Becoming a proffessional through prop shop?

[Shakone]

Youve got the wrong end of the stick LV.
In short, I want to teach in part, and put my views up for challenge.
Your opinion imo, is based on your perception of the 'facts'.

The main objectives of 'keeping things simple' was to show that:-
1) it can be done with an sb
2) to show a different take on managing loss
3) that its not rocket science.
In the process i found to my surprise I made an unusual amount of mistakes, of all descriptions (not usual for me) and the return relative to the market tone was very low for me.
I whittled it down to a fear of posting in public, this in turn uncovered fear in my trading. Primarily in my entry method. I dont know about you, but when I uncover serious flaws in what I do i have no option but to stop and investigate.
I many ways i considered the thread a failure from the general readers point of view, but ive learnt a lot from the experience.

The TiTZ thread main objectives were:-
1) to try and communicate the importance of psychology in trading (life in general)
2) put my views up for challenge
3) to help me cement my views
After reading TiTZ (prompted by the KTS threads discoveries) ive become aware that my view of the market is distorted. Also that i have unrealistic expectations in a few areas. Again, i personally cant ignore these flaws so they demand my attention
In many ways i also see this thread as a failure for most who folks who read it, why? Perhaps im not very good at communicating things, or more likely the readers are unaware of the topic,they are simply blinded by their beliefs.
Regardless, ive personally learnt from writing it.
I have to admit im running on fumes re that thread, i think ive just enough left to draw attention to what i see at the important bits in the book and close it up.
Then take another long tarde2win vacation.

wot u think o these then was as a result of reading the
'to good to be true' thread.
My thoughts went something like this "Do these guys really think they can have any real idea of what a trader is aiming to do by seeing a sliver of his trades?"
The temptation was too much
"Lets see how much they can decipher from these then!" :cheesy:
I was gona keep this to myself but the results were, lets say, revealing.
1) No one came close to the size i was trading. (4ppp)
2) No one could tell me my max risk at anytime.
3) No one could tell me if my directional play outperformed the market.
4) No one seemed to grasp the significance of losing only 80 'always in' pts in a 130+ move, (shocking to me tbh, i mean that is basic sh1t)
5) Even when I made the thread aware of my size and objectives some folks still persisted with their now obviously erroneous views re my size and performance.
Are these people stupid? Im sure they dont think so, neither do I. They just dont realize that they a being governed by their beliefs/personal experience, which leads their views, on risk, stops, he will go broke etc etc etc.
Re Balodimas's approach:- All i know is that he trades without fear, is a predominant short, he doesnt use stops. Notions near all traders dismiss. What i find most interesting about Jimmy is he is aware of his flaws as he is aware of his seeming inability to do much about them, outside of growing, learning, aiming to do better. As for the entry method, its my own beta method im afraid, no doubt Jimmy would laugh
Re SIM, backtesting:- Sim is great, i like sim, but it cant test psych like live real money can. Back testing ive done by eye, but personally i prefer to forward test an idea, usually with nano money, then mini money, then full live.
Either way, bearing in mind im a directional and manual, for me both are very secondary in importance to psych work, which is where i put most of my 'work' efforts.

When alls said and done, I dont think your being harsh mate, youre just another someone with a view on t2w, and Id much rather you give me your true opinion than agree aimlessly and like my posts.

Its all good LV, no malice from me mate.

I read one of your posts that linked to stevespray (I think!) and his method of managing losses (wait for a 50% retrace of how much it has gone against you). I think that some of his arguments were good, but he still recommended a hard stop somewhere. If you don't have a hard stop, what happens if you're caught on the wrong side of the next flash crash or get locked limit?

If I didn't use stops, I would always be concerned that any success was just short term until the one bad trade, a bit like if you martingale. You'd probably be fine for months or maybe even years if done sensibly, but it's just kicking the can down the road. I think both can be done successfully, as long as you withdraw profits so that when the account is blown you can restart. Also with no stops don't you find that you need to reduce size, which reduce profits? Might not be an issue if you have a large account.

 

[BSD]

Shakone I'm honestly beyond talking with people like you, it's just a gigantic waste of time.

Life has winners who keep it simple, lift their skirts, grab their balls, and just get out there and do it.

Life has losers obfuscating and complicating the simplest issues beyond anyone's comprehension abilities because they never want to have to experience failure,so they hide behind all kindsa excuses.

Socrates would be someone here I'm positive you'd have loved talking with.

For the rest of the guys, this is probably the best advice you'll ever get:

If you think you can, you can

If you think you can't, you can't.

