All vendors are crooks!!

Jon

I am amazed you can dispute what I quoted there. I am amazed because it's on this basis that I trade the ES every day.

I am amazed because her explanation of the way people jump on moves is exactly what happens on the ES 2-4 times a day.

What are you saying, that when a move starts and people jump on it, that it's the minority making it move as far as it does?

She doesn't say "everyone is bullish", she's explaining the way moves are perpetuated by the crowd jumping in on them. Herd mentality.

DT

That may be due to the liquidity variance between markets.
I've seen it before with illiquid stocks. The ES and an illiquid stock are poles apart
in terms of tape reading. A couple of players can and frequently do hammer
illiquid markets with size to beat it into submission:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/124852-1st-5-just-fun-5.html#post1550506
OK that wasn't a realtime observation BTW, that is what the tape showed though.

Its the liquidity imbalances themselves that cause the movements.
Obviously human traders or algos are still behind them.
You can have fewer individual players on one side who will win if their pockets
are deeper as a cumulative total.

I think thats where the difference of opinion comes from - different markets,
simple as that. The quote is just using majority of people as a simplistic explanation.
Most of the time its true, now and again it will be down the greater liquidity provided by fewer players than the other side.

In a more liquid market it is a lot harder to even see on a daily basis.
Soros and black wednesday is probably one of the most graphic and widely known examples.

Generally speaking though, I completely agree with the quote in broad terms.

EDIT - DIDNT SEE OTHER REPLIES WHILE POSTING :whistling
 
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The only thing I will ever pay for is books, commissions (the spread), and losses. How anyone can even consider paying a couple k for classes or a system is beyond me.

Then again, I've been brought up with the internet where everything is free, so maybe I just think about it differently?

-----

Anyway, good article out of The Hare, though I disagree with some points.

For example, if vendors are giving what traders want instead of need, they aren't all that better than their plain thieving brethren, so that doesn't excuse them.

The simple answer is -- learn to trade yourself, and forget about those guys asking you to hand over what could be your grubstake. You may get fortunate (like I did), and find someone willing to show you the ropes, but the plain fact is that the system you end up using is the one you will develop yourself.

I'm going to be offensive now & say that this sort of stuff that is exactly the problem with trading forums. Actually, it's not intentionally being offensive, just a natural reaction to bu11sh1t.

VielGeld will only pay money for books. So all you traders out there - note that books have now been recommended. One second though, VielGeld isn't saying he actually learnt anything from a trading book - he's just recommending it.

VielGeld says he's an internet baby and everything is available for free on the internet. Like Dante's posts. One second though, VielGeld isn't saying he ever learnt anything from a trading site - he's just recommending it.

VielGeld says he'd never spend money on training, it's not necessary. One second though, he's saying he didn't self-learn, that somebody taught him how to trade. Somebody taught him how to pull money out of the markets and the value he ascribes to that teaching is $0.

There's a lot of conventional wisdom on these sites. "it's all available on teh interweb" is a trading forum cliche. Thing is - no-one backs this up with a set of links where it is available. It's just an oft repeated statement. How someone that can't trade is supposed to trawl through the millions of pages to pull out the gems is never covered.

Trading is a profession. Respect it as such. It's not something you get instructions for in the December issue of the Beano.
 
Ah, so maybe I'm just the only one who can smell bull****, must come from working on a farm.

Honestly shocked, sort of assumed a majority at least would of done the same as me, buy a book, watch the market, figure it out. Explains a lot.

Yeah, doctors do that too.

Buy a book, watch some patients, figure out out. :rolleyes:

Don't take trading too seriously, whatever you do.
 
Nah I haven't. Not only am I the most cynical person I know, I'm also the tightest.

...and if you had a $20M inheritence you had to trade on your own.

You would not get any professional advice/training in how to handle it?

You'd go to the internet?
 
Quite the interesting thread.

