A new forum - just for me!

[Steve]

Well not really just for me, but it is about the things I'll be getting into and what you all want to say about that. As some of you have already observed, I have been a bit quiet for a while but rest assured I have been extremely busy behind the scenes.

The main reason for the new forum is that i'll have quite a lot to say in the coming weeks (apart from next week when I'm on holiday - hurrah!) and I want to make sure it is all in the same place and does not get lost in the main forums, especially where things tend to take a different turn from the original subject.

It is your forum as much as mine so please treat it exactly as it is described, an exchange between you and me.

I'll be starting with some stuff later on tonight.

Best wishes to all.

Steve

 

[Steve]

OK let’s start from the top. Where do I see this going and what is going to be dealt with in the short and medium term?

First of all we need to make some admissions. We have been very heavily criticised in the past for some of the decisions we have made and some of the partnerships we have formed. We have also behaved in ways that very often have only made matters worse, leading to the very firm belief that there is some kind of agenda to rip off newbies in concert with the many scammers that are out there.

I have to accept that many of these criticisms are justified. There are things we did that we simply should not have done and I think we lost sight of what this community is all about.

But there is certainly no agenda to rip people off, it does not matter if you believe this or not at this stage, it is the deeds of the coming months (and years) that will count. In fact, I think that T2W has a golden opportunity to do the exact opposite, to represent and protect traders. In some ways , thanks to certain members we already do this, but it is not a joint effort and it should be. We just have to figure out how it works in practice.

We also allowed some disgraceful behaviour from our members who clearly don’t know how to interact with other human beings in a sensible and reasonable way even when opinions might be very different. This is going to have to change.

I could go on but I’m sure you get the point. We are where we are and I have to do something about it. We have lost many valuable contributors and we have a site that is much quieter than it should be. We also have many things that need to changed but I can’t do it all at once and some things will be a greater priority than others.

This is getting a bit long now so I’ll leave these thoughts with you and return to it later on.

Steve

 

[wackypete2]

We also allowed some disgraceful behaviour from our members who clearly don’t know how to interact with other human beings in a sensible and reasonable way even when opinions might be very different. This is going to have to change.

Steve

Peter

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Name and shame!

 

[Steve]

I’ll continue now with an idea as to where I’ll be spending my time in the coming months.

The most important thing to share is my overall vision for T2W and it’s actually pretty simple.

It’s about the members. That’s it.

We have to get back to being a thriving community where people want to be, where they are able to have real trading discussions in a safe and enjoyable environment.

This does not mean taking all the fun out of it – many people have asked me if I’m going to ban lulz or lead a campaign against it. No, is the simple answer. Personally I find a lot of it very funny , it’s all about boundaries and we need to make sure that we are not just about the lulz, something that many people have accused us of in the recent past.

As I have already said, I think we should also become more of a voice for our members and deal decisively with the vendor situation, I’ll post more on this before I go on holiday next week.

I’ll also be making sure that our commercial side is focused on benefiting our members by (for example) securing special deals with suppliers, deals where there is no sharing of any discounts, it will all be passed to you. It is early days and I’ll keep you posted on how this develops.

Right, that’s enough for today. I have a lot more to say but there's no point in bombarding you with all of it at once, especially as this is meant to be an exchange.

Steve

 

[0007]

We also allowed some disgraceful behaviour from our members who clearly don’t know how to interact with other human beings in a sensible and reasonable way even when opinions might be very different. This is going to have to change.
Steve

Thank goodness this is to change! Though I have never been on the receiving end (or giving, for that matter) it is that kind of behaviour that has driven me away from what at times is a valuable discussion forum, on many occasions.

I hope you are successful in this quest but as I'm sure you already realise, you're dealing with people.

 

[Steve]

Thank goodness this is to change! Though I have never been on the receiving end (or giving, for that matter) it is that kind of behaviour that has driven me away from what at times is a valuable discussion forum, on many occasions.

I hope you are successful in this quest but as I'm sure you already realise, you're dealing with people.

Yes that's a very good point and people will sometimes behave very badly, especially when they can hide behind the cloak of internet anonimity. But that does not excuse the extremes of personal attacks on our staff, ridicule of fellow members, bad language to name but a few.