 

[BSD]

The dumbest advice I've ever heard on these boards...

Go get a salaried job like random and shkaone are preaching here instead of lifting your skirt, grabbing your balls, and working for yourself ???

Who on earth would voluntarily give up the hope of being free, not having a boss and whinging colleagues and yaggling clients, in favour of having the chance of getting rich, what kind of a loser would voluntarily give that up for a miserable life in the rat race of corporatism ???

 

[BSD]

Some inspirational reading for guys with balls:

Lawrie Inman press & radio interviews

Does anyone honestly think an alpha animal like Paul Tudor Jones where Lawrie Inamn has ended up now would ever have sold his soul for the security of a pay check ? If you wanna be him, or Lawrie, or Richard Branson, or whoever, there's no alternative to going out there, completely believing you can, and just doing it !

 

[BSD]

Lol !

I mean I was at Uni and actually graduated but I've never fallen for the feeble-minded bull**** that that had anything to do with success in life or trading !

Guess there are guys who get it and then you've got the brigade of obfuscating losers.

Paul Tudor Jones II

Paul Tudor Jones II is the founder of Tudor Investment Corporation, a multi-billion dollar hedge fund. He is worth an estimated $6.3 billion in 2009 and was ranked by Forbes in March 2007 as the 369th richest person in the world. In 1976 he started working on the trading floorsas a clerk and then became a broker for E.F. Hutton. In 1980 he went strictly on his own for two and a half profitable years, before he “really got bored.” He then applied to the Harvard Business School, he was accepted, and packed to go when the idea occurred to him that: “this is crazy, because for what I’m doing here, they’re not going to teach me anything. To be a trader, this skill set is not something that they teach in business school.

“He was the toughest son of a bitch I ever knew. He taught me that trading is very competitive and you have to be able to handle getting your butt kicked. No matter how you cut it, there are enormous emotional ups and downs involved.”

”

No getting around it.

You've got to believe you can, and then grab your balls and do it if you wanna be exceptional and escape the misery of being a wage slave.

 

[Forexmospherian]

Attached part of Lawrie Inman interview

Hes talks about older traders at his firm........ ie 28 or 29 yrs old lol

Well I am 60 yrs old now and still scalping forex for myself

Talk about "burning out"................ - He really does need to "Harden the fook up"

kinell......... pansees - the whole lot of em !!!!!


PS - I worked with Branson at Board level for 3 yrs back in late 80's. At that time he was a Director of 127 companies - I was just a Director of 3 ( lol)

He surrounded himself with people who could do various jobs better than him and obviously he took the major risk - and of course the major gains;-))

God know what happened to me............ lol

Regards

F

 

[BSD]

AHe really does need to "Harden the fook up"

I've always loved Branson, not that I know him personally or anything, a guy who got to where he is without ever having enriched the corridors of any institution of higher learning, lol, did everything with sheer determinism and positivity, also totally loved his books.

He's got the same message I'm harping on about here.

There are guys who get it.

And losers obfuscating and hiding behind mindboggling bull**** !

The message in that book is, in a nutshell, decide what you want, and then just frigging lift your skirt, grab your balls, and do it already !

 

[Shakone]

BSD, you seem to always resort to attacking the messenger rather than the message. Your posts don't contain anything remotely relevant to what I posted to you. I don't know why you're always so pent up, but perhaps find a way to deal with your own problems without attacking others.

You also seem to only see what you want to see. Paul Tudor Jones did work in a job. He went to university, got a degree, took a salaried job (which is what has been suggested for the opening poster and which you call the dumbest advice ever). Did you not read the paragraph you quoted properly or did you just ignore the parts that contradicted you? It was his job that took him to the trading floor. Lawrie Inman has just accepted a salaried job with PTJ company, and before that he had other jobs working for people. He also went to university. Are they both idiots for going to university and taking jobs? There is nothing wrong with a salaried job. There are crap jobs and good jobs. I've had both. Branson started a record shop, and was in financial trouble if it hadn't been for his parents. It was later on that he achieved great success. He's unusual in that he didn't work for others and didn't get a classical education, so you can achieve with or without, but I'd expect more people go on to achieve great things who have been classically educated and at one time took a salaried job. What do you think PTJ, Inman and Branson will be telling their children to do? Drop out of school? Fxmo knows Branson, perhaps he can ask him.



I also don't know why you keep suggesting doing things with your balls, or why you wear skirts, so lets leave that out of it. But bring it back to the part in bold from my prior post. Try to relax and argue the point.

