Brexit and the Consequences

[barjon]

I want to hear what Trump thinks about this surrender proposal. I'm sure he will have plenty to say about it.

The trouble with the Brexit position (not yours) is the belief that there is a deal to be had that allows us to enjoy most of the benefits we enjoy as members without taking on most of the EU legislation and rules that surround those benefits. That’s not really a logical or sustainable position.

You have always recognised that there’s really no choice but a hard Brexit if we are to “take back control” to the degree that the leavers aspire to. Very few on the political scene think a hard exit would be anything but seriously damaging. So we are where we are

 

[sminicooper]

The trouble with the Brexit position (not yours) is the belief that there is a deal to be had that allows us to enjoy most of the benefits we enjoy as members without taking on most of the EU legislation and rules that surround those benefits. That’s not really a logical or sustainable position.

You have always recognised that there’s really no choice but a hard Brexit if we are to “take back control” to the degree that the leavers aspire to. Very few on the political scene think a hard exit would be anything but seriously damaging. So we are where we are

Spot on! Hardline Brexiteers understand that if we are to take back control then we have to forego all/some of the so-called privileges of EU membership. I've never been able to understand the wacky idea that we can have both. It's a shame that Theresa May hasn't (publicly) worked that out also – she's had to cave in in the end it now seems. Maybe if we had taken that stance from the beginning then the negotiations would have had a different outcome.

 

[sminicooper]

Bad deal better than no deal



If this goes through it will finish the Conservatives.

 

[Splitlink]

Spot on! Hardline Brexiteers understand that if we are to take back control then we have to forego all/some of the so-called privileges of EU membership. I've never been able to understand the wacky idea that we can have both. It's a shame that Theresa May hasn't (publicly) worked that out also – she's had to cave in in the end it now seems. Maybe if we had taken that stance from the beginning then the negotiations would have had a different outcome.

He's been spot on all along. My view is that cv and his Band of Merry Men have been playing the wrong tune for too long and it's gone off the hit parade.

The EU is not breaking up ---just yet. It may do, but not in time for the UK to pick up any pieces in the form of succulent trade deals.

Anyway, a little bird has told me that it's not all over, yet.

 

[Atilla]

Spot on! Hardline Brexiteers understand that if we are to take back control then we have to forego all/some of the so-called privileges of EU membership. I've never been able to understand the wacky idea that we can have both. It's a shame that Theresa May hasn't (publicly) worked that out also – she's had to cave in in the end it now seems. Maybe if we had taken that stance from the beginning then the negotiations would have had a different outcome.

If brexit means brexit, who are you making a distinction with when you say Hardline?

Is this like sort of a hard, medium or soft baked brexit thing?

As I understand it, there are about 20-80 hardline brexiteers in out of about 650 MPs.



wrt Barjon's post the trouble in belief he refers to is trouble with hardline brexit politicians who are hungry for power, who have peddled that belief to the British people as some kind of deliverable promises. The promised land indeed.

People like you who keep harking back to the war, have bought those beliefs not because they have any factual substance if they can be delivered but because you want to believe the rosy fantastic but obviously deceitful (as you claim to understand now as being non-deliverable) tosh they have told you.



Is this not clear enough to see?

 

[Atilla]

I want to hear what Trump thinks about this surrender proposal. I'm sure he will have plenty to say about it.

LOL - ooooohhhh Trump's going to speak about our Brexit deal.

Shows depths you have sunk to.

I think his more likely to tell you how he managed to keep his hair dry in France.


Who gives a flying hute what he thinks. British people living in EU didn't get to have a say on Brexit so what's it to that idiot.

 

[sminicooper]

LOL - ooooohhhh Trump's going to speak about our Brexit deal.

Shows depths you have sunk to.

I think his more likely to tell you how he managed to keep his hair dry in France.


Who gives a flying hute what he thinks. British people living in EU didn't get to have a say on Brexit so what's it to that idiot.

So the views of one of the most powerful men in the world aren't important?

 

[Atilla]

So the views of one of the most powerful men in the world aren't important?

He has the power to tear things down.

Has he managed to build that marvellous wall of his yet?


Betcha he thinks he can knock down TowerBridge and build one bigger and better the most fantastic bridge ever built in the history of all time.


Can you remind me what he said about NATO again.

 

[Pat494]

I doubt Mrs May will survive the current crisis over EU intransigence.
The DUP, some Tories and Labour all hate her plans. So a General Election soon but who will shine amongst the dummies currently in Parlt ?

Errrrr nobody on the horizon.

 

[sminicooper]

He has the power to tear things down.

Has he managed to build that marvellous wall of his yet?


Betcha he thinks he can knock down TowerBridge and build one bigger and better the most fantastic bridge ever built in the history of all time.


Can you remind me what he said about NATO again.

Without the USA there would have been no NATO.

 

[Atilla]

Without the USA there would have been no NATO.

Agreed

How many times has article 5 of the NATO agreement ever been used?

 

[counter_violent]

The trouble with the Brexit position (not yours) is the belief that there is a deal to be had that allows us to enjoy most of the benefits we enjoy as members without taking on most of the EU legislation and rules that surround those benefits. That’s not really a logical or sustainable position.

