All you need is... The Further Tales

[candles]

Sorry, in all the hurry I accidentally typed his birth date.

The original published date of the first edition is 1982.
That's still 25 years ago. Enough to say nor I, nor mp, are the first to present this.

Can you please stop copying me!
Everyone on this site knows that im the one who accidentally types things in a hurry. Why you trying to steal my thunder?...thief!

 

[firewalker99]

fw, what is your take on divergence?, do you use it at all?, i guess you do take it into consideration being a technician, but do you include the divergence set ups into your trading?

Yes, sometimes. Depends on what you mean by divergence signals though. I don't use divergence from indicators, I use divergence between price and volume. For example if I see an uptrend, but price declines on the way up and increases on the way down, it's a warning signal. It should be the other way around... divergences can give clues, but I wouldn't trade of a divergence alone.

There's also TICK divergence. If you look at a double top for example, you'll find that TICK is often lower at the second high.

Disclaimer: there are probably other people using this method too, so if this has been said elsewhere in the universe, apologies to all those other authors for not mentioning their names

 

[mp6140]

Mp -- Divergence Indicator For Mt4

fw, what is your take on divergence?, do you use it at all?, i guess you do take it into consideration being a technician, but do you include the divergence set ups into your trading?

============================================================

while im not fireguy, nor would i want to play him on tv, I have a little MA xover/macd divergence indicator that has become a mainstay in the toolbox.

fully capable of giving extremely tight ma xover entries, i use it to confirm, to immediately see trend and for that all important divergence that tells you the party is gonna end soon !

came up with this indicator about a year ago and found, over time, that i kept referring to it to spot trend and direction of the currency in any timeframe.

While its no great shakes, It does tell an awful lot about whats happening, how far a run may go and also makes one fine pizza !

It fits into ONE indicator panel and is a little tricky to set up if you dont know how to combine indicators into a single panel, but here goes.

MACD --- FAST (1), slow (5), MACD SMA (10) COLORS ARE -- MAIN (silver), SIGNAL (Magenta)
MOVING AVERAGES -- (2) exponential, yellow, applied to close, (5) simple, red, close
(12) exponential, Peru, close / (20) simple, lime, close / (50) exponential, Aqua, close.
Horizontal line --- (100) white

to set these up, you first build the MACD, then when you ADD another MA, you set it originally to "previous indicators data" in the "apply to" window --- once it has "stuck" to the previous indicator, you can then change it to its final "apply to", which in all cases is "close". Once the complete indicator is built, add the (100) horizontal white line.

you may use any colors you wish, but if you use mine, youll immediately know what the indicator is saying on any chart i display, and will be able to say such really techie stuff like "the green one is above the yellow one and the red one is going thru them both and looks to be going down !"

see, thats how we pros talk to each other, when not stealing the others work ! (LOL)

mp

 

[mp6140]

mp, I never said they didn't exist. Read again over what I said. I said the purpose of these lines (at least mine) is to show trend, direction, momentum, not to show that price reacts because the trader has a line drawn somewhere on his chart. I believe you even agreed to this in your own thread and you said yourself you used S/R to determine exit entry & exit. So before we go off in yet another entanglement, think again about your posts and mine, and I think you'll find those are in agreement.

I also said that if you draw enough lines on your chart, some are bound to cross with price, but whether this is because price reacts to to the line or because a line by definition only exists when two points are connected, is a different matter.

You are welcome to prove your point about your lines working or not working, but for the time being these are hindsight comments. I'm sure you are a very helpful tool in determining when to put a trade on, but it doesn't serve the purpose of this thread to explain in hindsight that they worked. Even in your own thread several people have now asked you to put forward to examples beforehand. The market only opens the day after tomorrow, so you plenty of time to do that.

You don't need to know what's going to happen next, to make money out of the market. And trust me, I've seen enough people being very able to 'predict' the next move, but unable to actually make a profit out of it.

