1-2-3-Formations and Ross Hooks

Hi Quercus,
overtaken by events somewhat - but this does add immensely to my ability to spout off as if I knew something at the time...
First off, nothing to do with 1-2-3 originally - I was trading an earlier trend and was long, like Roberto (?) I trade when I can and frequently I have to leave a limit order and don't know squat for 6 hours or more... I set an ambitious limit that it missed, it then retraced before I knew I'd been sitting pretty - such is life!

When I saw it this chart screamed out the 1-2-3 I marked. That last bar is part of a consolidation in my view - it's an 'inside day' or whatever a 10 min bar equivalent is called - and the green bar before it is within the range of the red bar third last. Following the three the second red bar is also 'inside' the first one. This gives a '3' followed by (effectively, IMO) 3 down bars worth of movement, actually 5 bars showing a tendency to consolidate a bit. I don't count that last bar as a higher low - it's inside, to my mind it isn't showing bullishness but indecision. As it's obvious that the low of that bar is indeed above the previous one I ought to explain that an inside day in my version of TA is showing a bearish top and a bullish low - it suggests the bulls and bears are enjoying what we called a "cake and a**e party' in the RAF, implying a certain lack of decisiveness and order. I think it's wishful thinking to call it a vote for bull or bear, effectively a bar to be ignored - the bulls and bears will make their minds up at some point. I would be extremely reluctant to consider it a bullish sign at the end of a downtrend... in this particular chart I'd say 'downtrend in place, rally over and done with, shilly shallying about rather than getting on with penetrating the '2' point as expected. Not bullish - at best it seemed a case of 'it ought to be obviously plummeting, instead it seems to be undecided'.

I'd call that a bearish top, with 1-2-3 heading south, and as I was looking at it (somewhat woefully, as I was long still) it seemed to me to be a pretty convincing one at that - I was actually quite relieved to be at near enough breakeven, if it weren't for an apparent reluctance to plummet in those last half dozen or so bars I'd be far worse off. I was reading the 1-2-3 thread on screen 2 at the time, and whilst trying to convince myself to exit and go short I thought I'd post the picture I was looking at - it was hard for me (psychologically) to chuck it in and go short, I held a while longer then exited in fact... I'm allergic to reversing a trade as it's too easy to whipsaw yourself far more effectively than the RSI on a consolidating share if you do that <g>

It did seem to me that somebody with less 'involvement' at the time might glance at it and go 'crikey... what a stunner' and make a few bob... people have highlighted good trades I've seen at the right time, it seemed only fair to return the compliment if only by alerting those more able than myself to the potential.

I'll check it, I'm pretty sure it went down a dollar or so today - yeah, pretty big down day to 23.05, a smallish lower shadow on that so it's a shame I was at work until almost 7pm when it was all done and dusted!

I'll call the next 3 or 4 wrong, I wasn't really looking to say 'hey this is a short' it's just I know that it's quite common to see something an hour later and think 'how did I miss that?' Consequently I thought I'd post it as a significant pattern and leave the reader to decide what to do with it.... a bit timid I know, but you could have made decent money trading opposite me for the past month!
 
Am I getting it?

Just to see if I understand this pattern well enough I will post a chart which has the 1-2-3 labeled. I'm also posting a intraday chart which I drew on about 4-5 days ago which is showing the congestion range of the 1-2-3 pattern. Please let me know if I am on the right track in understanding this - thank you.

HG
 

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s-a said:
Just to see if I understand this pattern well enough I will post a chart which has the 1-2-3 labeled. I'm also posting a intraday chart which I drew on about 4-5 days ago which is showing the congestion range of the 1-2-3 pattern. Please let me know if I am on the right track in understanding this - thank you.

HG

s-a

I would say no. Price is in congestion with respect to the long bar previous to your labelling #1 bar.

erie
 
Just looking at the basic 123's and some trend lines, I prefer the other one on that chart.
 

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erierambler said:
s-a

I would say no. Price is in congestion with respect to the long bar previous to your labelling #1 bar.

erie

Hi erie, would you mind illulstrate, as there is a smaller bar between the long up-bar and the 'congestion' that does not seem to be in the range?
 
Jyde said:
Hi erie, would you mind illulstrate, as there is a smaller bar between the long up-bar and the 'congestion' that does not seem to be in the range?

Big Business has given you a good example to study.

erie
 
erierambler said:
Big Business has given you a good example to study.

erie


Sorry to be daft, but if it continues down, wouldn't s-a also be right?
Maybe I am just misunderstanding the congestion difinition... :?:
 
Jyde said:
Sorry to be daft, but if it continues down, wouldn't s-a also be right?
Maybe I am just misunderstanding the congestion difinition... :?:

Price will go where it wants to go, regardless of being right or wrong, the question was a simple one about a setup (1-2-3). The area being questioned was one of congestion which can be handled differently than a 1-2-3.
Have you read Joe Ross's, ' Law of Charts' ?

erie
 
erierambler said:
Price will go where it wants to go, regardless of being right or wrong, the question was a simple one about a setup (1-2-3). The area being questioned was one of congestion which can be handled differently than a 1-2-3.
Have you read Joe Ross's, ' Law of Charts' ?

erie

Are you referring to "ledges" ?
 
erierambler said:
Price will go where it wants to go, regardless of being right or wrong, the question was a simple one about a setup (1-2-3). The area being questioned was one of congestion which can be handled differently than a 1-2-3.
Have you read Joe Ross's, ' Law of Charts' ?

erie

I have indeed read it, yes. I am not implying that you are wrong in any way, I - and as I said, problably me misunderstanding something - am just asking why you see that as a congestion, as per the definition in JR's document.
 
Thanks guys, I'll re-read law of the charts and keep learning from this thread. I found reading that kind of tough going at first.