You have always recognised that there’s really no choice but a hard Brexit if we are to “take back control” to the degree that the leavers aspire to. Very few on the political scene think a hard exit would be anything but seriously damaging. So we are where we are

I can't ever remember a time where the UK wasn't either deceived or dragged kicking and screaming towards further integration with Europe. We have never been an enthusiastic player or leader within the EU, because as a country we fundamentally don't agree with the political vision and centralisation of power in the organisation.

The failure of our politicians is unprecedented in modern times. We have the worst PM, possibly ever, who was bounced into the job by the establishment who's only ambition was damage limitation at any cost. The failure of the political class is entirely understandable given that they have never had to make a serious decision throughout their career. All major policy decisions have been made in Europe, for the benefit of Europe and to the detriment of each member country. Our politicians have been reduced to party politics and points scoring over the more important issues which are the interests of the UK and the UK population.

Trump was elected because he tapped into the discontent amongst voters who rightly understood that their liberties and freedoms were being eroded every day. At some point, the people will say enough is enough and that's why we have Trump and Brexit. It won't stop there of course, these fundamental shifts never do. There won't be an about turn, on the contrary, positions will harden.

 

[Signalcalc]

Without the USA there would have been no NATO.

Without the USA, we wouldn't be talking on this forum, if we would even exist, most of our parents and/or grandparents probably would have been exterminated by now, there would be no EU, a 3rd Reich possibly, what a different world that would be :-0

Without the USA, there would be no Western civilisation, no [relative] freedom. Regardless of who the president currently is (and this one isn't as bad as most of the previous), the EU needs the USA as a superpower friend as much as they need the Russians and Chinese as superpower friends.

For all of Macron's and Merkel's posturing about an EU Army (the UK have been very quiet on the subject), NATO is still the main force in Europe and is currently engaged in poking the bear, but the bear isn't reacting.

NATO wouldn't be able to to poke the bear without EU/UK and US cooperation, so despite the media's reporting about Trump and NATO, it ain't the truth! All he said anyway was pay more to make it fairer, so I'm guessing they have paid up and are now engaged in troop movements to the EU's Eastern borders to provoke the bear into some kind of reaction.

Att you need to make your mind up - on the one hand you support an EU military (which is essentially warmongering) and yet denounce the US and Saudi (which includes UK/France/Germany/EU and various others) for warmongering! Remove your/our confusion and state what you would like to see?

The UK has already subordinated it's command and control to the EU, a process that has been going on for decades, sneaky, Brexit is not Brexit (whatever non-Brexit form that takes) whilst our military is subordinate to the EU.

I suspect that May has so much difficulty reaching a deal over Brexit because of the military position, everything else is fluff and bluff.

 

[sminicooper]

Agreed

How many times has article 5 of the NATO agreement ever been used?

(The all for one/one for all defence principle)

As for as I know, only once (after 9/11) but that wasn't its original intended purpose. Other NATO combined operations eg Balkans/Syria don't really qualify under article 5. Thankfully it's never had to be used in its original concept and that's what has kept Europe safe for a long time – "Big stick/speak softly".

With its current 29 members (everybody except Putin wants to join it would seem!) and Europe's reluctance to pay membership fees, I reckon it would have to be a pretty serious event to prompt invocation of Article 5 - especially now that Trump has lost patience..

 

[counter_violent]

LOL - ooooohhhh Trump's going to speak about our Brexit deal.

Shows depths you have sunk to.

I think his more likely to tell you how he managed to keep his hair dry in France.


Who gives a flying hute what he thinks. British people living in EU didn't get to have a say on Brexit so what's it to that idiot.

Not only do I want to know what Trump thinks, but also what other leading countries leaders think. I expect they will take a very dim view of our politicians and also our future prospects, prosperity, abilities going forward.

 

[tomorton]

Just had to say I love the clip in which the old lady asks Angela Merkel if she is Madame Macron.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...-macron-s-wife

I'd just love to hear what Madame Macron had to say about it.

 

[counter_violent]

Just looking at the markets, i've got this odd feeling that their might just be enough in this withdrawal document to avert the immediate political crisis. Everything is holding steady, perhaps even showing bullishness. Early days obviously, but the markets are usually ahead of the curve.

 

[Signalcalc]

EU military, a wall of silence:

 

[Splitlink]

He has the power to tear things down.

Has he managed to build that marvellous wall of his yet?


Betcha he thinks he can knock down TowerBridge and build one bigger and better the most fantastic bridge ever built in the history of all time.


Can you remind me what he said about NATO again.

Maybe, he'll build it over the wall he never built!

 

[Atilla]

Trump 'bashes' UK’s May after she calls to congratulate him on midterm results

Donald Trump’s turbulent European visit started with an “acrimonious” conversation with British Prime Minister Theresa May, who called to celebrate the Republican wins in the midterm elections, a Washington Post report claims.
The conversation, which was never officially reported by either side, came on Friday as Trump was travelling to Paris aboard Air Force One, the newspaper claims citing anonymous sources. Trump, who was allegedly in a foul mood, berated May over Britain not doing enough to support his anti-Iranian agenda, questioned her handling of Brexit negotiations and recounted his grievances about what he sees as unfair trade relations between the US and European nations.