====================================================
fireguy --- understand that while answering your questions, i might throw in an answer to anothers also --- saves me the price of a stamp in mailing TWO letters from the USA to the UK ! so yes, you never said they dont exist, and that was directed to another !

correct in that, while more times than not i WILL predict what happens, ITS FAR EASIER to predict the trend than the actual prices UP TO A POINT --- that point being the day we are actively trading what was once the "future", but i can tell you (within a few pips) what the price may possibly be in the future --- when you first opened this thread, i made a statement concerning the DOW that was prophetically true, but actually a mistake on my part because i was using much too high a timeframe for the DOW -- one meant for looking into the future of forex instead !( i had forex charts up and when i put the DOW in, i still had all the forex settings !)

very often, given the right circumstances, i CAN predict the future prices, but everything has to be working pretty darned well for me to look a week into the future and tell you to the pip ---- give me 3 or 4 days of price movement and my job becomes increasingly easier, and very often, a few days out of the chute, i will nail the number pretty well !

but once again, the real use is for trend direction --- once i know where were going, coming up with a price is not the hard part --- thats simply watching support and resistance with a little peek at level 2 which i often use to enhance my "wizard of oz" personna !

when you first started this thread, I predicted a "bounce" as you will see on my post, AND THEN COMING BACK DOWN AGAIN at the EOD --- I turned out to be ONE HOUR off as it didnt come down before the first hour start of the SECOND 24 hour day, so i do apologize for not being absolutely spot on and being an hour off !

RIGHT THERE, I HAD ALREADY PROVEN THE WORTH OF THE LRC --- and continue each day with EOD charts of the DOW. Whatever you may think of the lines, if constantly prices bounce off of them, currency after currency, hour after hour and month after month, WHY DONT YOU SPEND MORE TIME EXAMINING AND LESS TIME IGNORING !

IF YOU SIMPLY TAKE EACH EOD CHART OF THE DOW, look at yesterday and then "today", you will see the progression, how it stays within its trend and how it hits and bounces off the lines -- I DONT DRAW THEM, talk to them, have dinner with them, bring them flowers, rent hotel rooms for them, buy them cars or engage in any other "buying their affections" behavior --- THEY JUST SHOW WHATS HAPPENING, for me (an extremely handsome, well situated dirty old man,) or to the toothless hag down the street (and even for you, i would assume !)

JUST WHAT IS IT WITH YOU GUYS --- are you born refusing to examine what you see before you ?

theres NOTHING to prove --- its there every day in living color --- I DONT DRAW THE LINES, an algorithm does it and when you observe, its a pretty good little algorithm because it works --- which is the one thing YOU KEEP LEAVING OUT in all your twisting and turning.

let me understand one thing --- is this WHOLE site dedicated to naked trading --- ie: NO indicators, moving averages, etc --- I REALLY WISH TO KNOW because nowhere in the USA does anyone tell me my charts are too complex, so maybe weve got a cultural problem here

 

[mp6140]

hi mp, your chart looks so cluttered, how the hell do you make sense of it, don't you think it's best to keep things simple including your chart?

ROFLMAO

that particular chart, and the ones i post daily, has had every single overlay except the bollinger bands and the LRC's removed from it (if i put forth the one i really use, you would run from the room, screaming "unclean, unclean", cross yourself repeatedly and order that i be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail !)[/B]

Simple is very nice indeed, but it dont get the cows fed for this man --- simple means youre FOLLOWING what happens, and while there seems to be a lot of disagreement on these threads, it IS POSSIBLE TO PREDICT, WITH OFTEN AMAZING ACCURACY, WHERE YOUR PRICE IS HEADING as defined by LRC channels and s+r points (which is a VERY GOOD METHOD, and the one i use myself) and THEN YOU WAIT TO SEE IF IT GOES TO THE NEXT POINT HIGHER.

using overlays and indicators and observing the percentage of remaining use in an indicator gives me an AWFULLY good idea of how far the price can move without ever having to see if it breaks thru an existing resistance point --- id rather know in advance, then take my profit, go flat and WAIT (except at the top or bottom LRC !)

