Brexit and the Consequences

Atilla said:
Hmmm not sure about that Tom, uni students always looking for summer time jobs. Agree, rates of pay poorly for hard labour but for young people who spend money going to a gym and getting tattoos, it's a bargain I reckon.

Saves money on fake tans too.

I did something like this when I was a young lad in Spain. G8 happy times. 😍
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For the chance to to spend time in Spain it might be worth putting up with the work. But I'll bet most of the work in Spain was always done by seasonal migrant workers. I'm sure many students would not stick this job in the UK longer than a week when they have to be up at 6 and get 1 day off, which is a useless Sunday.
 
tomorton said:
Just as an aside I thought I'd look at employment data, unemployment data and fruit picking jobs.

As we all probably know unemployment is at historically very low levels. The rate of increase in job vacancies is slowing down but there are still more jobs than there are unemployed people to take them.

Fruit picking jobs are advertised as typically 6 days/wk, 8hrs/day. Pay is just over the legal minimum wage. Pay varies by quantities picked plus overtime. Average weekly salaries around £417/wk. Accommodation is available but seems to be of variable quality, and nor is it free. Neither is food. Nor is travel to/from home. This model is tailor-made for foreign migrants. It inherently will not work well for UK-based employees. Simply increasing wages is not going to resolve the issues here.
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In Australia you can make $2K to $3K per week picking fruit, depending on the hours and how fast you are.
Paid on pick rate, if you lazy don't bother.
Some fruits harder to pick than others.
A lot pickers tend to work for 6 months then take 6 months off.
Not a bad lifestyle.
 
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Atilla said:
Get ready to eat GM shit.

Fury as government waters down post-Brexit food standards | Brexit | The Guardian

Strategy described as ‘missed opportunity’ as final wording merely commits to ‘considering’ animal welfare
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com

Courtesy of Brexit bringing GM food, also known as obesity on steroids.
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Yes, the British Empire might get big again, but not in the way anyone wants it to.🤮
www.cornucopia.org

Obesity, Corn, GMOs - Cornucopia Institute

Brattleboro.com Anthony Samsel If you want to avoid obesity, then avoid eating genetically engineered ( GE ) corn, corn based products and animals that
www.cornucopia.org www.cornucopia.org
 
Oscar Reed said:
In Australia you can make $2K to $3K per week picking fruit, depending on the hours and how fast you are.
Paid on pick rate, if you lazy don't bother.
Some fruits harder to pick than others.
A lot pickers tend to work for 6 months then take 6 months off.
Not a bad lifestyle.
Click to expand...
My nephew did exactly this a few years ago picking mangoes. I forget what he was being paid, but it was nowhere near $2 - $3k and his accommodation was a shipping container shared with other workers and no air conditioning!
That said, he did have an amazing time, met some great people and he can't speak highly enough of your great country, Oscar.
Tim.
 
Rufus_Leakey said:
Yes, the British Empire might get big again, but not in the way anyone wants it to.🤮
www.cornucopia.org

Obesity, Corn, GMOs - Cornucopia Institute

Brattleboro.com Anthony Samsel If you want to avoid obesity, then avoid eating genetically engineered ( GE ) corn, corn based products and animals that
www.cornucopia.org www.cornucopia.org
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Yes absolutely.

Brexiteers and motor mouth Farage (tosser of a man) moaned about the red tape and the higher farming standards of the EU - which the British NFU raised in the EU by the way so we could compete on equal footing.

EU is now keeping these higher (what were British) standards and as discussed UK planning to move ahead with the US model, implementing GM cheap shit to maximise corporate profits at the expense of public health. This in turn will raise costs to NHS.

Crazy doesn't say it. Your government maximising corporate profits and nationalising human cost.

95% of all antibiotics are given to healthy animals maintained in piss poor environments so they don't fall to disease. Humans then consume the shit through their diet and then become immune to AB's when they need them.

Then there is that tosser Jacob who said outside of the EU we could import cheaper foodstuffs from rest of the world 000s of miles away. With energy inflation and rises in the cost of fuel, how is that working out for the dick?

Consequence of Brexit coming to a supermarket near you, very soon. 😡
 
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Atilla said:
Yes absolutely.

Brexiteers and motor mouth Farage (tosser of a man) moaned about the red tape and the higher farming standards of the EU - which the British NFU raised in the EU by the way so we could compete on equal footing.

EU are now keeping these higher (what were British) standards and as discussed UK planning to move ahead with the US model, implementing GM cheap shit to maximise corporate profits at the expense of public health. This in turn will raise costs to NHS.

Crazy doesn't say it. Your government maximising corporate profits and nationalising human cost.

