Bush or Kerry?

[Bigbusiness]

Many people in the West seem unable to realise that we are engaged in a war against people whose prime aim is to take over the world and turn it into one state under the rule of their particular religion.

It is these people who are responsible for barbaric terrorist acts such as the recent beheading of Ken Bigley, the mass-murders of 9/11, the killing of innocent school children in Beslan, the burning of Hindu pilgrims in a train in India, and many other terrible atrocities.

At least George Bush has the courage to stand up to these people. All the Europen countries can do is grovel to them. Kerry does not have the stomach for the fight - and that is why we need Bush to be re-elected. Without him, it will bring closer the day when we see public beheadings, the stoning of adulterers, the cutting off hands of petty thieves, and so on, in our own country.

An interesting argument but fatally flawed. John Kerry does have the stomach for the fight and he intends to fight the correct people, Al Quada are the real enemy, not countries that have a lot of oil. By fighting the wrong people, Bush is making the world a less safe place.

 

[TWI]

Eminem is getting political.
Unfortunately (for some) his new album is not out until after the election but this animated video is definitely worth a watch. The lyrics are actually quite clear.
http://boss.streamos.com/qtime/interscope/eminem/encore/video/mosh-rev/300_mosh-rev.mov

Ivorm - I know we have disagreed in the past, it seems we do again, you are just talking the party line. You are required to believe this trash in order for the actions we have seen unfold in the last 4 years to be carried out with relative impunity. You are a frightening example of the success of the propaganda machine.

That IQ spread would suggest D's are on the whole more intelligent than their R counterparts. I suspect that is also reflected in the electorate.

 

[ivorm]

Ivorm - I know we have disagreed in the past, it seems we do again, you are just talking the party line. You are required to believe this trash in order for the actions we have seen unfold in the last 4 years to be carried out with relative impunity. You are a frightening example of the success of the propaganda machine.

.

I find it deeply ironic that you think I am the victim of propaganda. Given the quality and quantity of the links you frequently post here, it seems to me you must have become addled by some of the most mindless, (and sometimes quite vitriolic and racist), propaganda available on the web.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Interesting that the sum of the Bush IQs is only slightly more than the Clinton IQ.

Maybe Bush and his Dad should have done a joint Presidency - the combined IQs may just have been sufficient.

Is this anything to do with the old proverb

: A bird in the hand is worth two in the Bush ?

 

[cd173]

imho This is all about 'selling' to the voters thru propaganda. It's alot easier to get what you want in government when you're appealing to people's fears!
I don't believe it's a 'War on Terror' at all, just an administrations foreign policy it wishes to persue.
BTW anyone watching 'Fear of Nightmares' BBC2 Wednesday night? I found the first v interesting. Talk about history repeating itself!

C

 

[trendie]

Many people in the West seem unable to realise that we are engaged in a war against people whose prime aim is to take over the world and turn it into one state under the rule of their particular religion.

Many people in the East seem unable to realise that they are engaged in a war against people whose prime aim is to take over the world and turn it into one state ( McDonalds ) under the rule of their particular religion ( capitilism )

It is these people who are responsible for barbaric terrorist acts such as the recent beheading of Ken Bigley, the mass-murders of 9/11, the killing of innocent school children in Beslan, the burning of Hindu pilgrims in a train in India, and many other terrible atrocities.

We in the West have killed more people through inaction, by fighting wars by proxy, and through cynical "sanctions".

The pen is mightier than the sword.
( sanctions against Iraq ( mostly ecomonic ) resulted in the deaths of several hundred thousand children.
The 3,000 or so dead americans on Sept 11th pales into insignificance.

The US Air Force drops bombs on a wedding party kinning many innocent people, including children - NO CALLING THIS BRUTAL.
One man gets killed - BIG NEWS STORY.

Every time a white westerner gets killed - BIG NEWS STORY.
45 Iraqi men butchered by insurgents - NOT A SINGLE NAME mentioned.

Part of this is a pscholigical war - HUMANISE white people, by showing pictures, giving names, crying relatives.
Brown people - DEHUMANISE THEM - no names, no pictures of their faces, just use numbers, so you cant empathise with them.

RANT OVER.

 

[TWI]

Given the quality and quantity of the links you frequently post here, it seems to me you must have become addled by some of the most mindless, (and sometimes quite vitriolic and racist), propaganda available on the web.

You only say that because www.counterpunch.org has on occasion had the presence of mind to criticise aspects of Israeli foreign policy. I suppose you are also in the camp that accuses Soros of being a "self hating Jew" because he is a Jew and therefore you cannot level the criticism that you would level at any non-Jew of being an anti-semite. It is the same thing with Bush only he uses the label unpatriotic if you do not support his policies. Something about with him or with the "terrorists" - a definition that changes case by case.

 

[Thirteen]

Many people in the East seem unable to realise that they are engaged in a war against people whose prime aim is to take over the world and turn it into one state ( McDonalds ) under the rule of their particular religion ( capitilism )



We in the West have killed more people through inaction, by fighting wars by proxy, and through cynical "sanctions".

