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zambuck said:
Quite right, Zambuck. Their attempt to help a down-trodden people be liberated from one of the most evil regimes of all times, has led to so much anti-American feeling that next time they won't bother.
So the next person who has his tongue cut out or toe-nails ripped off in a torture chamber somewhere for speaking out against their despotic Government can send you a big "Thank you".
TWI
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Saddam was a very nasty bloke with no visible morals,
that is why the US put him in power and sold him lots of Weapons.
Who on here said anything different? I have not seen a single post defending Saddams Regime.
I think the rest of the civilised World just breathed a large sigh of relief.
that is why the US put him in power and sold him lots of Weapons.
Who on here said anything different? I have not seen a single post defending Saddams Regime.
I think the rest of the civilised World just breathed a large sigh of relief.
trendie
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ivorm said:
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
wasnt Saddam a nice guy ??
Donald Rumsfeld liked him enough to meet him and shake his hand !!
Ahhh, dont they make a lovely couple.
.....I think you are more unaware of issues than I thought you were.....ivorm said:
.....do you remember the words of reason of going to war BEFORE the war...
......it was not to liberate the iraq or dispose saddam BUT because of WMD....and that he can strike west in 45 mins.....
.....now as nothing has been found...the war was to liberate the people....!!
.....even the big guns of Conservative goverment are questioning this war and the reasons of going to the war in first place....
.......now US has twisted the argument and failthful and nonthinking have followed like sheep....
...and again you have twisted the argument by saying that people who are questioning ths war are 'pro saddam' or 'pro evil empires' - they and me are not...!!!!
...you have got it all wrong here.....
TWI
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This is a real report from a reliable source. "mission accomplished".
Wall Street Journal reporter Farnaz Fassihi's e-mail to her friends that got forwarded.
9/29/2004 2:58:10 PM
From: Farnaz Fassihi
Subject: From Baghdad
Being a foreign correspondent in Baghdad these days is like being under
virtual house arrest. Forget about the reasons that lured me to this job: a chance to see the world, explore the exotic, meet new people in far away lands, discover their ways and tell stories that could make a difference.
Little by little, day-by-day, being based in Iraq has defied all those reasons. I am house bound. I leave when I have a very good reason to and a scheduled interview. I avoid going to people's homes and never walk in the streets. I can't go grocery shopping any more, can't eat in restaurants, can't strike a conversation with strangers, can't look for stories, can't drive in any thing but a full armored car, can't go to scenes of breaking news stories, can't be stuck in traffic, can't speak English outside, can't take a road trip, can't say I'm an American, can't linger at checkpoints, can't be curious about what people are saying, doing, feeling. And can't and can't. There has been one too many close calls, including a car bomb so near our house that it blew out all the windows. So now my most pressing concern every day is not to write a kick-ass story but to stay alive and make sure our Iraqi employees stay alive. In Baghdad I am a security personnel first, a reporter second.
It's hard to pinpoint when the 'turning point' exactly began. Was it April
when the Fallujah fell out of the grasp of the Americans? Was it when Moqtada and Jish Mahdi declared war on the U.S. military? Was it when
Sadr City, home to ten percent of Iraq's population, became a nightly battlefield for the Americans? Or was it when the insurgency began
spreading from isolated pockets in the Sunni triangle to include most of Iraq? Despite President Bush's rosy assessments, Iraq remains a disaster. If under Saddam it was a 'potential' threat, under the Americans it has been transformed to 'imminent and active threat,' a
foreign policy failure bound to haunt the United States for decades to come.
Iraqis like to call this mess 'the situation.' When asked 'how are thing?' they reply: 'the situation is very bad."
What they mean by situation is this: the Iraqi government doesn't control most Iraqi cities, there are several car bombs going off each day around the country killing and injuring scores of innocent people, the
country's roads are becoming impassable and littered by hundreds of
landmines and explosive devices aimed to kill American soldiers, there are assassinations, kidnappings and beheadings. The situation, basically, means a raging barbaric guerilla war. In four days, 110 people died and over 300 got injured in Baghdad alone. The numbers are so shocking that the ministry of health -- which was attempting an exercise of public transparency by releasing the numbers -- has now stopped disclosing them.
Insurgents now attack Americans 87 times a day.
