Partners in Automation Software.

[Mr Soros]

Thanks for th info Travis. You mention about people stealing your work. I know this is true with most programmers, is this who you are referring to or others ? What kind of people would be attemting this?

 

[Yamato]

You're welcome. The guy who'd be stealing your work (for sure, I think) is one of the people who work at the company running the server you're renting for 200 dollars a month (or more). So you'd be paying them to get your precious work stolen. And even if they never did that, it would be an endless source of paranoia.

Then if we talk about using tradestation securities or stuff like that, or any trading software/company/broker that says "we'll run your system for you (so you don't have to be connected)", then you can be positive they'll steal your work.

That's why I was somewhat (if not totally) disagreeing with horace. Because I think the more "client-side", the better. The ideal would be if you didn't send your trades things through InteractiveBrokers but through a stupid online banking (say Bank of America vs a broker) who knows nothing about trading systems. But then you'd be losing in speed, so, based on my knowledge, IB TWS is the best solution. But maybe I'd add that it might be safer to code your systems in C than on excel, because it'd be even easier to protect. However, I am not a programmer so I used excel.

 

[Mr Soros]

Yes I see where you are coming from. I was under the impression you meant people hacking into your server and stealing it because it made money.

But I totally agree, most people that have the opportunity would steal it.

 

[Yamato]

Even if there's just one dishonest person every 10 people, which is optimistic, if the company has 10 people, someone will steal your stuff.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Even if there's just one dishonest person every 10 people, which is optimistic, if the company has 10 people, someone will steal your stuff.

Assuming they steal your stuff. What will they do with this stuff ? Will they be able to make money with this stuff ? If this stuff is capable of making money, isn't it better to keep making money with it and disassociate yourself from the people doing the stealing ?

 

[the hare]

What will they do with this stuff ? Will they be able to make money with this stuff ?

I always laugh when I see hosting companies who specifically target automated traders. Whilst its true that they might appreciate some of the problems, and may even provide a solution to those problems, they are also well aware of the potential of a decent automated strategy.

You'd have to be barking mad to use the services of such a company.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

I always laugh when I see hosting companies who specifically target automated traders. Whilst its true that they might appreciate some of the problems, and may even provide a solution to those problems, they are also well aware of the potential of a decent automated strategy.

You'd have to be barking mad to use the services of such a company.

Successful hosting companies generally don't trade other people's strategies. They have no reason to swap making a sure fire income from hosting with trading a system they know nothing about. If your strategy is a success, you would be running you own servers and wouldn't need to cheap out on other people's servers. So the point is moot, in that firstly they wouldn't steal from you; secondly if your software runs on their systems, it's not worth stealing.

 

[Yamato]

Good. There seems to be a consensus on not renting a server. This useful exchange of ideas will continue hopefully.

I already explained how I automated my systems: excel plus IB TWS. Soros, if you want to ask any questions regarding automation, go ahead. This is your thread so it's up to you to give it a direction.

I hope there'll be more people joining the thread, even though having the "automated trading" forum divided in three does not help build any community, and this is one of the few threads that aren't dead yet, due to this dispersion of energies and users (across 3 similar forums). I've already alerted forum management several times regarding this problem, but no luck yet.

 

[Mr Soros]

Thanks Travis, just waiting for my IB account to be completed. I will have questions once I am ready to load up the excel.

I think once we get a few more posts on here this thread will generate some interest. I know there are far more people into this than have come across it yet.

I agree, one thread would see more action. Its a shame because so much relevant and important information just gets pushed away in some dead thread.

 

[Yamato]

Wow, I consider myself satisfied if I influenced you in favor of IB. That's a very good choice you made. Yeah, I bet these automated trading forums are full of people like us who started writing interesting threads and then no one replied and they gave up.

But not me. If I ever forget to reply quickly, feel free to write me private messages requesting answers to your questions.

 

[horace]

The issue with the open trade being recognised as flat one and a second trade being opened, i believe that can still be recognised before placing a trade.

Ho Mr Soros,

This was just an example. And of course you can fix everything on a case by case basis. The problem is you can't predict all possible problems and even if you could, it's impossible to solve them all in advance.

Besides, it is not our business. We are traders, not platform maintainance guys.

I the real world, it is impossible to trade a fully automated strategy unassisted from home long enough. Sooner or later you realize you are better off trading manually. Most of the times after a pinfull experience.

Trading is a difficult enough venture to put additional hurdles in the waty.

Best regards,

Horace

 

[horace]

That's why I was somewhat (if not totally) disagreeing with horace. Because I think the more "client-side", the better.

In an absolutely theoreticall point of view, maybe. But not in the real world.

If you have been lucky enough to trade a fully automated stratetegy completely unassited from home for long enough and survive to tell the tale, I should clap my hands loudly for you.

