Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Try answering the question?

The Supreme Court has.

Who am I to disagree?

Some people are full of them selves don't you think?

 

[Signalcalc]

The Supreme Court has.

Who am I to disagree?

Disagreeing with a court decision is a perfectly legitimate position to take, acting on that disagreement would be illegal.

Maybe only the spineless never question, maybe the spineless won't provide a vote of no confidence, maybe only the spineless will not face the electorate?

 

[Atilla]

Disagreeing with a court decision is a perfectly legitimate position to take, acting on that disagreement would be illegal.

Maybe only the spineless never question, maybe the spineless won't provide a vote of no confidence, maybe only the spineless will not face the electorate?

Maybe BJ should appeal to the European CoJ if he disagrees so strongly then?

LOL

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

Well who are these remoaners then?

Anyone who voted remain that doesn't accept the referendum result and wants to thwart it and/ or overturn it. That's most parliamentarians, ably supported by MSM and academia etc., etc.

Just let’s recap. The referendum result was to leave but left it to parliament to decide the how and when. So far as I know the majority in Parliament accepted the leave result but cannot agree on the “how”except to say that “no deal” is unacceptable. That may be seen as thwarting the referendum result by the hard liners who are quite happy with “no deal”, but it seems quite reasonable to me.

This argument is poor Jon, sorry. Sure, the ballot paper made no mention of 'no-deal', but it also made no mention of a deal. If the vote had gone the other way and leave voters shouted foul play on the grounds that there was no mention of the terms that we remained in the EU - I suspect you and fellow remainers would have no truck with that. It was made clear prior to the referendum what leaving meant so, as a bare minimum, we must leave it's main institutions. That's clear as day to all Brexiteers because it was spelled out by Cameron and was in the leaflet that he published that was delivered to every home in the land.

It thus behoves the administration to come up with an acceptable solution and it is no answer just to ignore parliamentary democracy (which is our system - not government by referendum) and plough on towards a “no deal” exit. Without a majority - and making matters worse by removing the whip from 21 party supporters - there is no real answer other than to seek a mandate from the country for their approach. Given the shackles of fixed term parliament and in the absence of sufficient votes for a general election it seems that only a further referendum asking whether “no deal” is acceptable or not can clear the impasse unless one is prepared for the administration to behave as a dictatorship.

No need for another referendum, let's cut to the chase and have a general election. Of course, save for the Brexit Party, all the opposition parties don't want one as they know they'll lose and - to quote Trump - the swamp will be drained.

My own view is that you can’t keep praying the referendum result in aid as a justification for ignoring parliamentary democracy since the result was “leave” not “leave with no deal”. It’s all very sad but maybe Boris will pull a deal rabbit out of the hat, although it seems unlikely..

Not too sure how or why you think I'm ignoring parliamentary democracy. That said, I no longer respect it for the simple reason that so many MPs are duplicitous and have zero respect for the people who elected them. There are many reasons for this - let's just pick one - Article 50. This stated that we'd leave with or without a deal on March 29th and MPs voted overwhelmingly in favour of it. Many of those same MPs are now openly wanting to stop no-neal and, in the case of the LibDems, wanting to revoke Article 50 altogether. You simply can't get elected on one mandate and then change your mind when you're in power and - not just do something different - but the complete opposite. It's completely unacceptable; hence the talk of 'people Vs parliament' which will ensure these morally derelict MPs get their comeuppance at the next general election.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Not too sure how or why you think I'm ignoring parliamentary democracy. That said, I no longer respect it for the simple reason that so many MPs are duplicitous and have zero respect for the people who elected them.

Funny how you think this but don't apply the same to Cameron and Osborn who are equal POS's for lying to the British public about out means out and scare mongering.

It doesn't matter what they thought or said. It would be down to parliament to approve and make it so.


Stop and think for a minute.

 

[timsk]

Hi At'

Funny how you think this but don't apply the same to Cameron and Osborn who are equal POS's for lying to the British public about out means out and scare mongering.

Not too sure what it is that I am - or am not - applying to Cameron and Osborne? If you're talking about respect for MPs - then, along with the bulk of the current crop, I don't have much for them either.

It doesn't matter what they thought or said. It would be down to parliament to approve and make it so.

You're correct about what they thought, but not about what they said. Ditto for all PMs. They can't say one thing to get elected and then do the complete opposite in the HoC. This is simple, basic stuff, there's nothing in the least bit contentious about it.

