Brexit and the Consequences

[0007]

Mrs. May is completely untrustworthy

That is all you need to know about British politics at the moment.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,
Delaying tactics that could well lead to all sorts of outcomes besides a deal or no-deal.

I'm concerned about the meeting that Mrs. May had with Jeremy Corbyn yesterday which sounds as if it was much more cordial and productive than anyone expected. Mrs. May is completely untrustworthy and, on top of that, is determined to get her deal through no matter what. Bu88er the country and her own party - it's now personal for her. So, if necessary, she'll have no issues about 'buying' Corbyn's/Labour support. She then gets her lousy deal through and Labour get concessions. That doesn't necessarily mean agreeing to the latter's demands viz a viz Brexit - it could be something else that they badly want. For example - a general election the minute her deal is approved. That could work well for both party leaders.
Tim.

I don’t suppose you subscribe to the view that May’s deal may be the best that can be wrung out of the EU considering that they held most of the honour cards whilst she has had virtually none in her hand. I certainly don’t think she’s played a blinder but, equally, I don’t think she hasn’t had the best interests of the country at heart.

 

[timsk]

I don’t suppose you subscribe to the view that May’s deal may be the best that can be wrung out of the EU considering that they held most of the honour cards whilst she has had virtually none in her hand. I certainly don’t think she’s played a blinder but, equally, I don’t think she hasn’t had the best interests of the country at heart.

Hiya Jon,
Not sure if your question is rhetorical - as you can probably guess my answer - but I'll tell you anyway. Mrs. May's deal definitely isn't the best that can be wrung out of the EU - given that they volunteered a Canada +++ free trade deal last year that is a much better option. As for the EU holding most of the honour cards - I disagree - we've got 39 billion of them! ;-) I'd like to think Mrs. May's got the best interests of the country at heart - but I really struggle with that. The best I can say about her is that she's the wrong person for the job, is waaay out of her depth and is very naively trying to square the circle by producing a deal that unites the Tory party, appeals to both leavers and remainers whilst delivering on the referendum result. It can't be done - and the consequence (if her deal or variation of it goes through) will be an outcome with which just about everyone is unhappy. Sadly, that is exactly what I think will happen.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Hiya Jon,
Not sure if your question is rhetorical - as you can probably guess my answer - but I'll tell you anyway. Mrs. May's deal definitely isn't the best that can be wrung out of the EU - given that they volunteered a Canada +++ free trade deal last year that is a much better option. As for the EU holding most of the honour cards - I disagree - we've got 39 billion of them! ;-) I'd like to think Mrs. May's got the best interests of the country at heart - but I really struggle with that. The best I can say about her is that she's the wrong person for the job, is waaay out of her depth and is very naively trying to square the circle by producing a deal that unites the Tory party, appeals to both leavers and remainers whilst delivering on the referendum result. It can't be done - and the consequence (if her deal or variation of it goes through) will be an outcome with which just about everyone is unhappy. Sadly, that is exactly what I think will happen.
Tim.

I agree with your last bit. It’s all part of a devious plan to heal the fractures in our society caused by Brexit. We can all go forward in perfect harmony since we will all be equally dissatisfied with the final outcome .

 

[cantagril]

........ we will all be equally dissatisfied with the final outcome .

Yep.

 

[0007]

I agree with your last bit. It’s all part of a devious plan to heal the fractures in our society caused by Brexit. We can all go forward in perfect harmony since we will all be equally dissatisfied with the final outcome .

Isn't that the plain man's definition of socialism?

 

[Signalcalc]

Imagine a scenario where we leave without a deal and we don't pay £39Bn as the EU demands, how would they get the money from us? Impose sanctions?

 

[cantagril]

Imagine a scenario where we leave without a deal and we don't pay £39Bn as the EU demands, how would they get the money from us? Impose sanctions?

Sanctions, no....but duties, ummmm..........

 

[Signalcalc]

Sanctions, no....but duties, ummmm..........

Problem with either of those options is that it hurts both sides of the channel.

 

[Atilla]

Ok. As I see it if we are going to go - and all except me and Atilla think we should - then it can only be with a deal or without one. Anything else the MPs get up to can only be delaying tactics.

I think there are others; Splitlink, Cantagrill and Tomorton who was risk averse to leaving on balance. However, Split and Sir Canta probably don't count as they have deserted the Isles and Tomorton is well cheesed off and toasted by the whole sorry sad affair.

 

[Atilla]

Apparently, you won't be able to get a haircut after 29th March. All my friends are stocking up now.

Thanks guys, your quips always put a smile to my face at the end of a good day.

fwiw - I did indicate my position to him but as I have learned from you wonderful people, going into technical details, history or the economics of it all makes no sense to those who are far removed from European affairs.