My long-held view is that people waste all kinds of time and money on stuff they can't/won't use because they don't really know what they need to progress to the next step in their development (whatever that might be at the given point in time). The catch-22 aspect to that is lack of education is often the reason they don't know what they need.

I think this would be less of an issue if folks progressed from a foundational perspective (crawl before you walk, etc.), but so many of them come into the markets looking to go straight for some push-button way to make loads of money. Greed is one reason, obviously, but the marketing message they get constantly gives them the impression that it's all easy. As a result, they just grab for anything they think fits the "fast, easy" criteria.
 
Greed is one reason, obviously, but the marketing message they get constantly gives them the impression that it's all easy.

And thats why forums such as t2w are so damaging to new traders.

I'd argue that the establishment of unrealistic expectations by reading the kind of garbage posted here day in day out at forums such as t2w (posted by the sites official partners, vendors, or vendor affiliates, and occasionally by the sites own staff and management) has to have a significant impact on the likely success of a punter.

I dont think you can actually start to make progress until you unplug from that source of noise and distraction.
 
...and if you had a $20M inheritence you had to trade on your own.

You would not get any professional advice/training in how to handle it?

You'd go to the internet?

No I'd do what everyone else who manages money for a living does and get a professional qualification, network and then try to get as much practical and relevant experience as I could.
 
Now, on the topic of vendors - what about their altruistic cousins?

The forum mega-thread author that spreads disinformation to feed their own ego?

There was one on this site, although he has little credibility here now. Just last week he put an add for trainees in his signature and it was quietly removed. He won award after award, year after year despite the fact that NO-ONE EVER PROFITED FROM HIS INFORMATION.

How much time have people wasted on his stuff and how much money have people lost?

Old Trader_Dante has a lot to answer for and so do others of his ilk. He is now "The_Wizard" on Forex Factory. On his 'mega thread' there, he effectively explains how he 'matured' since his days at T2W and through his experience at Futex.

Still - his T2W pin bar thread still stands. It's total nonsense. The guy couldn't trade when he wrote it. I have no idea if he can now but the glimmer of hope is that he now understands that pin bars are 'effect' and that 'cause' is where the money is. A couple of years ago on here, he mentioned he only used pin bars on some markets, not all as it didn't work on all. Now he's past that and basically saying that by the time the pin forms, it's too late to enter anyway.

So why doesn't he come back here, add these comments to the end of his mega-threads and ask T2W owners to put a note on the first page to the effect that "this stuff doesn't actually work"?

That thread ran for years, what on earth was his motivation? To actually tell people that money could be made trading a certain way when he wasn't making money himself? Ego? Hubris? Hope?

I have no idea - but it is FUBAR.

Of course, Dante/Wizard is now mentoring people. I know one of his colleagues at Futex and let's just say he did not get kicked out for making too much money!

People say "there's plenty of info on the web to teach yourself how to trade". Well if that is true, how the hell do you wade your way through the "award winning" BS artists that run nonsense threads for years?

Ohhh maaaa dayyyzzzzz I CAN NOT believe just sent for man like that in public bled.

This thread has some serious entertainment potential now :LOL:
 
No I'd do what everyone else who manages money for a living does and get entertained by bank salesmen, who would take me out to the mens wimbledon final, or the last day of the 3rd test of the Ashes, and get me stinking drunk so I embarass myself. Then the following week I'd call up the salesman and buy whatever structured product he was selling that I don't understand, but if I don't give him any volume he won't take me to Silverstone! And, after all, as long as all my other real money manager mates are doing the same thing and we all have broadly similar positions, my job is safe because I won't get outperformed by anyone else.
.

fyp.
 
Now, on the topic of vendors - what about their altruistic cousins?

Hey, fellow vendor! How you doing?

It's been a long time! Wow, I can't remember the last time we crossed paths!

Oh yes, I know, it was when you were busy slating me and then er...recommending my posts (but don't worry, you didn't realise they were witten by me did you so you don't look too bad! ;-))

Anyway, how's the vending going? You making big profits? Reading your website I've realised that I really need to up my marketing game actually. You got a contact number for your web designer? I want those piggy banks growing fat with all that money!!!