HG
 
Guys,
I am suddenly a little confused and need your help.

Assume we were in a downtrend and the price then stops descending. Also suppose, there are two traders: one who trades only 123s and one who trades only RHs.

RH Trader:
=========
Picture 1: The RH guy looks at the chart and says, right, this might be a RH, I will try a Trader's Trick Entry. He then places a sell stop order just below the low of the rally bar (the red line) and waits.

Picture 2: The rally continues. Our man moves up his sell stop order (the red line).

Picture 3: The order gets filled. So the RH man is now short.

123 Trader:
=========
Picture 1: The 123 guy looks at the chart and says, ooohh, this might be a trend reversal, I will wait to see if points 1 and 2 form.

Picture 2: The rally continues, point 2 still hasn't formed.

Picture 3: Point 2 has now formed. Our man sets up a buy stop order just above the current bar (the blue line).

Summary: The exact same set up and charts mean different things to different people. One guy is long, the other is short, both following JR methods.

My opinion: This invalidates the whole premise of TTE. The sensible idea is to wait for an actual breakout of point 2 and see if the original down-trend continues (i.e., RH) or reverses (i.e., 123).

Edit: I am having trouble uploading pictures from my work PC, so I am attaching a Word doc instead.
 

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pratbh,

Yes, I had thought this exactly as you have when i read it in the law of charts a couple of weeks ago. I thought I might be missing something about it so I zipped it and watched this thread hoping to reveal how best to use the TTE.

I hear what you're saying. What do others think here? I'm all ears...

HG
 
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pratbh said:
...
My opinion: This invalidates the whole premise of TTE. The sensible idea is to wait for an actual breakout of point 2 and see if the original down-trend continues (i.e., RH) or reverses (i.e., 123).
...

Thank you, pratbh, very well put! I a prior post, Joe Ross himself said that the 123 often failed, hence the strategy with the TTE to get out at break-even at minimum. WIthout the TTE...

... and watch out for the GBP today...

Edit: Not the GBP, damn.-it, the GDP, the GDP....
 
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pratbh

The idea of the TTE is to give you a free trade ( or closer to b/e if you are wrong ) both RH's and 123's do fail nothing is infallible, the success of any trading pattern is due to the momentum behind the move.

If you trade the RH with a TTE and a sell stop and get filled, even if the pattern is a failure it is likely you you will find a small number of ticks profit before we start to form point 3. How do we know the pattern is a failure ? because it needs to push past the point of the RH with some momentum and ideally increased volume, if not my money would be off the table.

So maybe you do get a failure, ideally at b/e or small loss and are looking for another entry, you are already aware that the RH has failed so the next possibility is an entry off a 123 low with a TTE on the correcting bars off point 2 with a buy stop that will only take us into the market if prices are moving in our direction, we get filled and the only decision to make is how long to leave the money on the table, but if we have been filled on a buy stop it is probable that we are already 1-2 ticks in profit, and the choice is do we have follow through or not. No follow through = money off the table.

Excellent Thread
 
GBP/USD seems to be ranging past few days.
But the EUR/AUD seems to me to be offering 1-2-3s galore.

Is it my imagination ?
 
OES,
The point is not whether the setup generates a failed trade or a good one. Every system generates failed entries.

The point is, if you can't make up your mind on whether to go long or short, there is a problem. Just imagine you are a trader who trades both 123s and RHs. How do you decide whenther to trade the RH (and go short) or to trade 123 (and go long) using TTE, in this particular case?
 
pratbh

I only trade 123's and RH's JR style and reversal bars non JR style.

One major point I take into consideration on RH is I will only trade the 1st and 2 nd after a breakout/reversal I am sure our EW friends will have something to say about this, but the important thing is , if you trade a RH with a TTE and it is a failed pattern the probability is that you will get out with a small loss/win or b/e. If you can trade and keep most of your failed patterns to such small hits then you will trade profitably.

I does not matter that you do not know whether a RH will turn into a 123 you cant, it is an event in the future. You only have to be confident that if your pattern does fail you will not take a big hit, money management is the biggest key to succeeding with this style of trading.

You need to be able to find the set ups in the 1st place , but just as importantly you have to recognise when a pattern has failed and it is time to take your money off the table.

If you trade the RH and then allow it to form into a 123 you will get burnt, you can only trade what is in front of you, yes you have to be aware of what may happen, but you must take whatever is in front of you. Trade the RH manage the trade, if it fails you have a small loss if it plays out you have your profit.

If your pattern fails you are looking for another entry and the patterns that will follow a failed RH will come from 123/ledge/congestion.

Remeber these are all high probability trades
 
Doesn't one come before the other? Shouldn't we as traders be flexible? Do they appear in all timeframes?
To me a RH is just a pullback in a trend, however long the timeframe, whereas the 1-2-3 is more of a reversal - so what kind of trader are you? One who trades pullbacks, or one who trades reversals?
I'm not trying to be clever, but this is a business with two sides in operation at ALL times, therefore it is up to you to decide which side you're on, if any! (maybe there are three sides! :rolleyes:)
Cheers
Q
 
Quercus and OES:
Thanks for your replies. I've been thinking about this and yes, now I understand it (I think).

The decision process:
=================

1. When a trend is underway (a trend that started with a 123 or a ledge breakout) we have to assume any correction is a pullback and not an impending reversal. The first pullback that occurs in a trend since the 123 breakout will be traded by RH. We won't even consider trading with 123.

2. If the trend indeed does continue, the RH trade will be successful. If not, the market might be reversing or we might be moving into a congestion, or it just might be market noise etc. We will wait and see if a 123 pattern forms on the opposite side. We will then trade the 123.

Is this a sensible approach?
 
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