Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

[kevin546]

Garden

Re Tharp book I would agree with this selection and for me the best part was his work on risk, position sizing and expectancy. He has advanced this work in a more recent work entitled 'Financial freedom through electronical day trading'.

The day trading did not offer much more for me but it is useful to widen your research so you have a better understanding of the market. Most of Murphy's work in the book you are currently reading relates to the daily chart picture so this may offer you a little more from the shorter perspective and how the players trade. As for the risk and expectancy it has become a major part of my trading and during each deal I know where I am in terms of my risk and expectancy as it develops and I am using this for day trading. As you learn more about the market you will discover that most info contained in a book will not offer you much more but that there will be something in it that jumps out at you as something you can use or adapt.

I know you are in the early stages but when you have finished your present reading list I would consider trying these 2

'Tools and tactics of the master day trader' by Oliver Velez and Greg Capra do not be put off by the reference to day trading. While it does incorporate day trading the term really means a trader who views the market daily, there deals are based on short term but not always day trades more a case of 1 - 5 or 10 days duration. Like the Elder book it was written in an easy flowing style making it a thoroughly good read as well as imparting information.

The master swing trader by Alan Farley, not such an easy read but a wealth of information with numerous charts both day trades and longer. As I said above most books like Elder who apply set-ups to the daily time frame can be adapted and I found my own set-up from Elder suited my day trading. So keep an open mind and expand your knowledge there just might be something in all these books that helps you define your own trading plan. At the very least you will have a good understanding of the different market players.

By the way to put your mind at rest I do not gain financially from making these posts about the books mentioned, they were recommended to me by other traders and I have followed the advice and read them to my benefit..

 

[Sirlosealot]

Socrates and all other Experts –especially Darksiders!!

I am not the only one to stop posting. Think carefully and you will come to the conclusion that the handful of top experts are not posting either. We cannot all be wrong in diverting our attention elsewhere.

As a self confessed loser (although luckily I only paper trade) I thought it would be of use to give you some thoughts on your comments on why we refuse to listen. Let me say from the start that I think you are quite right! Also let me say that everything I say is just my view even when I state it as a fact! Having been at the stage where I knew everything for sure I now know nothing for sure and would welcome other views on what I say.

I have been learning for over a year, and it is only now that I think I’m beginning to FULLY realising the enormity of the task. Throughtout this period I have read acres of stuff continuously telling me there is no holy grail blah blah. All this I have always agreed with. My very first action when I started learning was to email Tom Huggard after one of his seminars and ask him what chance I –a complete novice planning to teach myself- had in competing against seasoned professional of many years standing. This set has already been weeded out to eliminate the losers and dunces and a lot of them dont make money I believe. How could I even contemplate beating them. I realised logically that it must be a Herculean task to become a winner but I still kept hoping subconsciously, as I started reading yet another book on some weird indicator or whatever, that it would give me the elusive edge - the Holy Grail-that would make me profitable. What other profession could you expect to walk into and become one of the top 20% after 6 months self teaching. What arrogance is that.

For those of us not lucky enough to have mentors or be part of a trading firm it is a very lonely task. Just as the market is full of misinformation, fake outs, manipulation, dead ends, false starts etc etc, so the self learning route is also a minefield. We have no way of seeing the true path when we start out. We don’t see that 99% of this stuff only takes us so far, and that’s not very far. It then simply repeats itself again and again and again, often very well disguised and wrapped up with enticing marketing and novel ways of staing the obvious. In the learning path there are so many false trails, dead ends, deliberate fake outs, misinformation, calculated plots etc that us learners are bound to get the wrong end of the stick a good many times. At the start, how are we to know which route is good and which is bad? Who we should trust and who we shouldn’t? We can’t, and as a result all of us continuously make mistakes, get the wrong end of the stick, misread positions and generally waste time.

Why do the majority of us fail to grasp the nettle. My view is that the market adapts to ensures that we do not. If it were any easier the market would change to eradicate this edge and make it more difficult. If all losers were to become as good as the top traders what would happen. The market is essentially an overall no gain entity. So the way the market worked would change such that only the top 20% of all these now numerous expert traders would make money. Only those who change with it would keep winning. The faster they change the faster the market would change. The market will therefore keep changing until the majority cannot or will not crack it. As soon as they do the market changes again. The market will always win in this race just as 2+2 always= 4. I believe this is the fundamental truth in the market –even more fundamental than supply and demand, if that’s possible.