95% of all antibiotics are given to healthy animals maintained in piss poor environments so they don't fall to desease. Humans then consume the shit and then become immune to AB's when they need them.

Then there is that tosser Jacob who said outside of the EU we could import cheaper foodstuffs from rest of the worlds 000s of miles away. With energy inflation and cost of fuel how is that working out for the dick?

Consequence of Brexit coming to a supermarket near you, very soon. 😡
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At some point the UK was always going to leave the EU. The alternative was the continuing probability of becoming a province of a European super-state. This would have been inherently anti-democratic.

The laws we pass in the UK are now up to us. All governments have passed bad laws. But at least in the UK, the governments that pass bad laws will be punishable by UK voters, and those that pass good laws will be likewise rewarded. The alternative would have been to live under the EU's good laws and bad laws, yet have inadequate democratic redress.
 
tomorton said:
At some point the UK was always going to leave the EU. The alternative was the continuing probability of becoming a province of a European super-state. This would have been inherently anti-democratic.

The laws we pass in the UK are now up to us. All governments have passed bad laws. But at least in the UK, the governments that pass bad laws will be punishable by UK voters, and those that pass good laws will be likewise rewarded. The alternative would have been to live under the EU's good laws and bad laws, yet have inadequate democratic redress.
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I'm prepared to accept the valid point you make here but in the name of democracy, however, let us not forget the UK was equally represented in the EU parliament in a fair and democratic way based on population and voting seats/rights.

Just simply a case of what the public wanted.

The public's wants and desires were driven by lies and deceit. This should be becoming apparent to the voters in due course.
 
tomorton said:
At some point the UK was always going to leave the EU. The alternative was the continuing probability of becoming a province of a European super-state. This would have been inherently anti-democratic.
Click to expand...
EU is something between democracy and technocracy, it is a very filtered and indirect democracy, it is a way to counter populism.
Often the best decision is not the most popular, often national politicians are more worried to win the next elections than to take the best decisions.
 
Atilla said:
I'm prepared to accept the valid point you make here but in the name of democracy, however, let us not forget the UK was equally represented in the EU parliament in a fair and democratic way based on population and voting seats/rights.

Just simply a case of what the public wanted.

The public's wants and desires were driven by lies and deceit. This should be becoming apparent to the voters in due course.
Click to expand...
The EU as a body has structurally and procedurally nothing like the level of voter democracy that benefits the British in the UK.

In addition, although obviously British citizens could elect MEP's but these representatives would always be seriously outnumbered by MEP's from all the other member states. Foreign MEP's with little stake in our country's well-being would continue to have the major say in drafting laws which apply to us here. Hard to see how that is anything but an erosion of British democracy.

Worth bearing in mind what sort of "democratic" club the EU is. Apart from Germany, the next largest EU member states, in order of population are all classed as "flawed democracies" - France, Italy, Spain, Poland. Again, hard to think that gifting authority to representatives that we can't vote against from flawed foreign regimes that we didn't elect would be pro-democracy for the UK.

Many voters in all elections in all countries in all history are habitually misled by lies and deceit. All politicians in all parties use half-truths and obscuration in their quest for power and avoidance of responsibility. the Brexit campaign was not uniquely untruthful or deceitful. If the referendum was held in any time the result would eventually be "Leave" - because at heart, the majority of British voters understood that the end-game for an EU member is annexation.
 
tomorton said:
The EU as a body has structurally and procedurally nothing like the level of voter democracy that benefits the British in the UK.

In addition, although obviously British citizens could elect MEP's but these representatives would always be seriously outnumbered by MEP's from all the other member states. Foreign MEP's with little stake in our country's well-being would continue to have the major say in drafting laws which apply to us here. Hard to see how that is anything but an erosion of British democracy.

Worth bearing in mind what sort of "democratic" club the EU is. Apart from Germany, the next largest EU member states, in order of population are all classed as "flawed democracies" - France, Italy, Spain, Poland. Again, hard to think that gifting authority to representatives that we can't vote against from flawed foreign regimes that we didn't elect would be pro-democracy for the UK.

Many voters in all elections in all countries in all history are habitually misled by lies and deceit. All politicians in all parties use half-truths and obscuration in their quest for power and avoidance of responsibility. the Brexit campaign was not uniquely untruthful or deceitful. If the referendum was held in any time the result would eventually be "Leave" - because at heart, the majority of British voters understood that the end-game for an EU member is annexation.
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I think some of the smaller flawed democratic countries such as the PIGS would probably prefer to be led by the EU parliament rather than their own corrupt and bent politicians. All a matter of degree.