The pen is mightier than the sword.
( sanctions against Iraq ( mostly ecomonic ) resulted in the deaths of several hundred thousand children.
The 3,000 or so dead americans on Sept 11th pales into insignificance.

The US Air Force drops bombs on a wedding party kinning many innocent people, including children - NO CALLING THIS BRUTAL.
One man gets killed - BIG NEWS STORY.

Every time a white westerner gets killed - BIG NEWS STORY.
45 Iraqi men butchered by insurgents - NOT A SINGLE NAME mentioned.

Part of this is a pscholigical war - HUMANISE white people, by showing pictures, giving names, crying relatives.
Brown people - DEHUMANISE THEM - no names, no pictures of their faces, just use numbers, so you cant empathise with them.

RANT OVER.

correct. im sick of hearing people blubber over 911. who gives a sh!t about 3000 us deaths when 3000 people die EVERY DAY in 3rd world countries due to american foreign and monetary policy - mostly put in place and engineered by the banks who occupied the twin towers.

the more bush opens his mouth, the more i can understand (but not agree) bin ladens view

sad but true

 

[trendie]

correct. im sick of hearing people blubber over 911. who gives a sh!t about 3000 us deaths when 3000 people die EVERY DAY in 3rd world countries due to american foreign and monetary policy - mostly put in place and engineered by the banks who occupied the twin towers.

the more bush opens his mouth, the more i can understand (but not agree) bin ladens view

sad but true

Its no so much as the deaths are unimportant - its the selectivity over crying over one group of people and not over others.

Bin laden is also a threat - even though he was supported by US administrations, and financed by the US when in Afghanistan. ( trained by Green berets on how to ambush properly )

ANYONE who thinks they SINGLY have the TRUTH is a danger.

True democracy is allowing differing views, and not accusing people of being unpatriotic or subversive.

ANY mechanism/belief/policy which kills people randomly is wrong.
Deaths by terrorist bombs, or deaths by USAF missiles - both are meaningless deaths.

I dont have a problem with use of smart bombs - its the dumb americans I have a problem with.

We need to have something BETTER, and DIFFERENT to distinguish us from them.

We are different and better, because we have the power to UNelect leaders.
We are better becuase we allow films and documentaries that show the other view.
America is losing the meaning of the word "freedom".

Sept 11th was a tragedy, but to commit revenge by killing many times that many in Iraq, ( and DONT FORGET Afghanistan IS STILL going on ) is not a SOLUTION- it is just REVENGE.

Simple-minded solutions for simple-minded people.

 

[TWI]

Sept 11th was a tragedy, but to commit revenge by killing many times that many in Iraq, ( and DONT FORGET Afghanistan IS STILL going on ) is not a SOLUTION- it is just REVENGE.

Not even revenge when you consider the FACT that the two are not connected.
It just became simple to justify to the ignorant.

 

[trendie]

Not even revenge when you consider the FACT that the two are not connected.
It just became simple to justify to the ignorant.

yes.

 

[Bigbusiness]

I wonder how many have been killed in Iraq? I remember them mentioning 10,000 deaths after the initial war. There must have been a few thousand since then.

I think that one point that has been missed by Bush and his followers is that we are unlikely to win the war on terrorism if we can not marginalise the terrorists. The UK government couldn't defeat the IRA. There were too many people sympathetic to their cause. I can see the same situation happening now. There are too many people disgusted by the way the US government is behaving. They might not like the terrorists but they are not prepared to help defeat them. Look how long it took to get some sort of peace in Northern Ireland. Look how long it is taking to sort out the Isreal/Palestine situation. Are we going to spend the next 20 years fighting a war that is impossible to win?

 

[trendie]

I wonder how many have been killed in Iraq? I remember them mentioning 10,000 deaths after the initial war. There must have been a few thousand since then.

I think that one point that has been missed by Bush and his followers is that we are unlikely to win the war on terrorism if we can not marginalise the terrorists. The UK government couldn't defeat the IRA. There were too many people sympathetic to their cause. I can see the same situation happening now. There are too many people disgusted by the way the US government is behaving. They might not like the terrorists but they are not prepared to help defeat them. Look how long it took to get some sort of peace in Northern Ireland. Look how long it is taking to sort out the Isreal/Palestine situation. Are we going to spend the next 20 years fighting a war that is impossible to win?

I think one way would be to stop calling it Iraqi terrorism.
Many of the "insurgents" are Syrians, or Iranians, and the killers of Bigley were Jordanian.
Securing the borders would be a start.

There are many muslim neighbours who would prefer a weakened Iraq for local power-balance reasons.

Iraqi civilans are not helping themselves by not turning in known agitators.

The biggest tragedy, as you say, is the innocent civilians being killed. This on top of continuous uncertainty of basic resource like fesh water, food, health, education.

