mind games or what? All sanitised PR words with no substance imo.
Also sick and tired of paying top dollar for mediocre **** poor elite financial advice and management when management charges are totally OT with performance.
We need a good fat cat shake.
National Railways is a prime candidate. Current system is soooooo messed up beggars belief.
Would be great having one integrated transport policy with one "Oyster Card" type payment throughout UK. Should be possible right. No zillion of tariffs ripping me off.
I always think Holland has top transport infrastructure. Lets emulate them.
Atilla
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An idae - Red Ken did well with public transport in London. Before he came, cars where choking the city. Now it's resembling a vibrant busy city with transport able to keep up.
Congestion Charging had many opponents but do believe most people now won over.
Should also add, cycling to and fro Brighton and cycling in London, I can distinctly tell the difference as nose and throat burns after visits.
There is much we can do to improve public transport and it would indeed benefit all if it was centrally planned and coordinated.
From my perspective it is a question of setting high standards and then replicating and applying through out the country. Not exactly like rocket science.
I think Jeremy may have touched on something which may rally the good old British spirit and support for Labour again you know.
He just needs to play it well. I think Tomorton you should become his press secretary as you are damn good with your political PR blurbs.
Congestion Charging had many opponents but do believe most people now won over.
Should also add, cycling to and fro Brighton and cycling in London, I can distinctly tell the difference as nose and throat burns after visits.
There is much we can do to improve public transport and it would indeed benefit all if it was centrally planned and coordinated.
From my perspective it is a question of setting high standards and then replicating and applying through out the country. Not exactly like rocket science.
I think Jeremy may have touched on something which may rally the good old British spirit and support for Labour again you know.
He just needs to play it well. I think Tomorton you should become his press secretary as you are damn good with your political PR blurbs.
Mr. Charts
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Atilla, do you think your beloved Lib Dems will rise like a phoenix from its ashes to become a merged party with the the bulk of fleeing panicked Labour MPs after the Corbyn self-immolation?
Richard
Richard
counter_violent
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What an interesting thought.
Lib Dem Lab Defectors 2, but this time more of a shift right of centre
Good point. He could be their saviour now that UKIP lived down to all expectations.
Atilla
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That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.
Can see it now - sort of a role reversal.
That has legs too.
Gets my vote.
0007
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I reckon that if Corbyn wins then the Labour Party Blairites will merge with the Liberals and form some kind of social democratic party . They will then spend an eternity deciding what they stand for. Either way, Dave will be laughing his socks off. Always a dangerous situation when there is no proper opposition.
Pat494
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The rich won't wait to get clobbered by the Marxists imho
alexaherself
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Immigrants (like me) can hardly believe the state of the railways here.
I saw a BBC programme not so long ago in which Nick and Margaret "looked into the railways". It included an item about a regular daily commuter train from Brighton to London (around 7.30am, I think) which hadn't actually arrived on time at Victoria on one single day in the last year. ("You tell that to the older generation of today, and they just won't believe you.")
To be fair, I suspect that the state of the railways is a cumulative one arising from a whole series of accidents (not literally, but there's that aspect, too) and lack of coherent planning during its long and very complicated history, rather than being intrinsically about whether it's publicly owned or privatised. But still, it takes a little explaining (especially to a foreigner) why a return train ticket from London to Cornwall or Scotland should cost more than a return flight from London to New York.
I saw a BBC programme not so long ago in which Nick and Margaret "looked into the railways". It included an item about a regular daily commuter train from Brighton to London (around 7.30am, I think) which hadn't actually arrived on time at Victoria on one single day in the last year. ("You tell that to the older generation of today, and they just won't believe you.")
To be fair, I suspect that the state of the railways is a cumulative one arising from a whole series of accidents (not literally, but there's that aspect, too) and lack of coherent planning during its long and very complicated history, rather than being intrinsically about whether it's publicly owned or privatised. But still, it takes a little explaining (especially to a foreigner) why a return train ticket from London to Cornwall or Scotland should cost more than a return flight from London to New York.
But still, it takes a little explaining (especially to a foreigner) why a return train ticket from London to Cornwall or Scotland should cost more than a return flight from London to New York.
Nobody wants to take the train for such a journey. Not enough to make it worthwhile. Nobody ever wanted to take the train for such a journey, its just that pre-cars and pre-airlines, there was no choice. If trains had been invented after cars, they woudn't have been.
Atilla
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You miss the point. It's about cost not direct trains/railway track.
Cornwall to London to Inverness etc.
Your reasoning doesn't explain why popular routes are so expensive either.
0007
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Artificially imposed politician's market forces through franchisee proxy. It's a long time since the railways were run for the benefit of passengers. It's a real kind of political wonkythink whereby you deter the customer of a public service by raising prices instead of giving him what he wants (cheap ticket, seat, clean & punctual train). Oh! of course, what most pax really want is to get to the North 30 mins quicker & more expensively via HS2.
All rail routes are expensive because they're a phenomenally expensive way to move people about. Tickets in other countries are cheaper because their governments subsidise them more, but the costs are still just as high.
Rail's a decent bulk freight network. But long distance passenger haulage is an abuse of a practical idea for moving bulk materials. Apart from a residual strategic freight network I'd like to see the long distance tracks ripped up and tarmacced over for road vehicles and the urban tracks made into roads.