A friend drove thru the Shiite slum of Sadr City yesterday. He said young men were openly placing improvised explosive devices into the ground. They melt a shallow hole into the asphalt, dig the explosive, cover it with dirt and put an old tire or plastic can over it to signal to the locals this is booby-trapped. He said on the main roads of Sadr City, there
were a dozen landmines per every ten yards. His car snaked and swirled to avoid driving over them. Behind the walls sits an angry Iraqi ready to detonate them as soon as an American convoy gets near. This is in Shiite land, the population that was supposed to love America for liberating Iraq.
For journalists the significant turning point came with the wave of abduction and kidnappings. Only two weeks ago we felt safe around Baghdad because foreigners were being abducted on the roads and highways between towns. Then came a frantic phone call from a journalist female friend at 11 p.m. telling me two Italian women had been abducted from their homes in broad daylight. Then the two Americans, who got beheaded this week and the Brit, were abducted from their homes in a residential neighborhood. They were supplying the entire block with round the clock electricity from their generator to win friends. The abductors grabbed one of them at 6 a.m. when he came out to switch on the generator; his beheaded body was thrown back near the neighborhoods.
The insurgency, we are told, is rampant with no signs of calming down. If any thing, it is growing stronger, organized and more sophisticated every day. The various elements within it-baathists, criminals, nationalists and Al Qaeda-are cooperating and coordinating.
I went to an emergency meeting for foreign correspondents with the military and embassy to discuss the kidnappings. We were somberly told our fate would largely depend on where we were in the kidnapping chain once it was determined we were missing. Here is how it goes: criminal gangs grab you and sell you up to Baathists in Fallujah, who will in turn sell you to Al Qaeda. In turn, cash and weapons flow the other way from Al Qaeda to the Baathisst to the criminals. My friend Georges, the French journalist snatched on the road to Najaf, has been missing for a month with no word on release or whether he is still alive.
America's last hope for a quick exit? The Iraqi police and National Guard
units we are spending billions of dollars to train. The cops are being
murdered by the dozens every day-over 700 to date -- and the insurgents are infiltrating their ranks. The problem is so serious that the U.S. military has allocated $6 million dollars to buy out 30,000 cops they just trained to get rid of them quietly.
As for reconstruction: firstly it's so unsafe for foreigners to operate that
almost all projects have come to a halt. After two years, of the $18
billion Congress appropriated for Iraq reconstruction only about $1 billion or so has been spent and a chuck has now been reallocated for improving security, a sign of just how bad things are going here.
Oil dreams? Insurgents disrupt oil flow routinely as a result of sabotage
and oil prices have hit record high of $49 a barrel. Who did this war exactly benefit? Was it worth it? Are we safer because Saddam is holed up and Al Qaeda is running around in Iraq?
Iraqis say that thanks to America they got freedom in exchange for
insecurity. Guess what? They say they'd take security over freedom any day, even if it means having a dictator ruler.
I heard an educated Iraqi say today that if Saddam Hussein were allowed to run for elections he would get the majority of the vote. This is truly sad.
Then I went to see an Iraqi scholar this week to talk to him about
elections here. He has been trying to educate the public on the importance of voting. He said, "President Bush wanted to turn Iraq into a democracy that would be an example for the Middle East. Forget about democracy, forget about being a model for the region, we have to salvage Iraq before all is lost."
One could argue that Iraq is already lost beyond salvation. For those of us on the ground it's hard to imagine what if any thing could salvage it from its violent downward spiral. The genie of terrorism, chaos and mayhem has been unleashed onto this country as a result of American mistakes and it can't be put back into a bottle.
The Iraqi government is talking about having elections in three months
while half of the country remains a 'no go zone'-out of the hands of the
government and the Americans and out of reach of journalists. In the other half, the disenchanted population is too terrified to show up at polling stations. The Sunnis have already said they'd boycott elections, leaving the stage open for polarized government of Kurds and Shiites that will not be deemed as legitimate and will most certainly lead to civil war.
I asked a 28-year-old engineer if he and his family would participate in
the Iraqi elections since it was the first time Iraqis could to some degree
elect a leadership. His response summed it all: "Go and vote and risk being blown into pieces or followed by the insurgents and murdered for cooperating with the Americans? For what? To practice democracy? Are you joking?"
-Farnaz
Wall Street Journal reporter Farnaz Fassihi's e-mail to her friends that got forwarded.