The likes of the Brexiteers and what they are doing to the UK may well bring that home to them. GM food being a case in point. Who serves them better and where do their interests lie?

UK is moving towards becoming 51st state of US, where powerful corporations and lobby groups can sue governments and set national policy. Where the inequities in the distribution of wealth is far greater than the EU.

We are moving to a very pear shaped post-brexit outcome imo.

💡
 
tomorton said:
Worth bearing in mind what sort of "democratic" club the EU is. Apart from Germany, the next largest EU member states, in order of population are all classed as "flawed democracies" - France, Italy, Spain, Poland. Again, hard to think that gifting authority to representatives that we can't vote against from flawed foreign regimes that we didn't elect would be pro-democracy for the UK.
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en.wikipedia.org

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Fair point!
BTW the average of Germany, Italy, France and Spain is 8.07 vs 8.10 for UK. 😉
We are flawed but not so much...
 
Atilla said:
I think some of the smaller flawed democratic countries such as the PIGS would probably prefer to be led by the EU parliament rather than their own corrupt and bent politicians. All a matter of degree.

The likes of the Brexiteers and what they are doing to the UK may well bring that home to them. GM food being a case in point. Who serves them better and where do their interests lie?

UK is moving towards becoming 51st state of US, where powerful corporations and lobby groups can sue governments and set national policy. Where the inequities in the distribution of wealth is far greater than the EU.

We are moving to a very pear shaped post-brexit outcome imo.

💡
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If I was a citizen of one of the PIGS countries I would be appalled to be ruled by a bunch of kleptocratic glad-handers. However, I would still not abandon my country's sovereignty for all time to a foreign bunch of neo-Marxist kleptocratic glad-handers.

The UK will make its own policies and its up to us how good or bad they are. The British will get the sort of government that the British deserve. But at least it will not be the sort of government that some foreign people think the British deserve.
 
tomorton said:
If I was a citizen of one of the PIGS countries I would be appalled to be ruled by a bunch of kleptocratic glad-handers. However, I would still not abandon my country's sovereignty for all time to a foreign bunch of neo-Marxist kleptocratic glad-handers.

The UK will make its own policies and its up to us how good or bad they are. The British will get the sort of government that the British deserve. But at least it will not be the sort of government that some foreign people think the British deserve.
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I wouldn't abandon Parliament and would fight to keep it free yes indeed. I'm with you 100% on that.

The EU club is an agreement which we signed up to and I felt it worked really really well giving us prosperity.

As with the take back control club, I fear you are imagining a hypothetical scenario which is far removed from reality. The club has rules and agreements. There are different level of membership too.

So how has the UK improved since taking back control. What was so appalling that we are doing so much better now?

Listening to Radio-4, University projects of all sorts are really struggling to get funding from the EU. Government not stepping in to compensate either.

What deals have we made in the last 6 years that we were unable to do before?

Apparently, the vaccine go / no-go decision was made ultra fast but UK deaths not much difference but even worse than our European ones.

LBC started a show about benefits of Brexit and it basically whimpered out in less than an hour because no one called in. Those who did to complain got turned away because it was about benefits of Brexit.

I don't see how leaving the EU has improved our lives at all.

I didn't see how my freedom or democracy was curtailed being a member of the EU either.

I feel control has been taken away from by virtue of additional restrictions about what I can do and not do in Europe.

How has my right to vote either at LA or National level changed. What more control do I have that I didn't have before?

It's crazy. So many Brexiteer words with no meaning. 😵
 
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Atilla said:
So how has the UK improved since taking back control. What was so appalling that we are doing so much better now?
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Theoretically UK has more money to allocate now.
If there is no improvement it means that EU was a better allocator than UK, happens when who allocates the money is not worried to win the next eletions....
 
CavaliereVerde said:
Theoretically UK has more money to allocate now.
If there is no improvement it means that EU was a better allocator than UK, happens when who allocates the money is not worried to win the next eletions....
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Yes spot on. This happens at LA level too. Central party give money to marginal seats where they can win votes and seats based on politics rather than ROI or productivity benefits on expenditure.

Safe seat councils get less money from the central pot.

Politics is sooo dirty and lacks principals.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
Makes sense, UK has the right to be wrong.
More democracy but worse decisions.
Cheap food is the popular decision, while healthy food is the best one.
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Right or wrong, British laws must be made by a British government, elected by the British people. Its inherently impossible to be a citizen of a country which is run by people from other countries. That would not be a country, it would be a colony. Or at best a protectorate.

Its also incoherent to have faith that European politicians would make decisions more in Britain's interests than British politicians would.
 
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