I have one indicator that ive tested for a year --- its purpose is to tell me on any timeframe chart, what the PERCENTAGE OF MOVEMENT LEFT for the price is which then becomes a reasonably simple process of telling where the top of a move will be ---- I still dont trust it, but some day, since it seems to work, i will begin to trust !

all of the above is in answer to your version of "trading naked", which is pure and sweet, but doesnt bring home the bacon the way indicators do --- enjoy your profits, but by using indicators i would bet you would increase your holdings tremendously, and without indicators HOW DO YOU TRADE OVERNITE ? --- you know, just take a trade and go to sleep --- s+r wont tell you alone if the price will go there overnite or go down, so how do you place that trade ?

enjoy and trade well
mp

 

[jayjay121]

ROFLMAO

that particular chart, and the ones i post daily, has had every single overlay except the bollinger bands and the LRC's removed from it (if i put forth the one i really use, you would run from the room, screaming "unclean, unclean", cross yourself repeatedly and order that i be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail !)[/B]

Simple is very nice indeed, but it dont get the cows fed for this man --- simple means youre FOLLOWING what happens, and while there seems to be a lot of disagreement on these threads, it IS POSSIBLE TO PREDICT, WITH OFTEN AMAZING ACCURACY, WHERE YOUR PRICE IS HEADING as defined by LRC channels and s+r points (which is a VERY GOOD METHOD, and the one i use myself) and THEN YOU WAIT TO SEE IF IT GOES TO THE NEXT POINT HIGHER.

using overlays and indicators and observing the percentage of remaining use in an indicator gives me an AWFULLY good idea of how far the price can move without ever having to see if it breaks thru an existing resistance point --- id rather know in advance, then take my profit, go flat and WAIT (except at the top or bottom LRC !)

I have one indicator that ive tested for a year --- its purpose is to tell me on any timeframe chart, what the PERCENTAGE OF MOVEMENT LEFT for the price is which then becomes a reasonably simple process of telling where the top of a move will be ---- I still dont trust it, but some day, since it seems to work, i will begin to trust !

all of the above is in answer to your version of "trading naked", which is pure and sweet, but doesnt bring home the bacon the way indicators do --- enjoy your profits, but by using indicators i would bet you would increase your holdings tremendously, and without indicators HOW DO YOU TRADE OVERNITE ? --- you know, just take a trade and go to sleep --- s+r wont tell you alone if the price will go there overnite or go down, so how do you place that trade ?

enjoy and trade well
mp

no you are getting me wrong, i too use indicators and can't trade my method without them. Basically if it works for you and you are making money then who am i too to judge, just I couldn't personally make sense of your chart thats all, but you got me thinking maybe i should learn

 

[mp6140]

MP -- good to see ya TRO, but dont destroy all of them -- theres a couple good ones !

Get 'em, MP...LOL!!

HEY TRO --- neato seeing you !

you just cover my back and ill dump feathers all over these brits --- sooner or later theyll get over their cussedness.

what with their refusal to accept whats in front of them, one wonders how long it took to use japanese candlesticks ?

THAT must have been a cultural revolution for them !

ROFLMAO

now please, unload the shotguns and the tactical nukes --- theyre supposed to be allies and we dont want to cause an international incident or anything that might interfere with our president stealing all that money !

mp

 

[wasp]

ROFLMAO

that particular chart, and the ones i post daily, has had every single overlay except the bollinger bands and the LRC's removed from it (if i put forth the one i really use, you would run from the room, screaming "unclean, unclean", cross yourself repeatedly and order that i be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail !)[/b]

Each to their own ....

Simple is very nice indeed, but it dont get the cows fed for this man --- simple means youre FOLLOWING what happens, and while there seems to be a lot of disagreement on these threads, it IS POSSIBLE TO PREDICT, WITH OFTEN AMAZING ACCURACY, WHERE YOUR PRICE IS HEADING as defined by LRC channels and s+r points (which is a VERY GOOD METHOD, and the one i use myself) and THEN YOU WAIT TO SEE IF IT GOES TO THE NEXT POINT HIGHER.

Doesn't sound like predicting to me. Sound like your following too.

using overlays and indicators and observing the percentage of remaining use in an indicator gives me an AWFULLY good idea of how far the price can move without ever having to see if it breaks thru an existing resistance point --- id rather know in advance, then take my profit, go flat and WAIT (except at the top or bottom LRC !)