Did you always win in trading? Or did you lose in the beginning? If you lost in the beginning and then developed a new strategy, how do you know it was your mentality that gave you success and not the strategy? At what point did your brain suddenly change?

 

[darktone]

I read one of your posts that linked to stevespray (I think!) and his method of managing losses (wait for a 50% retrace of how much it has gone against you). I think that some of his arguments were good, but he still recommended a hard stop somewhere. If you don't have a hard stop, what happens if you're caught on the wrong side of the next flash crash or get locked limit?

Yep, Steve was the one who made it real for me. Reading his excellent breakdown in The Three Keys added weight to ideas i already had (but lacked the X to pursue). Worth a read for anyone who hasnt already. (note the resistance he met also)
Im sure i remember him talking about the use of a failsafe hardstop somewhere in there but i couldnt find it on a glance through. More important than that imo is he presses the importance of the trader taking responsibility and acting in way that is in his favor.
For me personally,(and this is all very recent, i still used be stops in KTS, to my detriment mostly) i would prefer to have the opp to act in a way thats in my favor, imo the use of a hard stop, once hit, removes that opp.
Re flashcrashes etc:- I wasnt trading that day but looking back, it would be unlikely i got caught on the wrong side because im a major trend follower. But if i was, so be it. I would try and manage as best I could with what i have offered me. Im cultivating the belief that "The market can do anything!". With that as an accepted core belief, im confident i could function well in that scenario.

If I didn't use stops, I would always be concerned that any success was just short term until the one bad trade, a bit like if you martingale. You'd probably be fine for months or maybe even years if done sensibly, but it's just kicking the can down the road. I think both can be done successfully, as long as you withdraw profits so that when the account is blown you can restart. Also with no stops don't you find that you need to reduce size, which reduce profits? Might not be an issue if you have a large account.

Well that is one outcome for sure but its important imo to try and consider the whole picture. If concerns are great enough they can dominate our focus and we can magnify them out of proportion.
Another thing is accepting the risk. The market can do anything. It 'could' break any of us in a heartbeat, unlikely if we are small enough, but possible imo.
Re size:- Personally im looking at reducing size re risk capital, but this isnt just to do with 'no stops'. It also to do with me making better use of the opps im offered. I know it might sound a bit vague, but as i said my view on what the market is changing fast. The result of that im seeing, or at least think im seeing a lot more opportunity.

 

[BSD]

Tudor Jones had the balls to go trade for himself as a local, turned down Harvard business school, then had the balls to found his own hedge fund, and not waste the rest of his life working in some imbecilic salaried job for someone else.

You're clearly in the think you can't so you can't camp, and that's fine, but keep your whingeing, whining and general negativity, opinions and complete falsehoods such as that it's impossible to get a sell or buy side job from a prop company to yourself, losers and the terminally insecure will always go for security, alpha animals will always choose to work for themselves.

You get a job and whine about how darn hard and complicated and difficult trading is all you like, but that apart, and with great insight as I mentioned already, talking with you is a gigantic waste of time that adds exactly zero value to anyone.

 

[BSD]

That was directed at shkaone or whatever that prime specimen of go-getting alphahood is called.

 

[Shakone]

Darktone, if I remember correctly, I think he mentioned an example in which he had a hard stop at 50 pips, but when it went 20 pips offside he would consider the trade to be wrong and go into exit mode and exit on a retrace.

He did receive a lot of resistance for his posts, but what he mentioned about putting stops at local lows being bad conceptually seems sensible to me. If you trade breakouts, then you're entering at what is locally the worst price in recent times, and if you leave your stop under the low, you're willing to exit a loser at the worst price recently. It's certainly worth thinking about imo.

 

[Shakone]

Tudor Jones had the balls to go trade for himself as a local, turned down Harvard business school, then had the balls to found his own hedge fund, and not waste the rest of his life working in some imbecilic salaried job for someone else.

You're clearly in the think you can't so you can't camp, and that's fine, but keep your whingeing, whining and general negativity, opinions and complete falsehoods such as that it's impossible to get a sell or buy side job from a prop company to yourself, losers and the terminally insecure will always go for security, alpha animals will always choose to work for themselves.

You get a job and whine about how darn hard and complicated and difficult trading is all you like, but that apart, and with great insight as I mentioned already, talking with you is a gigantic waste of time that adds exactly zero value to anyone.

