Automated vs Discretionary

How much of your trading is automated?

  • 100% Automated

    Votes: 3 14.3%
  • 100% Discretionary

    Votes: 15 71.4%
  • Semi-automated

    Votes: 3 14.3%

  • Total voters
    21

alphadude

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how much of your trading is automated; and how much is discretionary?

Please share your thoughts and experiences on why do you use either; or both.

my style is 100% automated; but of course with constant monitoring to make sure the computers dont go nasty; and to avoid that one event where a glitch can wipe out your account.
 
how much of your trading is automated; and how much is discretionary?

Please share your thoughts and experiences on why do you use either; or both.

my style is 100% automated; but of course with constant monitoring to make sure the computers dont go nasty; and to avoid that one event where a glitch can wipe out your account.

100% discretion when a system is designed and updated and 100 % mechanical when executed to avoid getting caught into non constructive emotions in a sea of uncertainty. No automated.
 
100% discretion when a system is designed and updated and 100 % mechanical when executed to avoid getting caught into non constructive emotions in a sea of uncertainty. No automated.

Mike; intersting concept on "100% discretion when system is designed". I don't think it is possible. At least for me; i will not trust a system that is generated automatically. Alas how do I know if it stopped working. I usually anticipate the signals from my automated systems because i fully understand the mechanics and when the bullet should be fired.

However; I would like to know if anyone have successfully generated systems automatically. That could be the holy grail.

On the other side; I sometimes do use Genetic Programming to get some new ideas; or to compare few rules and see which one has more effect.
 
Mike; intersting concept on "100% discretion when system is designed". I don't think it is possible. At least for me; i will not trust a system that is generated automatically. Alas how do I know if it stopped working. I usually anticipate the signals from my automated systems because i fully understand the mechanics and when the bullet should be fired.

However; I would like to know if anyone have successfully generated systems automatically. That could be the holy grail.

On the other side; I sometimes do use Genetic Programming to get some new ideas; or to compare few rules and see which one has more effect.

Sorry, Maybe I did not express myself in the right way. What I mean is this: I have various setups under certain market conditions that I look for, which I consider discretion. I then design a system based on that, with precise entry and exits with relative set ups and conditions. Once it is constructed and detailed on paper I will try to execute 100% in a mechanical way.
 
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Sorry, Maybe I did not express myself in the right way. What I mean is this: I have various setups under certain market conditions that I look for, which I consider discretion. I then design a system based on that, with precise entry and exits with relative set ups and conditions. Once it is constructed and detailed on paper I will try to execute 100% in a mechanical way.

we are on the same page.

to clarify; here are the terminologies of this poll:

100% Automatd: market data, trading model and execution are automated. It does not mean that the model was built using discretion. In principle all models are built by discretion.

100% Discretionary: trading model and execution are discretionary.

Semi-Automated: part of the process is automated. i.e. The trading model is automated; but the orders are executed with discretion.
 
However; I would like to know if anyone have successfully generated systems automatically. That could be the holy grail.

On the other side; I sometimes do use Genetic Programming to get some new ideas; or to compare few rules and see which one has more effect.

Me neither, I just try to keep it simple.
 
I went for 100% discretion.

I started this lark about 4 years ago by writing an automated trading system.

I found that it could not handle changing market conditions (trend to rangebound and back).

I found that trying to make it adaptive was introducing way too much curve fitting.

I figured that whilst I was a capable enough programmer, my trading/mkt understanding was limited.

I then decided to learn to trade with a view of being able to code it up.

I do not believe that you can code up the edge that discretion gives you.

The problem with discretion is self control. Personally I think this is a small price to pay for an adaptive trading capability.

There are no free lunches either way (mechanical vs discretionary and all the shades that live in between). There is always a price to pay for your choice.
 
alphadude, what automate system do you use?

tvd: can you elaborate more? not sure what you mean by the question?


if you are asking about software; i use variety of tools:
- MT4: monitoring the market, charting
- R: for data analysis
- IB API for order placement
- Java: for automating the models

I also use Tradestation and Amibroker from time to time; to test strategies that are coded in the languages associated with them.
 
the problem with automated trading is, you cannot teach a code to understand the market, only signals. And the market is not made just out of indicators...
 
the problem with automated trading is, you cannot teach a code to understand the market, only signals. And the market is not made just out of indicators...