I suppose what I am saying is that for those of us learning on our own, this path through the search for the holy grail is obligatory. It’s human nature to subconsciously look for it. Only when the message sinks right into the depths of our subconscious can we start the real process of learning.

So my message to the experts is please, please don’t give up on us just because us losers seem like were not listening or we get the wrong end of the stick sometimes and occasionally make a fool of ourselves. We are listening but we have to go through a very difficult process which must take time and effort. By definition only a few of us will get through to the end but that is the way it must be. Unlike current exams where the pass rate keeps on climbing, the trading pass rate is fixed. The better educated the candidates are the higher the standard for passing is.

All this may sound good but the problem is, do I really fully comprehend it myself or is my logical self just regurgitating all I’ve read in the myriad of books and BBs I’ve studied. Or perhaps it’s all rubbish and I’m on another dead end track. I really do wish I knew. ARRRRRRRRRRGH

Regards

Gerard

 

[kevin546]

Gerard

I am no expert but well done for an excellent post. If I can offer any reassurance it is the knowledge that your search is not to find the 'Holy Grail' but to find your own trading path to success and to do that you have to try different things until they all fit and measure up to your expectation. At some stage you will find what you are looking for and will come to recognise that you had it earlier but continued to search trying out other similar methods until they proved less reliable than what you eventually settled on. In my case that meant about another year of searching when it was already available to me, I suppose it could be called fine tuning.

I think what set me on the final path was considering the complete trading plan rather than just parts of it, only when I put it all together and considered all that is required leading up to a trade, making the trade, managing the trade, stopping a trade to safeguard you capital, re-entry system for whipsaws, profit taking and expectation, record keeping, ongoing evaluation and further research. It all eads to a more relaxed trading atmosphere and state of mind knowing what you are looking for, recognising it when it arrives, accepting a small loss if it does not materialise and taking your profit at the appropriate time according to your plan. All that remains is to continue to repeat the process in some part becoming a disciplined by following a process where the balance of probabilities are in your favour.

Good luck

Kevin

ps I have been at it part time 4 years so either I am a slow learner or you have a way to go yet,LOL.

 

[SOCRATES]

Gerard, it is a very great shame that you have to suffer because of the behaviour of the others but you must also understand that for us, we are on a hiding to nothing with this and there is a limit to the aggresssion, abuse and rudeness we are prepared to take when we can turn our attention to our trading which in comparison is a doddle and it is what we really truly adore, having taken many years and a superhuman effort to dominate it. So by comparison there is no contest. You are the innocent victim in a crossfire and it is not your fault but you have to suffer the consequences of the collective conduct on these boards, from an unruly element who are either motivated by envy, ignorance, hidden vested interest, (Sharky take note) sheer rudeness, impatience, disrespect maliciousness or malevolent intent, for starters. The few who are deserving have to suffer, regrettably.

 

[DaveJB]

Gerard,
well said! There is no way for a new trader to sort good from bad - they both appear to be the same, if anything the bad have better PR! Unfortunately there are also many paths that look to be promising, but turn out to be blind alleys - and sometimes you don't have the energy or drive needed to turn back and try again. There are so many alternative approaches that I think it is perfectly possible to work hard and never get to the end, sadly - hence horsewhipping those who cobble junk together and flog it for £nK a day to lure the hapless along is the very least any civilised society should contemplate.

I got a 'Priority Reservation Certificate' in the post today, only £1497+VAt for a whole day (lunch included) listening to Ed Downs and Martin Pring. Nothing against these two chaps, but as the IFTA conference in Spain charges 450 Euros a day to hear Murphy, Pring and others I know which one I'd be more inclined to attend ;-) Anybody wanting my spare booking form just PM me....

Oatman - you shgould have asked sooner, I can only assume I'm getting copies of Gardan's PM's.

 

[SOCRATES]

Dave JB you don't know the half of it. You are viewing it from the point of view of the pupil, not the tutor, or the mentor, which is the wrong way round, because unfortunately people do not carry labels stuck on their foreheads to verify they are suitable for this profession. I wholehearteadly support Skim in her statement that people do not want to absorb what it is they need to know, and , what is worse, they choose what it is they want to know, and that they perversely resist correct induction and gravitate towards fanciful choice. This profession is too serious to play around with in the way ordinary people fancifully think they can. When they disregard all the wisdom laid in front of them in a structured manner which is the legacy that all previous experienced traders leave behind for us to absorb, to accept and enact, then as a consequence of that disregard they have only themselves to blame for whatever outcome befalls them.
I do agree that there are people who prey on the uninformed by providing rubbish. This is disgraceful. But, however, dreadful as it is, I can understand, but not accept, how the unscrupulous succumb to the temptation on the basis that they give people what they want, and not what they need. If they were to give people truly what they need only very few would correctly use it, such is human nature, to my dismay and disappointment.