And also recomend you do not play with fire any more and run to a server architecture before it is too late.

On the other side, I must say nobody really cares about (your -or mine- intellectual property). Nobody is going to steal and trade a trading strategy they don't know. And if the do, they'll drop it immediatelly after the first 3 losing trades in a row.

The "stealing conspirancy" might be good for a movie, but not for everybody else.

 

[horace]

Good. There seems to be a consensus on not renting a server. This useful exchange of ideas will continue hopefully.

Renting a server is almost as useless as trading from home only a little bit more dangerous in some aspects. Even then it is a bit more reliable on the technical side and should be considered before a home architecture.

Definetively not the best way to go, but still better than a soho install.

H

 

[Yamato]

In an absolutely theoreticall point of view, maybe. But not in the real world.

If you have been lucky enough to trade a fully automated stratetegy completely unassited from home for long enough and survive to tell the tale, I should clap my hands loudly for you.

And also recomend you do not play with fire any more and run to a server architecture before it is too late.

On the other side, I must say nobody really cares about (your -or mine- intellectual property). Nobody is going to steal and trade a trading strategy they don't know. And if the do, they'll drop it immediatelly after the first 3 losing trades in a row.

The "stealing conspirancy" might be good for a movie, but not for everybody else.

Renting a server is almost as useless as trading from home only a little bit more dangerous in some aspects. Even then it is a bit more reliable on the technical side and should be considered before a home architecture.

Definetively not the best way to go, but still better than a soho install.

H

Hey, I guess your tone is just like mine, so I am going to have to accept it. You are positive you hold the Truth just as much as I am.

My experience is that I can run things from home and have no bugs of any kind, I can do the same from a server and have no problems either, and I say this after having placed over 600 live trades in the past 13 months, and having seen only 3 bugs in the first month (and a couple of power outages the UPS could not withstand), and then never had a bug again. So I am waiting for some clapping, and will keep doing things all by myself, being both the systems creator and the maintenance guy. Did I say that I am running everything from one excel workbook with 120 systems on it? Yes, thanks for the clapping. All I have to do is turn the workbook on and off once a day (the time I do both things is 7.15 AM CET).

I mostly agree on the other things you said. Except for this: if you are not afraid of people stealing your systems, why don't you post all your work here, as an attachment? You see, I don't think you believe such risk does not exist. Let alone putting your work on a server run by people with an interest in systems.

 

[the hare]

The problem is you can't predict all possible problems and even if you could, it's impossible to solve them all in advance.

This is an extremely good point. Ironically the more robust you try to make the system by adding in additional tiers of redundancy, the more likely a combination of unforseen events is likely to occur.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

This thread is full cluelessness about systems, client/server/whatever. I will vote for a fail.

 

[the hare]

My experience is that I can run things from home and have no bugs, after having placed over 600 live trades, and only had 3 bugs in the first month, and then never had a bug again..

My first job after leaving university was with a crazy company who supplied various products to the mining industry. Most of the mines I visited diplayed signs outside which read something along the lines of "278 day since last fatal accident"

Each day, the number would be incremented, until some poor sod got killed and the number was reset to zero

Autotrading is similar, years can go by, then something somewhere (maybe not even under your control) goes wrong, and the consequences can be disasterous (and I speak from bitter experience )

Thats just the nature of software

 

[Yamato]

Interesting that you make the same point as horace, and that I still disagree. It might help if I add that I am diversifying among 120 systems and therefore each system is only investing a small part of the capital? I think it will clarify my situation and why the "278 days since last fatal accident" approach works for me, because there are no fatal accidents to begin with. Small investment on each trade, and no high-frequency trading. The trades last from 1 hour to 48 hours, and the consequence is that 3 accidents per year are ok. Not just that, but I can rely on it enough to let it run for the entire day unattended, and not be afraid of any bad surprises.

The only problem left to be solved is the UPS, which only lasts half an hour and in the last 13 months has caused two accidents: the server shut itself down due to lack of power. My friend running the server says it's not worth it to get a more powerful one. If this server ever gets replaced we should opt for a laptop, which has a battery that can last up to several hours. Or we should get a more powerful UPS even though my friend is against it... yet that's important, too, because the server is in his closet, so I can't go against him. If he's not ok with placing a huge UPS in his closet, I can't force him.

 

[the hare]

Interesting that you make the same point as horace, and that I still disagree. It might help if I add that I am diversifying among 120 systems and therefore each system is only investing a small part of the capital? I think it will clarify my situation and why the "278 days since last fatal accident" approach works for me, because there are no fatal accidents to begin with.

I trade using a very similar approach these days, and fwiw, I had a 2 hour power cut this afternoon

 

[Yamato]

Then it went ok, even if the computer got turned off. But maybe it didn't get turned off, because you might be using a laptop or a UPS. What kind of UPS do you have? Or how do you deal with power outages?