I think you're cherry picking again. PTJ went to university. PTJ took a salaried job, perhaps more than one. PTJ considered going to university a second time, but eventually went out on his own. You can't spin that any other way.

I only have positive intentions here BSD, and I have given no 'falsehoods'. You have though. I have also never said it is impossible to get a job from a prop company, such a statement would be stupid. I also have not whined about anything or indeed whined about trading. So your post has nothing to do with me.

Try to refocus, actually read what I've written rather than what you wish I had written, and answer the bold part of my post. We might get somewhere.

 

[BSD]

No one who's been at uni like me would call the bachelor that Tudor Jones got a degree.

The real degree at Harvard is what he turned down.

The advice I'm referring is your crap advice to the OP to yo go get a job coz life is dangerous and hard on your own.

Paul Tudor Jones II is the founder of Tudor Investment Corporation, a multi-billion dollar hedge fund. He is worth an estimated $6.3 billion in 2009 and was ranked by Forbes in March 2007 as the 369th richest person in the world. In 1976 he started working on the trading floors as a clerk and then became a broker for E.F. Hutton. In 1980 he went strictly on his own for two and a half profitable years, before he “really got bored.” He then applied to the Harvard Business School, he was accepted, and packed to go when the idea occurred to him that: “this is crazy, because for what I’m doing here, they’re not going to teach me anything. To be a trader, this skill set is not something that they teach in business school.”

I honestly have zero idea from reading your incoherent ramblings what your message is.

Mine is crystal clear:

If you think you can.

If you think you cannot you cannot.

If you want to make it as a trader get out therir, lift your skirt, grab your balls, and just friggin do it already.

And, finally, alpha animals will always end up up working for themselves.

Christ what a waste of time.

 

[Shakone]

No one who's been at uni like me would call the bachelor that Tudor Jones got a degree.

So an undergrad degree (it's official and generally accepted title) is not called a degree by anyone? I call it a degree and I have more than one, so your statement is wrong.

The advice I'm referring is your crap advice to the OP to yo go get a job coz life is dangerous and hard on your own.

So what PTJ and Inman did with their lives was stupid. So two of the people you praise and highlight as examples did completely the wrong thing. Ok.

I honestly have zero idea from reading your incoherent ramblings what your message is.

I'm not the best writer, I'll give you that, but I'm pretty confident it is coherent. You're attacking the messenger again and avoiding the topic.

If you think you can.

If you think you cannot you cannot.

I agree with this statement but attach limits to the statement. Obviously thinking you can levitate isn't going to make you rise up from the floor. So there are limits to what you can do with thought alone.

Christ what a waste of time.

A little bit harsh on Jesus.

 

[BSD]

Yo buddy go find some loser to waste time with on your moronic semantics.

This is my message, and that's crystal clear:

If you think you can.

If you think you cannot you cannot.

If you want to make it as a trader get out therir, lift your skirt, grab your balls, and just friggin do it already.

And, finally, alpha animals will always end up up working for themselves.


Zero idea what you're on about.

Another Socrates on these boards is what you are.

 

[Shakone]

Yo buddy go find some loser to waste time with on your moronic semantics.

This is my message, and that's crystal clear:

If you think you can.

If you think you cannot you cannot.

If you want to make it as a trader get out therir, lift your skirt, grab your balls, and just friggin do it already.

And, finally, alpha animals will always end up up working for themselves.


Zero idea what you're on about.

Another Socrates on these boards is what you are.

Cheers.

 

[Pondlifedregsbutler]

What a load of old sweaty nut sacks this **** is!

 

[tar]

BSD and Shakone both of you are right , at the end its a personal choice there's no "the right way" to do it , both of you have valid points . Shakone's way is the safest no doubt about that and its proven to be rewarding if you work hard , BSD's way is risky i like it to myself and i can take such risk , but i dont advice anyone to choose that road its dangerous and most likely it wont lead to a meaningful success in life , but again it can be very rewarding !

 

[BSD]

Oh and yeah Lawrie is a great trader, but obviously nowhere in a league with a guy like Tudor Jones who chose to work for himself and start his own trading firm.

I just cited him as an obvious example to point out that it's complete bull**** that you can't get a sell or buy side job out of a prop firm.

Anyone will hire you if for some reason completely beyond me you want that, and completely irrespective of background or schooling if you've got a track record that shows you can consistently make money and move size.

It's that simple if you don't listen to losers obfuscating the obvious with completely irrelevant semantics.

Life really is Paretos law, 80% are constantly totally lost in irrelevant noise, and only 20% get the salient, and truly success relevant facts.