BBPI; that's fine; it depends on your style. There is nothing right or wrong about discretionary vs automated.

my understanding is that the human brain is much more powerful than machines. Hence discretionary is always better. However it comes at a cost. There is so much you can do with discretionary. i.e. you can only trade one to 3 systems per day.

automated gives you the ability to run much more than that. It speeds up the process of research and launching strategies.

Bill Eckhart; the legendary turtle instructor; did one experiment for a full year; where he traded a system discretionary for 12 months; at the same time he employed a trader to trade the same system mechcanically.

At the end; the mechanical system did perform better. He gave up discretionary from that time till date.

my experience is similar; i traded descretionary; and from time to time i do interfere with my models trying to beat them. At the end of the day; the machine beat me to death; especially in managing risk; and keeping drawdown low. (y)
 
alphadude, i agree with your post. I wasn't advocating for one method, I just think that they need to be used together. This of course all depends on the trader's personality and style
 
tvd: can you elaborate more? not sure what you mean by the question?


if you are asking about software; i use variety of tools:
- MT4: monitoring the market, charting
- R: for data analysis
- IB API for order placement
- Java: for automating the models

I also use Tradestation and Amibroker from time to time; to test strategies that are coded in the languages associated with them.

I am sure you are able to import live data from IB to AB without going trough mt4.
But I am probably wrong as usual.:cry:
 
the problem with automated trading is, you cannot teach a code to understand the market, only signals. And the market is not made just out of indicators...

I completely agree.
Use the strengths of automation, but also turn the weakness (lack of market understanding)
into an advantage by basing the model purely on random probability from the very start.
Sure it will still take dumbass trades, and never be as efficient as good
discretionary trading, thats the price you pay.
I accept that and its good enough for me.
 
my understanding is that the human brain is much more powerful than machines. Hence discretionary is always better. However it comes at a cost.

Better is subjective.

The brain has very different qualities to your desktop.

- The brain is massively parallel in its processing ability. It is comparable to to about 1000 CPU's working in parallel
- The clock speed of the brain is really slow by comparison to the clock in your laptop
- Our short term memory is limited to a few pieces of information (about 6)
- Our long term memory is good but the indexing is rubbish (infinite but cannot find it when you want it)

So it is good at certain kinds of complex tasks and analysis but it does it slowly. Finally you have your emotions loaded on top of that which play havoc with the results generated.

If you want to brute force a repetitive task without missing a heartbeat, an automated system is magnificent. If you want to process & correlate many facts simultaneously and use some of the high speed, cognitive capabilities we possess to achieve a decision, then no machine can match the brain (currently).
 
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I completely agree.
Use the strengths of automation, but also turn the weakness (lack of market understanding)
into an advantage by basing the model purely on random probability from the very start

I can't see how it is possible to turn such a weakness into an advantage. An edge by definition is a probability of a known outcome. How can a model based on pure randomness result in anything but failure over time. Furthermore, how can a model based on randomness operate successfully in an environment that isn't random. I guess you could argue that it would appear random without knowledge of an edge. Does order affect randomness.. It's all too mystical for my liking, I'll stick with discretionary thanks
 
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I can't see how it is possible to turn such a weakness into an advantage. An edge by definition is a probability of a known outcome. How can a model based on pure randomness result in anything but failure over time.

Never tried a Coin flip before?
A roulette wheel is another example.
OK a roulette wheel is a strictly defined house edge.
With trading you have no such luxury due to changing volatility, ATR and volume weighting.
You can either integrate the above into the algo design or go the more simplistic route
of an automated coin flip.
It certainly can work though :)
Not because of randomness - thats bo11ocks - it provides a consistent reason for entry
that is all.
Its the risk control and trade management that actually make it work.

Anyway, personally pure randomness for me is a bit of a misnomer.
Unless trade duration is closer to swing when entry and exit times may be more random,
Intraday is more likely to work within a more strict framework of market session times.
So there can be quite rigid elements in a "random" system.

None of that is to say its perfect, far from it.
On a trade by trade basis, good discretionary will be more effective, also with drawdown control.

With automation its more of a compromise, if you prioritise drawdown and robustness
as the key primary goals and not profit, its no surprise that returns are lower.
 
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