 

[cantagril]

I think there are others; Splitlink, Cantagrill and Tomorton who was risk averse to leaving on balance. However, Split and Sir Canta probably don't count as they have deserted the Isles and Tomorton is well cheesed off and toasted by the whole sorry sad affair.

Aksherly, however it might appear, I am not averse to the idea of leaving per se nor am I rabidly pro-EU...or even pro-European. As for the current Brexit fiasco, just one of my objections (their name is legion) is the manner in which this whole sorry mess was "planned" - you will understand that I'm using the term very loosely here. Firstly, poor put-upon Cameron effectively decided that because he wasn't able to get anything out of the EU then, therefore nobody else could - nor would ever be able to. Secondly, it's blindingly obvious that neither he, nor what passes for the government, had thought through the implications of cutting the cord. So, with the starting point of not having a clue what would happen, they then come up with the brilliant idea of asking the "people" - who, naturally, know even less. I'm not sure whether it's a case of the Blind leading the Stupid or the Stupid leading the blind....but the map would appear to taking us toward cloud cuckoo-land via the garden path. The important thing is that the People have Spoken.

Here we are (wherever the fück that is) faced with undoing 40 years of deals, arrangements and agreements in...how many days do we have left now? ....and will it be suddenly better? I have no problem in admitting that I haven't a clue and that worries me because, rightly or wrongly, I'm pretty certain that I'm both better informed and more pragmatic than the majority of people who voted Remain or Leave. For the record, I didn't vote. Either way, it seemed to be a declaration of crass stupidity and I prefer to keep my failings to myself and as far from the business of running a country as possible.

To those who are certain that the only way is up: I admire your courage and optimism. For those who are less sure, just remember that that old adage - Just when you think things can't get worse........

For myself, turn-coat that I am, I think that despite the Gilets Jaunes and all the other stuff that we have in our neck of the vineyards instead of spectator sports, the future looks a lot more predictable and now that I am officially an Old Git, I rather like predictable and prefer to leave cutting off one's nose to spite one's face to the younger and more energetic.

Thank you. I feel much better. I've had my coffee and now I can get on with the serious business of incompetent trading.

A very good day to you all.

 

[barjon]

An Old Git that talks a lot of sense. Good day to you, too, cantagril

 

[0007]

Following on from #8756. Interesting isn't it, how just a few key people decide the course of events but subsequently lose effective control: Farage - Cameron - May. History shows us that it's always been the way.

 

[Signalcalc]

The sentiment regarding the politicians appears to be universal, they're clueless indeed.

In times of change (and change is the only constant in life ), there is always a level of uncertainty, it's BAU as far as I can see it - management haven't a clue and its left to the competent, overworked and underpaid workers to sort the mess out, which is what usually happens wether it is a small business, a global player or war!

The free market has a habit of working things through so that solutions are found, taking an example of Spanish tomato growers that truck their produce to the UK on a daily basis (presented as a balanced negative impact on BBC news the other evening). The port authorities have actually been planning for a no deal for ages (they are not government bodies but private companies), same for the truck companies and finally the growers, they are all prepped and ready to continue the supply regardless of the state of Brexit on the 29th March. The BBC started the report in a negative light, but it actually ended up positive (in my eyes at least).

There is a case of overthinking, over analysing, over procrastinating that we humans are prevalent to when uncertainty beckons, often taking a step back and keeping calm, carrying on is what eventually happens and 'things' get sorted. There is never a period of certainty in life, what we need is to balance the uncertain people with practical people who will get the job done.

 

[0007]

The sentiment regarding the politicians appears to be universal, they're clueless indeed.

In times of change (and change is the only constant in life ), there is always a level of uncertainty, it's BAU as far as I can see it - management haven't a clue and its left to the competent, overworked and underpaid workers to sort the mess out, which is what usually happens wether it is a small business, a global player or war!

The free market has a habit of working things through so that solutions are found, taking an example of Spanish tomato growers that truck their produce to the UK on a daily basis (presented as a balanced negative impact on BBC news the other evening). The port authorities have actually been planning for a no deal for ages (they are not government bodies but private companies), same for the truck companies and finally the growers, they are all prepped and ready to continue the supply regardless of the state of Brexit on the 29th March. The BBC started the report in a negative light, but it actually ended up positive (in my eyes at least).

There is a case of overthinking, over analysing, over procrastinating that we humans are prevalent to when uncertainty beckons, often taking a step back and keeping calm, carrying on is what eventually happens and 'things' get sorted. There is never a period of certainty in life, what we need is to balance the uncertain people with practical people who will get the job done.