 

[barjon]

Socrates

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Eventually, when it starts dying of thirst, it will take a sip and be ever grateful to the person who put such a sparkling stream before its nose.

good trading

jon

 

[SOCRATES]

Do traders have any thoughts on who are the good guys-gals /bad guys-gals to watch for on this site ( I appoligise in advance if people think this one may be a bit ambiguous, who knows?)

I'm a bad bast@rd, so watch out

Nice to see you back Soc

Yes, I'm around Oaty, thank you, there is a lull in the proceedings......

And I am merciless, because I care, sometimes against my better judgement, even if it happens to fall upon ears temporarily and purposely rendered deaf, to my exasperation and dismay.

But I persist ~ it is not necessary to suffer pain, but it is necessary to avoid it.

 

[TRADERguy]

Garden

Re Tharp book I would agree with this selection and for me the best part was his work on risk, position sizing and expectancy. He has advanced this work in a more recent work entitled 'Financial freedom through electronical day trading'.

I read about half of 'Financial freedom through electronically day trading' and wasn't impressed. It is mostly the work of a second author. 'Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom' is a much better book.



Cheers,



TRADERguy

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Eventually, when it starts dying of thirst, it will take a sip and be ever grateful to the person who put such a sparkling stream before its nose.

good trading

jon

Yes, you are perfectly right, but in the meantime they give one a lot of aggravatiion and nuisance, don't they just ? (As Eric the Viking says).

And horses can be exonerated because they are horses, but many humans cannot and will not logically deduce and reason and absorb no matter if it is said in plain language, or in morse, or by semaphore or any other means, unless you have some new groundbreaking ideas.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates: I am sorry but I don't quite understand entirely. Are your comments directed at me and the content of the thread that I posted? If so I would like to apologise if any of my comments have offended you.

Thanks

Dear Gardan, you will have to be patient and wait for a complete explanation, and, when that happens you will understand and be satisfied, I promise you. I always keep my promises.
Dictum Meum Pactum. You have to wait until conditions are right for it. Having to learn to wait is very good training when dealing with the market also by the way, so it will not do you any harm, but I am determined that benefit will be derived, sooner or later. Just follow my posts on this thread, and don't wander off and become distracted.

 

[darktone]

hey up Soc , i thought you left these shores.
Will rog be coming back to?

 

[Gardan]

Socrates: Thank you for your kind reply ,if some what cryptic. I will of course follow this thread and I am glad you keep your promises.
Re your quote above "Just follow my posts on this thread, and don't wander off and become distracted"
I won't unless I am called back to class!

Regards Gary

 

[SOCRATES]

They are cryptic because I don't want to spoil the fireworks, but just make yourself available in readiness for it.

 

[fudgestain]

Hell, there is no harm in newbies. The fact that almost all of them, if not all, aren't going to reach the Holy Grail shouldn't be held against them.

The purpose of innocence in lifes great saga is for it to be slaughtered.

 

[DaveJB]

Hi Soc,
no, with respect, that doesn't identify the essential point at all - the point is that there is so much noise from 'false mentors' that the first survival rule a newbie learns is to be cynical about all and sundry. With so many charlatans posting the newbie begins to think everyone is a shark. All you endured was a series of posts from a few confirmed cynics, whilst the majority posted in support of you, and the mods ruled in a heavy handed manner that was quite alien to T2W to ensure that not only were you heard, but that dissenters were shut up. I accepted then that this enabled the thread to be a relatively noise free lecture, and that this thread was so popular that I htought it necessary... I do think that your exit was extraordinary, given that the 'noise' was actually quite limited, and stamped on quite ruthlessly - others have continued in the face of far more opposition!

A number of threads have run on T2W for a long, long time, a number of excellent posters have been here since the early days and still post good content. T2W is ostensibly a discussion board, not a soap box, and under the current rules/setup I truly think you are way out of line in assuming the members should remain quiet if they disagree or query your opinion - they have no reason to believe you know more than they do, why SHOULD they accept your opinion as gospel, especially when so many others are patently only interested in shearing them?

I found your psychological discussions interesting, they rekindled a small fire for me personally so I am glad I waded through them, as I am sure many others are. Yes I view it from the pupil viewpoint, because that is who you are addressing - I am making the point that if you really are a master trader, then you should realise that the pupils are confused by 99% of what is around them, and it is YOU who should have patience, leading the willing along the correct path, as other 'masters' along the way have so diluted the master status as to render it almost worthless!