Stop and think for a minute.

The inference of this comment is that I haven't given the matter of Brexit serious thought. Do please stop and think about what you write before hitting the 'Post Reply' button. Many of your posts read like stream of consciousness poetry or pop lyrics and are often no more intelligible than same. Apologies in advance for being patronising, but may I suggest in future that you re-read your comments at least once before posting and ask yourself this question every time: is this post clear and how can it be improved? Any subsequent judicious editing will be gratefully appreciated by everyone!
;-)
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Hi At'

Not too sure what it is that I am - or am not - applying to Cameron and Osborne? If you're talking about respect for MPs - then, along with the bulk of the current crop, I don't have much for them either.

You're correct about what they thought, but not about what they said. Ditto for all PMs. They can't say one thing to get elected and then do the complete opposite in the HoC. This is simple, basic stuff, there's nothing in the least bit contentious about it.

The inference of this comment is that I haven't given the matter of Brexit serious thought. Do please stop and think about what you write before hitting the 'Post Reply' button. Many of your posts read like stream of consciousness poetry or pop lyrics and are often no more intelligible than same. Apologies in advance for being patronising, but may I suggest in future that you re-read your comments at least once before posting and ask yourself this question every time: is this post clear and how can it be improved? Any subsequent judicious editing will be gratefully appreciated by everyone!
;-)
Tim.

Scrap MPs, scrap Parliament, scrap HoLs, scrap Supreme Court and replace them with what exactly?

MPs who wave their Brexiteer wands because they are the only ones who can be trusted.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,

Anyone who voted remain that doesn't accept the referendum result and wants to thwart it and/ or overturn it. That's most parliamentarians, ably supported by MSM and academia etc., etc.


This argument is poor Jon, sorry. Sure, the ballot paper made no mention of 'no-deal', but it also made no mention of a deal. If the vote had gone the other way and leave voters shouted foul play on the grounds that there was no mention of the terms that we remained in the EU - I suspect you and fellow remainers would have no truck with that. It was made clear prior to the referendum what leaving meant so, as a bare minimum, we must leave it's main institutions. That's clear as day to all Brexiteers because it was spelled out by Cameron and was in the leaflet that he published that was delivered to every home in the land.


No need for another referendum, let's cut to the chase and have a general election. Of course, save for the Brexit Party, all the opposition parties don't want one as they know they'll lose and - to quote Trump - the swamp will be drained.


Not too sure how or why you think I'm ignoring parliamentary democracy. That said, I no longer respect it for the simple reason that so many MPs are duplicitous and have zero respect for the people who elected them. There are many reasons for this - let's just pick one - Article 50. This stated that we'd leave with or without a deal on March 29th and MPs voted overwhelmingly in favour of it. Many of those same MPs are now openly wanting to stop no-neal and, in the case of the LibDems, wanting to revoke Article 50 altogether. You simply can't get elected on one mandate and then change your mind when you're in power and - not just do something different - but the complete opposite. It's completely unacceptable; hence the talk of 'people Vs parliament' which will ensure these morally derelict MPs get their comeuppance at the next general election.
Tim.

Didn’t mean you as in you, but you as in you - if you see what I mean

 

[counter_violent]

Maybe BJ should appeal to the European CoJ if he disagrees so strongly then?

LOL

That's the most sensible thing you have said in the last 4 years.

Get the European court to uphold the ruling.

Would make leaving a doddle, given the landslide that would follow an election.

So i'll say it again. All Brexiters need to do is carry on provoking remoaners and the EU to ensure that the UK voting public end up so infuriated with our blocker MP's, the biased establishment, the EU, the MSM, and that we leave with No Deal and to hell with the lot of them.

 

[Atilla]

That's the most sensible thing you have said in the last 4 years.

Would make leaving a doddle, given the landslide that would follow an election.

So i'll say it again. All Brexiters need to do is carry on provoking remoaners and the EU to ensure that the UK voting public end up so infuriated with our blocker MP's, the biased establishment, and that we leave with No Deal and to hell with the lot of them.

LOL

I'm thinking likewise, British public will see where Brexiteers are planning on taking the country.

Landslide you say... for the LibDems maybe.

As for the Tory / Labour or Brexit party it will be clear enough to see very soon.

LibDems only party to hold onto their principals despite only gaining dozen or seats in previous election? They didn't change their tune. Labour and Tories can't be trusted and Brexit party not much cop either.