S/R does that.

I have one indicator that ive tested for a year --- its purpose is to tell me on any timeframe chart, what the PERCENTAGE OF MOVEMENT LEFT for the price is which then becomes a reasonably simple process of telling where the top of a move will be ---- I still dont trust it, but some day, since it seems to work, i will begin to trust !

Hardly more reliable then.

all of the above is in answer to your version of "trading naked", which is pure and sweet, but doesnt bring home the bacon the way indicators do ---

Yes it does. Each to their own though.

enjoy your profits, but by using indicators i would bet you would increase your holdings tremendously,

In your opinion. Never increased mine.

and without indicators HOW DO YOU TRADE OVERNITE ? --- you know, just take a trade and go to sleep --- s+r wont tell you alone if the price will go there overnite or go down, so how do you place that trade ?

enjoy and trade well
mp

Use alarms for important levels. Set orders. You have just a good chance of the same levels being alerted as, as you say, your indicators are based on support and resistance, same as what us naked traders see.

EOD, its all personal requirements and comfort. If it works for you, then all the best. But indicators don't tell any more than price. They are all based on price.

 

[wasp]

HEY TRO --- neato seeing you !

you just cover my back and ill dump feathers all over these brits --- sooner or later theyll get over their cussedness.

what with their refusal to accept whats in front of them, one wonders how long it took to use japanese candlesticks ?

Over-rated IMO.... Bars are just as good.

THAT must have been a cultural revolution for them !

ROFLMAO

now please, unload the shotguns and the tactical nukes --- theyre supposed to be allies and we dont want to cause an international incident or anything that might interfere with our president stealing all that money !

mp

Actually. You'll find that was just Blair. But lets not get into politics.

 

[wasp]

Anyhow, I have no objection to you trading indicators. I did once. The day I put an indicator back on my chart I'll quit. Each to their own though and good luck. You just won't catch me going backwards in my trading.

Good trading.

 

[Paul71]

all of the above is in answer to your version of "trading naked", which is pure and sweet, but doesnt bring home the bacon the way indicators do --- enjoy your profits, but by using indicators i would bet you would increase your holdings tremendously, and without indicators HOW DO YOU TRADE OVERNITE ? --- you know, just take a trade and go to sleep --- s+r wont tell you alone if the price will go there overnite or go down, so how do you place that trade ?

enjoy and trade well
mp

Humans have an enormous drive to understand (at least some do), some love to take a subject like the markets and boil it right down to the nitty gritty, the atomic level, the sub atomic, and further.

That's why indicators will never do for some people (it may be to their detrement).

To some, it's not about the profits, it's about the understanding at a deeper level.

You can't deny understanding and knowledge can you, Mp?

 

[firewalker99]

let me understand one thing --- is this WHOLE site dedicated to naked trading --- ie: NO indicators, moving averages, etc --- I REALLY WISH TO KNOW because nowhere in the USA does anyone tell me my charts are too complex, so maybe weve got a cultural problem here

mp, the portion of this site that is dedicated to 'naked trading' as you call it, is much much smaller than what is discussed about indicators. For some reason you might have overlooked all the threads about stocs, macd, rsi, maxo,... Try this: Indicators - T2W Day Trading & Forex Forums

It's a hasty induction to assume what this site is about. Have you visited the Trading Psychology threads? Have you checked out the Economic and Fundamental Analysis threads? I'm actually quite sure that the number of people who DO NOT use indicators, are in the minority.

This thread is not about discussing the use of indicators nor is it the place to proof (or disproof) that one is better than the other. I'm happy for anybody who makes money out of indicators, and probably a lot of people do, but then again, a whole lot of people don't.

The point is, that everything you need to know is in the chart. A chart is nothing more than a representation of price. So it comes down to price. The tape. Anything you put on top of that, might help you confirm or proof what you need to know... but that doesn't change the fact that it's only a translation of price.