If Jesus posted on here with a schedule for the next century, and happened to predict the next 3 weeks footie results with 100% accuracy, there would still be 5% of posters jumping in to say 'bet you can't make it 4 on the trot then....', if you are serious then you will ignore posts from those who are proven to be deliberate noise makers, and continue to chat with the rest - from what I remember of the threads you were involved in the cynics were far outweighed by the hopeful followers.

I teach for a living, a small percentage of the class 'switching on' is all a teacher can hope for - we suffer the indifference of the many to ignite a fire in the ambition of a few, all teachers start out (at least) fired by their subject, determined to pass their passion on.... we 'professionals' do not jack it in when the minority create problems - we work around them to find a new route to those we know will be receptive. I have yet to announce a garden bonfire of my prized Physics library!

Cordially, but still disappointed,
Dave

 

[DaveJB]

Fudgestain,
I like that, it has the ring of truth - but only for the majority, especially those who think you can buy a working system for £200 or less without working at it.

Sad, but if it were that easy then everyone would be doing it....
Dave

 

[SOCRATES]

hey up Soc , i thought you left these shores.
Will rog be coming back to?

Hello Darktone,

No, I am back, been very busy with the Buenos Aires crowd. There are some very keen Technical Analysts over there. Interestingly enough they try to give Spanish names to English technical terms and English names to local market practices. Also significant British presence there, 2nd, 3rd 4th generation ex pats. I have a lull in trading activity so I have some time gaps available to post in, but I may have to go any second, cheers.

I dunno, I expect he is very busy, ask him.

 

[tradesmart]

Well, Zenda, you really do seem to have a split personality. I haven't forgotten, even if you have, and others haven't figured it out. Toys and Pram spring to mind. And don't even think about asking me to explain. Or anyone else for that matter.

CM - Who's Brenda.......?

Oh - I get it.........!..........

Nudge Nudge/Wink Wink...........

 

[SOCRATES]

Hi Soc,
no, with respect, that doesn't identify the essential point at all - the point is that there is so much noise from 'false mentors' that the first survival rule a newbie learns is to be cynical about all and sundry. With so many charlatans posting the newbie begins to think everyone is a shark. All you endured was a series of posts from a few confirmed cynics, whilst the majority posted in support of you, and the mods ruled in a heavy handed manner that was quite alien to T2W to ensure that not only were you heard, but that dissenters were shut up. I accepted then that this enabled the thread to be a relatively noise free lecture, and that this thread was so popular that I htought it necessary... I do think that your exit was extraordinary, given that the 'noise' was actually quite limited, and stamped on quite ruthlessly - others have continued in the face of far more opposition!

A number of threads have run on T2W for a long, long time, a number of excellent posters have been here since the early days and still post good content. T2W is ostensibly a discussion board, not a soap box, and under the current rules/setup I truly think you are way out of line in assuming the members should remain quiet if they disagree or query your opinion - they have no reason to believe you know more than they do, why SHOULD they accept your opinion as gospel, especially when so many others are patently only interested in shearing them?

I found your psychological discussions interesting, they rekindled a small fire for me personally so I am glad I waded through them, as I am sure many others are. Yes I view it from the pupil viewpoint, because that is who you are addressing - I am making the point that if you really are a master trader, then you should realise that the pupils are confused by 99% of what is around them, and it is YOU who should have patience, leading the willing along the correct path, as other 'masters' along the way have so diluted the master status as to render it almost worthless!

If Jesus posted on here with a schedule for the next century, and happened to predict the next 3 weeks footie results with 100% accuracy, there would still be 5% of posters jumping in to say 'bet you can't make it 4 on the trot then....', if you are serious then you will ignore posts from those who are proven to be deliberate noise makers, and continue to chat with the rest - from what I remember of the threads you were involved in the cynics were far outweighed by the hopeful followers.

I teach for a living, a small percentage of the class 'switching on' is all a teacher can hope for - we suffer the indifference of the many to ignite a fire in the ambition of a few, all teachers start out (at least) fired by their subject, determined to pass their passion on.... we 'professionals' do not jack it in when the minority create problems - we work around them to find a new route to those we know will be receptive. I have yet to announce a garden bonfire of my prized Physics library!

Cordially, but still disappointed,
Dave

1 A
###

Hello Dave, I am going to reply to your post point by point starting at the bottom and working backwards. I may not be able to do it in one go because the markets in which I currently have an interest are running, so there may be interrruptions.