9/29/2004 2:58:10 PM
From: Farnaz Fassihi
Subject: From Baghdad
Being a foreign correspondent in Baghdad these days is like being under
virtual house arrest. Forget about the reasons that lured me to this job: a chance to see the world, explore the exotic, meet new people in far away lands, discover their ways and tell stories that could make a difference.
Little by little, day-by-day, being based in Iraq has defied all those reasons. I am house bound. I leave when I have a very good reason to and a scheduled interview. I avoid going to people's homes and never walk in the streets. I can't go grocery shopping any more, can't eat in restaurants, can't strike a conversation with strangers, can't look for stories, can't drive in any thing but a full armored car, can't go to scenes of breaking news stories, can't be stuck in traffic, can't speak English outside, can't take a road trip, can't say I'm an American, can't linger at checkpoints, can't be curious about what people are saying, doing, feeling. And can't and can't. There has been one too many close calls, including a car bomb so near our house that it blew out all the windows. So now my most pressing concern every day is not to write a kick-ass story but to stay alive and make sure our Iraqi employees stay alive. In Baghdad I am a security personnel first, a reporter second.
It's hard to pinpoint when the 'turning point' exactly began. Was it April
when the Fallujah fell out of the grasp of the Americans? Was it when Moqtada and Jish Mahdi declared war on the U.S. military? Was it when
Sadr City, home to ten percent of Iraq's population, became a nightly battlefield for the Americans? Or was it when the insurgency began
spreading from isolated pockets in the Sunni triangle to include most of Iraq? Despite President Bush's rosy assessments, Iraq remains a disaster. If under Saddam it was a 'potential' threat, under the Americans it has been transformed to 'imminent and active threat,' a
foreign policy failure bound to haunt the United States for decades to come.
Iraqis like to call this mess 'the situation.' When asked 'how are thing?' they reply: 'the situation is very bad."
What they mean by situation is this: the Iraqi government doesn't control most Iraqi cities, there are several car bombs going off each day around the country killing and injuring scores of innocent people, the
country's roads are becoming impassable and littered by hundreds of
landmines and explosive devices aimed to kill American soldiers, there are assassinations, kidnappings and beheadings. The situation, basically, means a raging barbaric guerilla war. In four days, 110 people died and over 300 got injured in Baghdad alone. The numbers are so shocking that the ministry of health -- which was attempting an exercise of public transparency by releasing the numbers -- has now stopped disclosing them.
Insurgents now attack Americans 87 times a day.
A friend drove thru the Shiite slum of Sadr City yesterday. He said young men were openly placing improvised explosive devices into the ground. They melt a shallow hole into the asphalt, dig the explosive, cover it with dirt and put an old tire or plastic can over it to signal to the locals this is booby-trapped. He said on the main roads of Sadr City, there
were a dozen landmines per every ten yards. His car snaked and swirled to avoid driving over them. Behind the walls sits an angry Iraqi ready to detonate them as soon as an American convoy gets near. This is in Shiite land, the population that was supposed to love America for liberating Iraq.
For journalists the significant turning point came with the wave of abduction and kidnappings. Only two weeks ago we felt safe around Baghdad because foreigners were being abducted on the roads and highways between towns. Then came a frantic phone call from a journalist female friend at 11 p.m. telling me two Italian women had been abducted from their homes in broad daylight. Then the two Americans, who got beheaded this week and the Brit, were abducted from their homes in a residential neighborhood. They were supplying the entire block with round the clock electricity from their generator to win friends. The abductors grabbed one of them at 6 a.m. when he came out to switch on the generator; his beheaded body was thrown back near the neighborhoods.
The insurgency, we are told, is rampant with no signs of calming down. If any thing, it is growing stronger, organized and more sophisticated every day. The various elements within it-baathists, criminals, nationalists and Al Qaeda-are cooperating and coordinating.
I went to an emergency meeting for foreign correspondents with the military and embassy to discuss the kidnappings. We were somberly told our fate would largely depend on where we were in the kidnapping chain once it was determined we were missing. Here is how it goes: criminal gangs grab you and sell you up to Baathists in Fallujah, who will in turn sell you to Al Qaeda. In turn, cash and weapons flow the other way from Al Qaeda to the Baathisst to the criminals. My friend Georges, the French journalist snatched on the road to Najaf, has been missing for a month with no word on release or whether he is still alive.