 

[mp6140]

Use alarms for important levels. Set orders. You have just a good chance of the same levels being alerted as, as you say, your indicators are based on support and resistance, same as what us naked traders see.

EOD, its all personal requirements and comfort. If it works for you, then all the best. But indicators don't tell any more than price. They are all based on price.

===================================================================

wasp --- i dont give a rats rump if you use indicators or not --- they are simply a part of how i trade, but the indicators (with the correct values and not box - stock) are very capable of transcending price, dealing with divergencies or LACK of divergencies, and therefore "predicting" WHAT the price will do such as BREAK through resistance or support --- there appears on this site the overwhelming idea that it is more "pure" to trade from resistance level to resistance level, BUT THE INDICATORS SHOW THE STRENGTH BEHIND THE MOVES which your naked charts SIMPLY CANNOT DO !

its not indicators for trading entries and exits, but indicators to tell you how long or short the move shall be, and while there may well be a few here who use them, there appears to be a concerted effort to teach most NOT TO USE THEM, for whatever reasons i cannot understand !

Please understand that not ALL INDICATORS are based on PRICE, but rather PRICE MOVEMENT --- and if one knows in advance how much STRENGTH is behind that movement, one is way ahead of the ones who are just HANGING onto the move --- they can more accurately predict where the move will END !

IS THIS SOME KIND OF CULT, WHERE INDICATORS ARE STONED BY THE RISE OF THE MOON AT STONEHENGE ?

WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO EVEN GLANCE AT THEM ?

LOL

mp

 

[Paul71]

mp, the portion of this site that is dedicated to 'naked trading' as you call it, is much much smaller than what is discussed about indicators. For some reason you might have overlooked all the threads about stocs, macd, rsi, maxo,... Try this: Indicators - T2W Day Trading & Forex Forums

It's a hasty induction to assume what this site is about. Have you visited the Trading Psychology threads? Have you checked out the Economic and Fundamental Analysis threads? I'm actually quite sure that the number of people who DO NOT use indicators, are in the minority.

This thread is not about discussing the use of indicators nor is it the place to proof (or disproof) that one is better than the other. I'm happy for anybody who makes money out of indicators, and probably a lot of people do, but then again, a whole lot of people don't.

The point is, that everything you need to know is in the chart. A chart is nothing more than a representation of price. So it comes down to price. The tape. Anything you put on top of that, might help you confirm or proof what you need to know... but that doesn't change the fact that it's only a translation of price.

 

[Paul71]

===================================================================

wasp --- i dont give a rats rump if you use indicators or not --- they are simply a part of how i trade, but the indicators (with the correct values and not box - stock) are very capable of transcending price, dealing with divergencies or LACK of divergencies, and therefore

That's all well and fine for you, Mp. But i think FW, started this thread for different reasons (although arguement is needed as a form of stimulant to the thread).

A chart, a naked chart, is pure in form. Indicators are personal opinion and can be tweaked, they are illusional, the naked chart is not.

 

[firewalker99]

that particular chart, and the ones i post daily, has had every single overlay except the bollinger bands and the LRC's removed from it (if i put forth the one i really use, you would run from the room, screaming "unclean, unclean", cross yourself repeatedly and order that i be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail !)[/B]

I suspect your charts look a lot like this one then...

[Wasp in particular should recognize who's it is ]

 

[mp6140]

m

This thread is not about discussing the use of indicators nor is it the place to proof (or disproof) that one is better than the other. I'm happy for anybody who makes money out of indicators, and probably a lot of people do, but then again, a whole lot of people don't.

The point is, that everything you need to know is in the chart. A chart is nothing more than a representation of price. So it comes down to price. The tape. Anything you put on top of that, might help you confirm or proof what you need to know... but that doesn't change the fact that it's only a translation of price.

==============================================================

oh, a pox on your brothers house fireman --- i dont care about indicators, just answering the questions raised by others and ok'd by the mod in the beginning -- remember :"you have raised a broad pallette" or something of that ilk ?

what i do is follow the price, but the trades i set for hours and days ahead are done based on the strength of moves to happen in the future and my guidline roadmap, the LRC !!

for instance, i have one trade (just a single lot if i remember) set at a tp of 1.5200 on the EURUSD as i feel thats where its going before reversal back up (based on the LRC on the weekly chart, if i remember correctly) --- YOU AINT GONNA SET THAT TRADE USING PRICE ACTION BUBBALAH ! NO WAY JOSE !!!