I accept that you teach for a living. I have no doubt you are a conciencious and patient and well informed tutor, and that you are devoted to doing your best collectively for the benefit of your students. However, the topic you teach I understand is Physics. I know it to be a complex and convoluted topic, I number a couple of Physicists among my freinds, one here in the UK and the other in the US. It is not the dry as dust topic many believe it to be ~ it is very interesting, some of it, totally absorbing, some of it really exciting, both at an intellectual and practical level.

The point I am now going to make is that the topic, like many other, whether of intense academic nature or not does have the ability to carry charge. When we say a topic does not carry charge, this does not mean the topic is not exciting, what we mean is that the topic does not have the potential to stimulate strong emotions such as greed, impatience, fear and hope.

What we call charge is an abstract conceptualisation ot the effect the topic may have in these terms on an audience viewing the potential, or the perceived potential, as viewed by them from a humanistic viewpoint.

Even though the concept of charge is an abstract one, for all traders when they start it is a very real obstacle.

They do not even have to start ~ even just discussion during a lecture is enough to create a condition of charge in any audience. This is because even before they actually start, their recognition of the potential is enough to stimulate a charged mindstate.

And they have not done anything yet !!!!! For them to do something requires the manifestation of will, its enactment, in other words. But just the idea of doing something is enough to trigger a mindstate welcome to charge and (secretly) hostile to reasoned judgement quiet contemplation and logical deduction.

This is the opposite of what your class would experience, the exact opposite, and all of it hidden from the tutor. And everybody behaves normally but inside their heads they are buzzing, with all sorts of ideas to thwart the long process of the accumulation of wisdom (instead of whizzdom) and to seek some shortcut to the final outcome that they perceive they are entitled to immediately, on fiat, by decree.

A charged mindstate is a disaster. It succeeds in disabling the victim from reasoning correctly. You do not and cannot face this problem with the people you teach, because the nature of the topic cannot and will not lend itself to creating charge. This is the first thing that you overlook. You have to experience this to believe it.

The second aspect is even more serious.

Now prepare yourself for a really long discourse.

I am sure that success in Physics can be very gratifying, I also accept that failure can be very frustrating.

In trading success is also very gratifying, but failure is very very painful indeed. That is the difference. You cannot have a greater difference than that, can you ?

Therefore, a small percentage of the class "catching on" in a properly structured trading tuition discipline is just not good enough, if you are a conciencious, patient and informed tutor. It will do if you do not take pains and pride in what you do to the best of your ability.

This is also the case if you do not know your topic back to front, upside down and inside out, of which you must because suddenly someone will ask a question, however arcane or irrelevant, but you are expected to know the answer, without hesitation, immediately.

The problem is that EVERYONE must advance at the same pace, otherwise one bit of the Jigsaw missing will cause failure. Part of the problem is that the average student does not and can not accept the severity and the mercilessness of what he or she is about to embark on.

In addition. ALL of the syllabus has to be absorbed. All of it; not just the bits that are attractive and not the bits that are not. Poeple are not accustomed to such intensive learning.

They are accustomed to lazy learning, not really serious, fiercely focused, hothouse learning.

Nor are they accustomed to learning several aspects of the topic by ROTE, by using PARALLEL CONCEPTS or by fiercely focused REVISION, in order for the knowledge to become second nature, as frequently it is required to regurgitate the correct concept to fit a scenario in a nanosecond, no more.

This is WORK, real work, you see, that people are either unwilling or unable to do. They want the benefits BUT NOT THE GRAFT.

THE GRAFT comes before the games. What they want is the games. You are horrified because I burnt a pile of books that I originally intended to give away to members as free gifts. I burnt them because in contradistinction to you it has been proved to me REPEATEDLY that the majority of people are not fit for this profession, and in consequence in addition of being threatened and insulted I chose to burn the lot.

All of those books were surplus to my requirements, as I have GRAFTED and I carry, indelilbly etched in my brain, all the contents of all those books, and that is why, if ever I am asked a question by a former pupil, the same correct answer is recited without hesitation, which is more than I can say about the great majority of individuals in this business.

Therefore for me to burn the books has no consequence. It would if I was unsure of my topic, which I am not, but I digress. I do not jack in a project because of a minority. I jack in a project when I come to the realilsation that I am trying to make water run uphill on the one hand and on the other that other matters which truly merit my attention are being neglected.

This is the end of part 1A ~ This is to be continued. See Post No 64.