And who wrote this?

"Know ahead of time where the market is going – before almost everyone else does"

"This information is going to seem so obvious; you will kick yourself for not thinking of it yourself"

"This is not a get rich quick scheme but trust me, once you have this down, the money will come."

"This is our most revolutionary product. Once you've used this tool, you will not be able to trade without it"

This is ALTRUISM at its best. No doubt about it. First class, dude. Did you study marketing?

And all particularly interesting since I asked a few of the larger order book traders in prop what they thought of it and the answer was somewhat amusing. Perhaps the made up colleague that informed you that I was kicked out would write you a fantastic reference though? ;-)

At any rate ; It would be really cool if rather than just spreading complete nonsense you actually backed up some of the tripe you spend ages writing. The simple fact is, you've literally never written a single post about me with any ounce of truth in it. I can take negative feedback - the market gives me more grief sometimes in a single day than you could dish out in a lifetime.

BUT, I wrote a quick guide to some of the more "oblique" terms you've used in your post. You know, just so people know what you really mean :)

he has little credibility here now

He hasn't posted much for well over a year now because the site is full of people like myself talking drivel.

he put an add for trainees

He put a link to free webinars on strategy to support a free thread. Sh*t. Wait. That's not 100% true. The latest one actually had a charge. 100% of the proceeds went to raise money for charity. Tom Piccin is fundraising for British Heart Foundation

NO-ONE EVER PROFITED FROM HIS INFORMATION.

As a vendor, I rely on selling how important the order book is, so it pays me to criticise anyone that can make money off a chart.

And I'm going to ignore PM's like this : "After reading it I literally went through every single one of your posts. Your words have really helped me take my trading to the next level." because if push came to shove, would he really post the other 1,682 he has in his inbox?

Oh, sure there is this one too that someone posted on his thread:

"Last nights was a winner. So thats makes 8/10 now A strike rate like I have never experienced before. " Fail Better - Page 154 @ Forex Factory

But that has to be a multi nick!!!

Seriously, Dion, I'm not being funny mate, but that thread - the one that was just "nonsense" on pin bars? Have you even read it? Go read through it and present the evidence here. Because from I can recall, there were a few key heads up ; only a few minor "calls"...like the all time low in the USDCAD, the all time high in GBPUSD, a 40% run up in EURGBP...If you actually spent one tenth of the time you take to rail on me and other vendors (whilst being one yourself - and really, that never looks good), and actually took some time to post something useful, I might be able to give you one iota of respect. Of course, I don't expect you to be able to make calls like I have! A few of your two/three ticks scalps in the ES would be a nice start. It's just the last time you started a thread - on understanding S/R - all you demonstrated was that you had a complete lack of understanding of it that verged on laughable.

Let's move on shall we?

It's total nonsense. The guy couldn't trade when he wrote it.

Yes, I know he did show a black and white, undeniable record to get into prop using the exact strategy he showed on the thread. But that was all LUCK!!!

He is now "The_Wizard" on Forex Factory.

He was the_wizard" in January 2007. Yes, that was a full ten months before he even started writing MMT. But let's not mention that - it doesn't do my argument any good.

How much time have people wasted on his stuff and how much money have people lost?

Oh, an interesting question actually. Aside from the fact that 95% of what I teach I provide for free, I would have throught the R:R is pretty good since anyone can see it works by just putting it in practice. I definetly have students that are struggling so far. I also have several that are trading six figures successfully and one that is trading seven. If you think this is BS, I am happy to provide you with their contact details including email/phone so you can talk with them in person :)

Why don't you call my "bluff"?

So why doesn't he come back here, add these comments to the end of his mega-threads and ask T2W owners to put a note on the first page to the effect that "this stuff doesn't actually work"?