The "dont deal with terrorists" is quite obscenely funny.
IRA as you say.
Dont forget Blair recently shook hands with Colonel Gaddafi !!
( because it suits us in the short-term )
Iraq got all the western technology when it was fighting the then ( 1970/80s ) enemy, Iran !!
Saddam then was "our friend".
Where did Saddam get this mustard gas factories. ( the UK still has the receipts )
We managed to turn a blind-eye to the Kurdish killings, gassing of Iragi villages.
Not a peep about mass-murders then !!

All a bit of a mess, isnt it ?

 

[TWI]

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

Here is the main American index.

Before even two more years are out this thing will become a much wider middle eastern conflict. We will all ultimately be dragged into it whether we like it or not.

Incidentally here is a good example of double standards. Apparently since Beslan killing children is no longer a big deal.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/489479.html

 

[ivorm]

correct. im sick of hearing people blubber over 911. who gives a sh!t about 3000 us deaths ....

Nice one Thirteen. It doesn't take long for people to show their true colours. Perhaps you were with those lovely Arabic people we saw dancing with joy in the street after the 911 tragedy ( well, I regard it as a tragedy, even if you don't !)

 

[trendie]

Nice one Thirteen. It doesn't take long for people to show their true colours. Perhaps you were with those lovely Arabic people we saw dancing with joy in the street after the 911 tragedy ( well, I regard it as a tragedy, even if you don't !)

im sick of hearing people blubber over 911. who gives a sh!t about 3000 us deaths when 3000 people die EVERY DAY in 3rd world countries due to american foreign and monetary policy

ivorm, the above is what thirteen said.
he was putting the tragedy into context.
you are misleading by posting what you did.

 

[Thirteen]

Nice one Thirteen. It doesn't take long for people to show their true colours. Perhaps you were with those lovely Arabic people we saw dancing with joy in the street after the 911 tragedy ( well, I regard it as a tragedy, even if you don't !)

maybe trendie puts it better than i did:

Its no so much as the deaths are unimportant - its the selectivity over crying over one group of people and not over others.


anyway - no i dont care about 911 deaths. not saying its right - i just dont have any sympathy for them.

its time the world - especially america - woke up to the horrors that are happening elsewhere

interesting program last night on how many children/teenagers are on death row in texas. wot a surprize! more little brown people falling victim to the 'christian' interpretations of a bunch of incestuous red necks

 

[zambuck]

Nice one Thirteen. It doesn't take long for people to show their true colours. Perhaps you were with those lovely Arabic people we saw dancing with joy in the street after the 911 tragedy ( well, I regard it as a tragedy, even if you don't !)

.....if you regard 9/11 as tregedy then perhaps you may consider following as a tregedy as well...

Do you know how many children have died in Iraq because of sanctions?

Do you know how many people died in Iraq and Afghanistan after illegal war that was NOT sanctioned by UN...?

Do you know how many people die of just not getting fresh water in the world today. If you put them all in Jumbo Jets then do you know how many Jumbo jets that will fill...??

Get facts and you will be surprised as the numbers of 9/11 will pale into insignifance..If you want to show you true colours then state the fact that above few points are also a tregedy....

 

[Perrington]

This thread certainly has gathered momentum overnight ! wow

Let me enter into the fray

The coalition went into Iraq on the basis of "liberation" and "weapons of mass destruction" Ok, so we know there are no weapons of mass destruction (what a suprise) The coalition have removed Saddam, therefore fulfilling the liberation. So, why are we still there might I ask ? Because the job is not done ? hmm, It would appear now that the iraqi civillians have been liberated from our good friend (the us appointed saddam hussein) that we must now continue to liberate them from choosing there own leader, for example Moqtada Al Sadr and all the other religous fundamentalists. This is why the troops remain in iraq, not to secure law and order, but to implement our "yes" mans security, Mr allawi himself.

As far as Ivorm comments earlier, Iam afraid you have been completely brainwashed by the propaganda machine my friend, wake up and examine reality.... It frigthens me to think, that they really can blind educated people like yourself. When was the last time any country in the middle east made an aggresive move towards the west ?? They just dont have the military capacity to achieve such a goal, so this notion of converting the world to islam as a realistic threat to the west is complete bull**** ! dont you see it ? they have your fear well under control mate, get out now whilst you have a chance.

You may utter the words 911 as an example, well Iam afraid 911 was completely orchestrated from within the US, 911 created a problem that needed attention.... without 911 we have no war on terror, thats why they done it too themselves, to create something so dramatic in the eyes of the media, that the civilians of the USA and outer world, would be so shocked, that they could then conduct an otherwise barbaric and inhumane war on terror without too many questions (which is now backfiring BTW). The war on terror is conducted by the terrorists themselves, Iam afraid we have some real evil people in charge at the present time, and they the terrorists are masquerading behind the very symbol they choose to target.

 

[sidinuk]

Doesn't that mean he's got bouncebackability?

Let's just chill and enjoy the soccerette! Forget Iraq, Save Chip.