America's last hope for a quick exit? The Iraqi police and National Guard
units we are spending billions of dollars to train. The cops are being
murdered by the dozens every day-over 700 to date -- and the insurgents are infiltrating their ranks. The problem is so serious that the U.S. military has allocated $6 million dollars to buy out 30,000 cops they just trained to get rid of them quietly.
As for reconstruction: firstly it's so unsafe for foreigners to operate that
almost all projects have come to a halt. After two years, of the $18
billion Congress appropriated for Iraq reconstruction only about $1 billion or so has been spent and a chuck has now been reallocated for improving security, a sign of just how bad things are going here.
Oil dreams? Insurgents disrupt oil flow routinely as a result of sabotage
and oil prices have hit record high of $49 a barrel. Who did this war exactly benefit? Was it worth it? Are we safer because Saddam is holed up and Al Qaeda is running around in Iraq?
Iraqis say that thanks to America they got freedom in exchange for
insecurity. Guess what? They say they'd take security over freedom any day, even if it means having a dictator ruler.
I heard an educated Iraqi say today that if Saddam Hussein were allowed to run for elections he would get the majority of the vote. This is truly sad.
Then I went to see an Iraqi scholar this week to talk to him about
elections here. He has been trying to educate the public on the importance of voting. He said, "President Bush wanted to turn Iraq into a democracy that would be an example for the Middle East. Forget about democracy, forget about being a model for the region, we have to salvage Iraq before all is lost."
One could argue that Iraq is already lost beyond salvation. For those of us on the ground it's hard to imagine what if any thing could salvage it from its violent downward spiral. The genie of terrorism, chaos and mayhem has been unleashed onto this country as a result of American mistakes and it can't be put back into a bottle.
The Iraqi government is talking about having elections in three months
while half of the country remains a 'no go zone'-out of the hands of the
government and the Americans and out of reach of journalists. In the other half, the disenchanted population is too terrified to show up at polling stations. The Sunnis have already said they'd boycott elections, leaving the stage open for polarized government of Kurds and Shiites that will not be deemed as legitimate and will most certainly lead to civil war.
I asked a 28-year-old engineer if he and his family would participate in
the Iraqi elections since it was the first time Iraqis could to some degree
elect a leadership. His response summed it all: "Go and vote and risk being blown into pieces or followed by the insurgents and murdered for cooperating with the Americans? For what? To practice democracy? Are you joking?"
-Farnaz
Perrington
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ivorm, Iam beginning to wonder if you are real ? You quote previously "Britain's Oxford Research International, 56 percent of Iraqis say their lives are better now than before the war" Now, lets think for one moment, (yes that includes you) Did you not learn one thing about what I said with regards brainwashing yesterday ? If you have failed to notice, the UK is part of the very coalition that is continuing to bomb and maim innocent iraqis. Do you really think for one moment that a respected opinion of our homeland is going to turn around and say 56% of iraqis feel worse off now under our occupation !!! Its all about media manipulation... A favourable statistic here another one there....and this is how the spin docters control the minds of people like yourself.
The great USA !! (country where you can buy a gun at the corner shop, and shoot down who you like without even so much as a licence) Is liberating the world !! hahahahah
US administration appointed Saddam Hussein, they armed him when IRAN was considered the greater "evil" evil being literally translated (threat to US economy and foriegn policy) and rumsfeld shook his hand ! Now that mineral resources are a greater issue, Saddam becomes expendable, and replaced by another "yes" man who the liberated people of iraq dont even want or have choosen as their leader !!
Ofcourse, we need elections, and ofcourse Allawi has absolutely no chance of winning the elections does he... the same guys are going to be counting in iraq who were counting in florida usa 2000....
The fact is conservatives no precisely what reality is, even though they act dumb, and bring up GOD and freedom and any other bull**** that they feel has any untrodden path's just to string out the discussion....
Iam not an impoverish man, so no hard feelings to the rich (which is a common one you hear from tories)
The fact is conservatives are maggots, maggots by nature and slimier than anything slimy I have ever seen or touched in my lifetime.
The great USA !! (country where you can buy a gun at the corner shop, and shoot down who you like without even so much as a licence) Is liberating the world !! hahahahah
US administration appointed Saddam Hussein, they armed him when IRAN was considered the greater "evil" evil being literally translated (threat to US economy and foriegn policy) and rumsfeld shook his hand ! Now that mineral resources are a greater issue, Saddam becomes expendable, and replaced by another "yes" man who the liberated people of iraq dont even want or have choosen as their leader !!