My trades run the gamit of 0.5 second to trading the daily, and i have at least 10 trades open, based on totally different timeframes, per day if not more, and I CANT DO THAT WITH JUST PRICE MOVEMENT --- I HAVE TO KNOW WHERE PRICE IS GOING !

If you trade with a singularness of style, in only one timeframe, you can get away with anything you wish -- u simply dump out of a trade when a stop is triggered (boy is that ever a chicken manure way of doing things) or by throwing bones in the air --- when you trade multiple timeframes on multiple pairs, you DANGED WELL better have SOME idea of where you be heading, or youre gonna become a fish with the name of "flounder !"

you dont make 302 straight trades with zero losses by NOT knowing which way the road goes !

 

[mp6140]

I suspect your charts look a lot like this one then...

[Wasp in particular should recognize who's it is ]

============================================================

NO, i save purple for my price channels only and volume is of no real interest to me !

i also (coming out of show business) prefer a more varied color pallette !

otherwise a pretty simple chart, all told

mp

 

[jayjay121]

indicators definately work for me depends on what indicator and how you use it i guess, following price is cool though and i do this first and foremost with walking trendlines, pivots etc, but the added confirmation is great and also gives better s and r in your timeframe than just following historical levels. Why are so many people against indicators anyway, they make your life at least 33% easier, you can use them for so many things, exhaustion, momentum and the best thing divergence patterns. My indicator tells me when to enter when to get out, its not 100% but what is. If i took my indicator away Im not sure i could trade. A indicator is all part of ta and you are using ta even if just following price so why not have that extra guide?, saying that though i must admit it has took me over a year now to start to realise the actual power of using them........... But like you say each to their own so long as their is the right mental framework, discipline, money management and strick rules and if you can trade without fear every single day i think both ways still would work

 

[mp6140]

indicators definately work for me depends on what indicator and how you use it i guess, following price is cool though and i do this first and foremost with walking trendlines, pivots etc, but the added confirmation is great and also gives better s and r in your timeframe than just following historical levels. Why are so many people against indicators anyway, they make your life at least 33% easier, you can use them for so many things, exhaustion, momentum and the best thing divergence patterns. My indicator tells me when to enter when to get out, its not 100% but what is. If i took my indicator away Im not sure i could trade. A indicator is all part of ta and you are using ta even if just following price so why not have that extra guide?, saying that though i must admit it has took me over a year now to start to realise the actual power of using them........... But like you say each to their own so long as their is the right mental framework, discipline, money management and strick rules and if you can trade without fear every single day i think both ways still would work

=====================================================================

there appears to be (and i say this with NO prejudice or malice --- simply as an observation) to be a tight little band of traders on this particular site who believe in a lot of "trading naked" --- using pretty bare charts and nothing else.

being a pipe smoker of english tobacco blends, i can understand the "PURITY" behind their thoughts, and have many times traded naked just for fun (we leave the McGivers out of this !) Its fun, but i believe i would change your percentage figures to they are only using HALF (so 50% then) what charts can provide !

allow that one can trade very nicely with just a chart and a few overlays --- give me bols bands and s+r and ill still come home at the end of the day with my allotment of sheckels, but the indicators give you MORE --- they are predictive and naked charts are not --- They show strength, which naked charts cannot --- they "confirm" which naked charts cannot and the McGivers love to watch them go up and down --- in fact those two girls love to watch . . . . . . . sorry folks . . . . . . . family channel so i better shut up !

anyway, trading naked is kewl, its pure, its almost saintlike, but while youre down on your knees praying, some infedel goes sailing past you, compass in one hand, altimeter in the other and a flying carpet with a large golden pot on it --- fortunately, hes not a member of the "purity of spirit" club !

nor are we over here in the USA where few indeed trade naked !

mp