 

[timsk]

Scrap MPs, scrap Parliament, scrap HoLs, scrap Supreme Court and replace them with what exactly.

Is this question rhetorical At'?
I've not suggested scrapping anything. My point is very simple: MPs need to be held to account in a manner that ensures their words have meaning and are backed up by their actions. By way of example, take my own MP: Dr. Sarah Wollaston. I've met her, I like her, and in some respects she's a good constituency MP. However, when I voted for her in 2017 (which was the first time I've ever voted Conservative), I did so because she stood on a platform to deliver Brexit. No other reason. Fast forward two years, she's now switched to the Illiberal Undemocrats and is pledging to stop Brexit altogether. Surely you can see the issue here?

It's obvious to many people - I'd go so far as to say to most people - that:
A) If she wasn't prepared to deliver Brexit in accordance with the Tory manifesto and Article 50 - then she should not have stood as their candidate at the last election.
B) If she changed her mind after the election, (unlikely but just conceivable I suppose), - then she ought to have resigned her seat to trigger a by-election. Sadly, it turns pout that she's one of the morally bankrupt MPs. I'd almost rather have her predecessor who was booted out for using his expenses to build a duck house. Of the two offences, in my book, Dr. Wollaston's is by far and away the most serious.

The system we have currently works well enough so long as MPs behave honourably and do the 'right' thing by the constituents who elect them. It's basic, basic stuff. And if they all focused on that one simple thing - which surely isn't a big ask - then the country wouldn't be in the mess that it's currently in.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Is this question rhetorical At'?
I've not suggested scrapping anything. My point is very simple: MPs need to be held to account in a manner that ensures their words have meaning and are backed up by their actions. By way of example, take my own MP: Dr. Sarah Wollaston. I've met her, I like her, and in some respects she's a good constituency MP. However, when I voted for her in 2017 (which was the first time I've ever voted Conservative), I did so because she stood on a platform to deliver Brexit. No other reason. Fast forward two years, she's now switched to the Illiberal Undemocrats and is pledging to stop Brexit altogether. Surely you can see the issue here?

It's obvious to many people - I'd go so far as to say to most people - that:
A) If she wasn't prepared to deliver Brexit in accordance with the Tory manifesto and Article 50 - then she should not have stood as their candidate at the last election.
B) If she changed her mind after the election, (unlikely but just conceivable I suppose), - then she ought to have resigned her seat to trigger a by-election. Sadly, it turns pout that she's one of the morally bankrupt MPs. I'd almost rather have her predecessor who was booted out for using his expenses to build a duck house. Of the two offences, in my book, Dr. Wollaston's is by far and away the most serious.

The system we have currently works well enough so long as MPs behave honourably and do the 'right' thing by the constituents who elect them. It's basic, basic stuff. And if they all focused on that one simple thing - which surely isn't a big ask - then the country wouldn't be in the mess that it's currently in.
Tim.

My point is dear Timsk, you should treat all MPs the same.

So you are quite happy to chug along as if Cameron and Osborne spoke the Gospel and now suddenly you feel they really didn't mean what they say or meant.

By the same token you seem to think Brexiteers the Farages and various other MPs speak the truth and somehow remainers don't.

Brexiteers like naive little kiddos keep repeating the line "but you promised me icecream". Daddy says, yes that was when the sun was out. It's now raining cats n dogs.

Tomorrow you'll be barking about Brexiteers who have promised you loadsa international bilateral trade deals and reduced prices but will deliver to the public, higher shopping trolley prices, lower wages and smaller GDP.

I think it's pretty simple what's going on here. Not really worth taking Brexiteers seriously. Give'm enough rope and see how they stretch them selves out.

The country is crying out for another referendum on Brexit or an election. That should be clear to most. Only then can all this fiasco can work it self through.

As I have raised before. There is no hurry to get this sorted out. If Brexit is the will of the people it will come to be. No worries. As long as the course of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny takes place and is voted through.

Geesh anybody would think democracy was a one time event and like Brexiteers are the know it all guardians of our great democracy. Get over your self-indulgent selves. Come up for air. Stop dramatising. Get a life.

 

[Signalcalc]

My point is dear Timsk, you should treat all MPs the same.

So you are quite happy to chug along as if Cameron and Osborne spoke the Gospel and now suddenly you feel they really didn't mean what they say or meant.

By the same token you seem to think Brexiteers the Farages and various other MPs speak the truth and somehow remainers don't.