LOL I suppose no one should move with the times and we should never try to get better by adapting what we do. But yes, the original material works very, very well and I really do have a list of references as long as my arm. I do apologise if you lack the ability to make any money from it. But that's no fault of my own! I tried!

Of course, Dante/Wizard is now mentoring people. I know one of his colleagues at Futex and let's just say he did not get kicked out for making too much money!

Would like someone like to clear this up once and for all? No, I don't mean an anonymous "colleague". Someone feel free to PM FUTEX (if you care that much) and ask them whether I was kicked out. They have my full permission to reveal the truth on the matter which should get around the privacy issue.

Right, I'm off to get ready for the market open.

Hit me back Mr Toast. If you ever swallow your pride, I will always be here to help you :)
 
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I'm going to be offensive now & say that this sort of stuff that is exactly the problem with trading forums. Actually, it's not intentionally being offensive, just a natural reaction to bu11sh1t.

[...]

Trading is a profession. Respect it as such. It's not something you get instructions for in the December issue of the Beano.

The reason why I never went for any expensive mentor/system is because I knew it was BS from the get-go. Any amount of time looking around on the 'net it should become obvious that stuff is all bogus.

I don't just espouse the internet because it's free, it's also because it's the only place to look. You will find the info and people you need if you look long enough -- and then realize that the only way to learn to trade is by doing it (hopefully on demo or with small stakes first).

The help I've been given was given freely, but it also has been tremendously appreciated. I will do the very same to any newbie by at least warning them against the dangers and pitfalls of trading -- as I believe most of the regulars on T2W already do!

Look, if you just start somewhere on the 'net you will eventually find what you need. I did. So did most other traders, I presume.

Would I actually pay for legit training? It depends on the context, probably. Do I prefer free? You bet. :cheesy:

And thats why forums such as t2w are so damaging to new traders.

No, new and gullible traders are damaging to new and gullible traders. The info is out there, and you don't need to pay a single red cent for it.

In terms of my development as a trader, T2W is the best thing that's happened to me so far. That's because I know how to harass ask the right people and what info looks good or not.

I do not buy the view that you can't learn from the 'net since it's exactly what I've done.
 
Rated 5 stars. Come on, Toast. Rebuttal.

We need to get Mr Charts and Captain Currency in here. It's like the alley scene in Anchorman.

Who told you about DT's post, Tomathy?

Drag in some more names/grasses and let's make this really messy.
 
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Rated 5 stars. Come on, Toast. Rebuttal.

We need to get Mr Charts and Captain Currency in here. It's like the alley scene in Anchorman.

Who told you about DT's post, Tomathy?

Drag in some more names/grasses and let's make this really messy.

lol,they should all have a trade off and we can price them according to 100 trades. Dont forget andrew mitchem and mike robinson
 
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lol,they should all have a trade off and we can price them according to 100 trades. Dont forget andrew mitchem and mike robinson

hehehe! We already had a d*ck swinging contest over here : http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/33868-post-your-p-l-28.html

I got cut to shreds as usual for actually coming up with the thread idea and posting my P&L several times.

Check out the first line on page 28 : "I am not prepared to disclose my earnings on the internet. Therefore all I will give is disjointed information that does not allow someone to join up the dots."

But the last time I was on the edge of Dion's tireless crusade (against his own ilk) I'm apparently a "charlatan" because I won't post a track record for the whole of the internet to see.

The level of hypocrisy almost defies belief :)

Let me reiterate. I have no problem with criticism. If someone has given my material a good go and hasn't benefited from something I offer then saying so is completely fair. What I take issue with is blatant lying.

I sometimes wonder whether Dion actually believes anything that he writes or whether he was just conceived on the wrong side of the bed!

But simple fact is, it's expectially pathetic coming from another vendor. Because regardless of whether he "teaches" or not (that will be his next argument, I'm not an educator) go to his website and then go to mine and tell me who is offering the biggest holy grail marketing BS.

Honestly.
 
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