It is like any form of bad behaviour, if it goes unpunished it continues and eventually becomes the norm and it takes time and determination to stop it. Both of which I have.

 

[DionysusToast]

Peter

Pete

 

[Shakone]

We have to get back to being a thriving community where people want to be, where they are able to have real trading discussions in a safe and enjoyable environment....

But that does not excuse the extremes of personal attacks on our staff, ridicule of fellow members, bad language to name but a few.

Yes, but then there's the problem of banning a good contributor because he swears or criticises staff. That doesn't seem worth it. A recent case would be theBramble, who made some valid criticism, but posted somewhat harshly towards Timsk. The post deleted and poster banned (still?). From what I read it didn't merit either, and since posts are gone, we can't see if he posted anything that did merit a banning.

It's good that you want real discussion, it's good you want a better atmosphere, but if you're banning and deleting posts for this, then you'll lose a lot of good contributors.

 

[DionysusToast]

Yes, but then there's the problem of banning a good contributor because he swears or criticises staff.

So bad behaviour should be excused if your other posts are positive?

 

[Shakone]

So bad behaviour should be excused if your other posts are positive?

Depends on the level of bad behaviour, and depends on what your priorities are.

What Wasp posted for example (according to reports) was illegal, and that's obviously bannable and should be deleted, regardless of anything good he might provide regarding trading. Criticising the way someone does their job, is not remotely the same.

When you say 'bad behaviour' what exactly is meant? How many posters here haven't at one time or another committed some bad behaviour?

 

[DionysusToast]

I didn't see TheBramble misbehave and tbh - I would expect a bit of sarcasm from him but no nastiness.

We all get pi$$y from time to time, I think a holiday doesn't hurt in some cases but that will cause some people to leave forever.

Certainly trading is no place for the meek but it's this whole "If he can't take our abuse, he won't make a good trader" attitude sucks.

 

[0007]

Yes, but then there's the problem of banning a good contributor because he swears or criticises staff. That doesn't seem worth it. A recent case would be theBramble, who made some valid criticism, but posted somewhat harshly towards Timsk. The post deleted and poster banned (still?). From what I read it didn't merit either, and since posts are gone, we can't see if he posted anything that did merit a banning.

It's good that you want real discussion, it's good you want a better atmosphere, but if you're banning and deleting posts for this, then you'll lose a lot of good contributors.

In my book, if a contributor can't express himself without bad language and otherwise inappropriate standards then his input is not worthy of attention and only goes to demonstrate shortcomings in his ability to articulate -- which may well read over to the relevance and quality of the point he is trying to make anyway. In many other circles it is possible to have meaningful discussion and still get your point across very effectively, even demolish the thesis of an opposing contributor, without resorting to the behaviour which Steve is attempting to eradicate.

It's a culture thing isn't it? -- And it's about time somebody put their foot down.

 

[Hoggums]

Personally I think the wasp posts should be there and highlighted along with a full synopsis of what went on to warn other people of similar schemes going on right now.

In the case of wasp and with so many others - although illegal - his initial intentions were no-doubt honourable. He thought he could make money and wanted to leverage other peoples so that he could make a living from it himself while returning them a decent profit. I'm pretty sure there was no bad-intentions at the start.

However things started to go wrong, and unable to admit his losses to his investors started to doctor his statements & P/L eventually leading to bankruptcy proceedings and a slap from the FSA.

It's actually very hard to get this information from the T2W forums. I think it should be there in the beginners forums...

 

[Shakone]

In my book, if a contributor can't express himself without bad language and otherwise inappropriate standards then his input is not worthy of attention and only goes to demonstrate shortcomings in his ability to articulate -- which may well read over to the relevance and quality of the point he is trying to make anyway. In many other circles it is possible to have meaningful discussion and still get your point across very effectively, even demolish the thesis of an opposing contributor, without resorting to the behaviour which Steve is attempting to eradicate.

It's a culture thing isn't it? -- And it's about time somebody put their foot down.

Sure, I understand this view, I generally try to be polite. However, it's not that someone can't express without bad language, but that on a particular occasion they use it. Now if you're going to ignore anyone who has ever used bad language, then you're not really going to get very far, because that's almost everyone.

Yes perhaps it is a culture thing. So is being oversensitive to criticism or bad language.