Brexiteers like naive little kiddos keep repeating the line "but you promised me icecream". Daddy says, yes that was when the sun was out. It's now raining cats n dogs.

Tomorrow you'll be barking about Brexiteers who have promised you loadsa international bilateral trade deals and reduced prices but will deliver to the public, higher shopping trolley prices, lower wages and smaller GDP.

I think it's pretty simple what's going on here. Not really worth taking Brexiteers seriously. Give'm enough rope and see how they stretch them selves out.

The country is crying out for another referendum on Brexit or an election. That should be clear to most. Only then can all this fiasco can work it self through.

As I have raised before. There is no hurry to get this sorted out. If Brexit is the will of the people it will come to be. No worries. As long as the course of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny takes place and is voted through.

Geesh anybody would think democracy was a one time event and like Brexiteers are the know it all guardians of our great democracy. Get over your self-indulgent selves. Come up for air. Stop dramatising. Get a life.

You're wasting breath keyboard time @timsk, remoaners either don't get it or choose not to get it. @Atilla, to my mind, represents a great majority of remoaners, who, like their leaders, wish nothing more than to reverse Brexit, to support the illibundems/SNP is to support cancelling Art.50, no if's, no but's, that's the way it is.

Of course remainers have a legitimate argument, remoaners take it one step further by bending the rules and process of parliament to suit their remoan agenda, it's quite simple really, they won't go to the polls, they know what's coming to them, in spades, well 52% spades that is, they would rather hold the PM to ransom than to play fair and let the electorate decide, it's only delaying the inevitable, they hope to delay it for long enough, but there is always an end to a piece of string

The hypocrite remoaners cry that they have been silenced when porogued, but then silence the electorate, the only partner in this whole debacle that has been unable to say anything for 2+ years now is the electorate, and yet they bleat about being silenced themselves, what twots they are, unemployed twots they will soon be, a zombie parliament living dead already on borrowed time.

 

[Signalcalc]

I reckon the supreme court remoaners may have shot themselves in the foot, so much material for this thread, parliament is on fire, this thread is on fire, roll on an election 🔥🔥🔥🔥

 

[Signalcalc]

So now we find out why the supreme court was setup by B.liar in 2009.

Tony Blair prosecution over Iraq war blocked by judges

High court rules that there is no crime of aggression in English law under which former PM could be charged

t.co

 

[timsk]

At',
I'm going to decline Sig's excellent advice as I find your misinterpretation of my post and non-sequiturs need correcting.

My point is dear Timsk, you should treat all MPs the same.

I do. As I have stated on this very thread, I expect ALL of them to do two simple things:
1. To act with humility and remember those who elected them.
2. To act honourably and with integrity.
That's all they have to do - not a big ask. Dr. Sarah Wollaston - my MP - has failed on both counts.

So you are quite happy to chug along as if Cameron and Osborne spoke the Gospel and now suddenly you feel they really didn't mean what they say or meant.

I never claimed - or even suggested - that Cameron and Osborne "spoke the Gospel". Their statements about the referendum are recorded facts in black and and in radio and television interviews.

By the same token you seem to think Brexiteers the Farages and various other MPs speak the truth and somehow remainers don't.

A non-sequitur that has no baring on the points currently under discussion. For the record, as a brexiteer I agree with a lot of their views - but by no means all. And I've never said or even implied that brexiteers speak the truth and leavers lie. I don't look at the situation in such a polarised way. For example, I've acknowledged the fair points you and Jon have made on this thread and am happy to continue to do so.

Brexiteers like naive little kiddos keep repeating the line "but you promised me icecream". Daddy says, yes that was when the sun was out. It's now raining cats n dogs.

The situation hasn't changed at all. Correction, it has in as much as more people are aware now than they were three years ago that the EU is a club we're best out of.

Tomorrow you'll be barking about Brexiteers who have promised you loadsa international bilateral trade deals and reduced prices but will deliver to the public, higher shopping trolley prices, lower wages and smaller GDP.

You're getting muddled At'. It's you who'll be doing the barking on that score - not me.

I think it's pretty simple what's going on here. Not really worth taking Brexiteers seriously. Give'm enough rope and see how they stretch them selves out.

Pot, kettle, black. That said, I do take remoaners seriously as I am truly shocked at the lengths they're prepared to stoop to in order to stop Brexit.