Ofcourse, we need elections, and ofcourse Allawi has absolutely no chance of winning the elections does he... the same guys are going to be counting in iraq who were counting in florida usa 2000....
The fact is conservatives no precisely what reality is, even though they act dumb, and bring up GOD and freedom and any other bull**** that they feel has any untrodden path's just to string out the discussion....
Iam not an impoverish man, so no hard feelings to the rich (which is a common one you hear from tories)
The fact is conservatives are maggots, maggots by nature and slimier than anything slimy I have ever seen or touched in my lifetime.
Bigbusiness
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If you look at this website www.iraqbodycount.net they have the minimum number of civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq at 13,928. I wonder how many of them would think the war has improved their lives?
I have asked an Iraqi friend to read this thread. He is heavily involved in several organizations promoting peace and democracy in Iraq. I am unable to give his name as he fears reprisals from Islamic fundamentalists
He was saddened but not surprised at the sentiment expressed by several of the contributors. He is very aware of the anti-war feeling in this country and, quite frankly, cannot understand it. He regards George Bush and Tony Blair as heroes for liberating his people from the evil dictatorship of Saddam and says that this is the view of the vast majority of Iraqis.
His belief is that the insurgents in Iraq will eventually be defeated and peace and prosperity will return to Iraq. BUT, this will not happen if the country is deserted by the Americans. His biggest fear is that American troops will be withdrawn because of the anti-American hysteria that seems to be gripping many European countries.
He dismissed twalker's report from a 'reliable source' as laughable.
He has asked me not to post any more on this thread. I have agreed out of respect to him.
He was saddened but not surprised at the sentiment expressed by several of the contributors. He is very aware of the anti-war feeling in this country and, quite frankly, cannot understand it. He regards George Bush and Tony Blair as heroes for liberating his people from the evil dictatorship of Saddam and says that this is the view of the vast majority of Iraqis.
His belief is that the insurgents in Iraq will eventually be defeated and peace and prosperity will return to Iraq. BUT, this will not happen if the country is deserted by the Americans. His biggest fear is that American troops will be withdrawn because of the anti-American hysteria that seems to be gripping many European countries.
He dismissed twalker's report from a 'reliable source' as laughable.
He has asked me not to post any more on this thread. I have agreed out of respect to him.
Noahedwinbeach2
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ivorm said:
I have heard similar reports too my friend. This same anti war garbage went on during the vietnam war and lead to the N. Koreans fighting harder because they were getting support from Americans. When the enemy sees many of its enemies people against the war there going to get hopeful and fight harder. That makes it harder on us. Instead of bashing Bush and the war suppor the war and pray for a quick end. If we leave that country it will surely be handed right over to the terrorist again. Everyone knows that. That country is still weak with no protection from terrorist.
Noahedwinbeach2
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Bigbusiness said:
So are the 360,222 deaths by the Union soldiers in the Civil War worth it? Or would you rather black people still be slaves?
Noahedwinbeach2
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Perrington said:
So do you really feel the media is on the Conservative side?
trendie
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Noahedwinbeach2 said:
black people in the US are several times more likely to be imprisoned for crimes than whites.
black people are more likely to die in police custody than white people.
black people are ghettoised into the poorer residential areas.
slavery can also come in the form of low-paid jobs, where people work hard just to exist, not truly live.
slavery can come in more subtle forms than mere physical shackles.
Noahedwinbeach2
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twalker said:
First of all why join the military if your not willing to fight and die for your country. Second war is going to seem like hell to any soldier. What war isn't terrible? Do people honestly expect 0 casualties in a war? He said it in his report they get hit by insurgents some 87 times a day. If we leave do you not think those same people will try to attack the homeland again? I really do not understand you liberals. Even if we take Bin Ladan out it will not stop them. They arent following a leader on this earth. They fight for religious reasons and that means there not going to stop till there all dead. Every one of those terrorist have to be killed. Our actions are not to destroy innocent people but the guilty. Unfortunately it will seem like hell over there till that mission is accomplished. Honestly liberals you used to say the war was about the oil but now that gas prices are so high I guess you have covered that lie up now havent you? Now you will come out with 100,000 more lies to con the American people into believing America is the devil. Like I said earlier there are many more countries in which you can take your butts too. Canada is one of them. They will be happy to accept more liberals. Go up there and leave America alone. We are liberators not cry babies.
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