 

[Shakone]

Personally I think the wasp posts should be there and highlighted along with a full synopsis of what went on to warn other people of similar schemes going on right now.

In the case of wasp and with so many others - although illegal - his initial intentions were no-doubt honourable. He thought he could make money and wanted to leverage other peoples so that he could make a living from it himself while returning them a decent profit. I'm pretty sure there was no bad-intentions at the start.

However things started to go wrong, and unable to admit his losses to his investors started to doctor his statements & P/L eventually leading to bankruptcy proceedings and a slap from the FSA.

It's actually very hard to get this information from the T2W forums. I think it should be there in the beginners forums...

Actually, I was talking about certain illegal images that he was said to have posted which should be deleted. The other issue, yes, posts should still be there.

 

[Lightning McQueen]

Depends on the level of bad behaviour, and depends on what your priorities are.

What Wasp posted for example (according to reports) was illegal, and that's obviously bannable and should be deleted, regardless of anything good he might provide regarding trading. Criticising the way someone does their job, is not remotely the same.

When you say 'bad behaviour' what exactly is meant? How many posters here haven't at one time or another committed some bad behaviour?

the era around that time was by far the worst. there's not been much seen in recent times that rival the disgusting images and vile language posted for laughs back then. quite where the position has come from that the boards are full of it these days i'm at a loss

regards the bramble outbursts, i did not see all of it. though i've seen far worse what i did see of it wasn't overly pleasant. fair enough that he was banned i believe, otherwise he'd have just carried on. i've pm'd what i did catch and you can make your own mind up

 

[0007]

Sure, I understand this view, I generally try to be polite. However, it's not that someone can't express without bad language, but that on a particular occasion they use it. Now if you're going to ignore anyone who has ever used bad language, then you're not really going to get very far, because that's almost everyone.

Yes perhaps it is a culture thing. So is being oversensitive to criticism or bad language.

I take your point also -- well made. It's not bad language as such that's really a problem, it's the context and the way in which it is used. Having a military background I know all about bad language and it is probably only the British Grunt that can complete a full sentence of up to 10 words using only the F-word and still convey his meaning effectively. I wouldn't be offended by that in an appropriate setting but on the other hand it probably wouldn't serve as an effective contribution to the discussion on a technical matter where all sorts of possibilities need to be explored/ explained.

I think it comes down to common sense and decency and the great majority of people understand this and can practise it if they wish to.

 

[the hare]

I didn't see TheBramble misbehave and tbh - I would expect a bit of sarcasm from him but no nastiness.

I witnessed the bramble debacle, and in my opinion, although I was 100% in agreement with the sentiment being expressed, he overstepped the mark in his personal criticism of Tim.

The point is though I suspect that even if he had been polite, he'd have still have been banned for expressing a difference in opinion. Indeed my last ban was simply due to a difference of opinion that staff took exception too.

Ironically t2w's CEO states on this thread that they've lost valuable contributors, he admits that the site is quiet, he admits mistakes have been made regarding their choice of partners, and the way that those mistakes are dealt with.

Although It seams acceptable for Steve to make those points, any other member would run a real risk of incurring at least a temporary ban for saying the same. At the very least they be subjected to comments from staff informing them they where posting nonsense

Ironically Tim has spent the last 3 months or so arguing that their choice of partner offers where perfectly fine, that the handling and subsequent cover up and deletion of threads was ok, that site membership is increasing, that good members are not being lost, and that the community is thriving. It's little wonder in those circumstances that the bramble felt it necessary to tell a few home truths.

Steve's posts highlight why a clean sweep is required. He's pulling in one direction, whilst the content management team are taking every opportunity possible to undermine that message with an alternative agenda.

It's good lulz, but I am sad to see the destruction of what was once a valuable resource

 

[barjon]

Just to try and put the Bramble thing to bed so that it doesn't continually divert an important discussion.

As Hare says, Bramble went OTT in his personal criticism of Tim and his post was deleted for that reason alone. The valid points he made were a casualty of that, but they were not the reason for deletion. You don't have to look far to find similar points of criticism about T2W still on the boards.

Brambles reaction to the deletion was to post a series of more extreme insults accompanied by demands to be banned. So he was. Simple as that.