The country is crying out for another referendum on Brexit or an election. That should be clear to most. Only then can all this fiasco can work it self through.

At last, something we can agree on. No need for a referendum - a general election will serve the same purpose and can happen much sooner. Bring it on and watch the swamp get drained.

As I have raised before. There is no hurry to get this sorted out. If Brexit is the will of the people it will come to be. No worries. As long as the course of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny takes place and is voted through.

No hurry, you're kidding! The country is paralysed because of Brexit; the domestic agenda has been on the shelf for three years and the can just gets booted further down the road. It's gotta stop - and soon.

anybody would think democracy was a one time event and like Brexiteers are the know it all guardians of our great democracy. Get over your self-indulgent selves. Come up for air. Stop dramatising. Get a life.

I could accept this advice from almost anyone but you. Your saviour in all this is Joe Swinson and the Illiberal Undemocrats. As everyone knows, far from being the guardians of democracy, they are openly contemptuous of it. I'm genuinely embarrassed to say that I used to consider myself a liberal and have voted that way many times in the past. Never again! So yes, brexiteers are indeed the defenders of democracy.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

No hurry, you're kidding! The country is paralysed because of Brexit; the domestic agenda has been on the shelf for three years and the can just gets booted further down the road. It's gotta stop - and soon.

Life continues as we know it. Simply that there is a postponement of potential investment that would have taken place. Future decisions on where to locate may also find alternative homes no matter what the outcome is. Even if UK decides to become a safe haven, low corp tax economy as EU will put up barriers that's for sure. Brexit is damaging UK yes but leaving EU will be far worse.

As a reminder quite a few Brexiteers feel this isn't about the economy but more about EU migration. At least for now. They may be the ones leaving to EU once jobs are irrecoverably lost.

I could accept this advice from almost anyone but you. Your saviour in all this is Joe Swinson and the Illiberal Undemocrats. As everyone knows, far from being the guardians of democracy, they are openly contemptuous of it. I'm genuinely embarrassed to say that I used to consider myself a liberal and have voted that way many times in the past. Never again! So yes, brexiteers are indeed the defenders of democracy.

Well there you go again. Fixed mind set despite LibDems winning votes and MPs from all sides of the party divide. But hell no. You have had the referendum and that's the defining guideline for you. Guardian of the Democracy that you are.

Just one last question, if LibDems win the elections and take control of Parliament... and get sufficient numbers of MPs to vote against Brexit over-turning article 50, what will your pov be then?


Otherwise good post as always you are very civil and admirable conduct our MPs can learn from. Sadly, there is not much hope for me but one does try.

 

[Signalcalc]

After 3+ years of calling Brexiteers racists, xenophobes, fascists and Nazi's, now all of a sudden the snowflake MPs are upset by words such as capitulation, surrender, traitor, where's nazi soubrey when you need her

Johnson urged to apologise over Jo Cox comments

MPs condemn the PM's language, but the Tory party chairman says criticisms of him are "deeply unfair".

www.bbc.com

If you don't like the PM, get rid and let's have an election. The Labour benches had whipped themselves into a frenzy of Tory hate all day long, getting ready for the Boris show, what childish idiots, spending all day goading and then trying to turn it around on Boris.

 

[timsk]

. . .Just one last question, if LibDems win the elections and take control of Parliament... and get sufficient numbers of MPs to vote against Brexit over-turning article 50, what will your pov be then? . . .

At',
If you've read my posts carefully and given them even cursory consideration - you wouldn't need to ask this question. Firstly, the Illiberal Undemocrats haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of winning a general election but, nonetheless, I'm happy to play along with your 'pigs can fly' fantasy. . .

Assuming PPC's stick to their respective party's manifesto and, once elected, vote accordingly - then I'd accept that outcome. Just to be crystal clear, if Jo Swinson somehow manages to become PM and there's a vote in the HoC to revoke Article 50 - it's fine for her own party's MPs to back it because that's the manifesto they were elected on. However, for the sake of argument, if the vote to revoke Article 50 is carried by handful of rogue Tory MPs whose manifesto was clearly to deliver Brexit - with or without a deal - then no, I would not accept the outcome as the parliamentary democratic process would have been abused - just as is happening now. My position is rational, clear and very simple. It all comes back to MPs - of all parties, irrespective of their views on Brexit, showing humility and acting honourably.
Tim.

 

[NVP]

sorry Ive been busy elsewhere ......anything happened while ive been gone ....(he asked naively)

N