I think the difference is that the free market has a single important aim (forget all the window dressing stuff about the environment etc etc) and that is to get the job done in the most efficient way for the business. I heard someone remark that it's funny how businesses can find ways to avoid paying taxes and all the rest of it, so it won't be at all surprising if they find ways of coping with Brexit. Politicians, Sir Humphrey-type civil servants and the rest of them "that know so much" and probably couldn't even run a whelk stall profitably, can only find efficient ways to further their own agendas – sometimes, just by chance, this coincides with the interests of business and the country. The few MPs with business experience always have difficulty in getting the rest to take notice of their experienced-based views. Professional politicians who've never had a proper job are, by & large, a waste of time IMHO.

 

[Signalcalc]

Politicians, Sir Humphrey-type civil servants and the rest of them "that know so much" and probably couldn't even run a whelk stall profitably, can only find efficient ways to further their own agendas – sometimes, just by chance, this coincides with the interests of business and the country. The few MPs with business experience always have difficulty in getting the rest to take notice of their experienced-based views. Professional politicians who've never had a proper job are, by & large, a waste of time IMHO.

I am guessing here (but it makes logical sense to me), is it a coincidence that career politicians are of a similar ilk, e.g. born into privileged, powerful families, with a history of politics, plenty of money and back room deals, privately educated oxbridge types, born in and around London, from cradle to grave destined for politics and overseeing whatever family business they happen to be born into i.e. in modern parlance 'the elites'. There is very little variance in this stereotypical demographic. They arrive in the house of commons with all the knowledge of history and Uni debating societies, they know their political adversaries very well as they spent many years in the same classes and lecture halls. These elites make up the vast majority of the houses of parliament.

Non-career politicians are literally anyone else outside the elite bubble, probably doing it for the greater good, for the communities they know, for the people and the country.

As long as career politicians exist we will be stuck with the status quo, 2 party swinging bullsh1t until the end of time, the only way I could see it changing is for people to wake up and start voting for non-career politicians that exist outside the Tory, Labour and other mainstream parties. Unfortunately those potentials seem to be rather thin on the ground as the 'old boys and girls' clubs have the whole thing stitched up nicely.

Has Brexit changed anyones perception of Westminster, it has mine, I like to think I am more aware of what has been happening for decades, I like to think lots of other people have also woken up, the next general election could get interesting as long as people don't go back to sleep.

 

[Signalcalc]

Just seen that the House of Commons has 32 working days left until Brexit.

[emoji23]

 

[barjon]

I think the difference is that the free market has a single important aim (forget all the window dressing stuff about the environment etc etc) and that is to get the job done in the most efficient way for the business. I heard someone remark that it's funny how businesses can find ways to avoid paying taxes and all the rest of it, so it won't be at all surprising if they find ways of coping with Brexit. Politicians, Sir Humphrey-type civil servants and the rest of them "that know so much" and probably couldn't even run a whelk stall profitably, can only find efficient ways to further their own agendas – sometimes, just by chance, this coincides with the interests of business and the country. The few MPs with business experience always have difficulty in getting the rest to take notice of their experienced-based views. Professional politicians who've never had a proper job are, by & large, a waste of time IMHO.

.....and yet, without politicians we’d probably still have the slave trade, no free schooling, no free health care, nor most of the social benefits that make our country such a civilised place to live.

 

[cantagril]

I am guessing here (but it makes logical sense to me), is it a coincidence that career politicians are of a similar ilk, e.g. born into privileged, powerful families, with a history of politics, plenty of money and back room deals, privately educated oxbridge types, born in and around London, from cradle to grave destined for politics and overseeing whatever family business they happen to be born into i.e. in modern parlance 'the elites'. There is very little variance in this stereotypical demographic. They arrive in the house of commons with all the knowledge of history and Uni debating societies, they know their political adversaries very well as they spent many years in the same classes and lecture halls. These elites make up the vast majority of the houses of parliament.

Non-career politicians are literally anyone else outside the elite bubble, probably doing it for the greater good, for the communities they know, for the people and the country.
..... .

With the utmost respect: COBBLERS!

Corruption, venality and self-interest are not the preserve of toffs. There is a certain level of inverse snobbery extant in present media circles where anyone who's been to private school is somehow tainted and not "genuine" whereas working-class made good are automatically salt-of-the-earth good, honest folk with the best interests of the general population close to their hearts. It is my experience that once newcomers realise that they have joined the club that awards them a place at the trough they get progressively more reluctant to withdraw their snouts. I would draw your attention to the not so distant MP expenses scandal where the great and the good from both sides of the House were seen to be very keen on remaining more equal than others.

To accord you your due with regard to the privileged Oxbridge types, it is completely true that the Public Schools and Universities were seen as being for the education of the ruling class; though there has been some headway in making entry more egalitarian I would agree that there is a long way to go but would question whether that will bring about any improvements in the UK political apparatus.