What is money? Where does our money come from?

[darktone]

Well then start saving seashells, peanuts or whatever else in your opinion is money...perhaps Martinghoul can help you with some ideas... as for me and my opinion, I am storing my savings in gold and silver.

I think PMs are a great store of value, but neither imo are 'money' atm. Why you get so prickly about anything that isnt GOLD STANDARD?

 

[counter_violent]

I think PMs are a great store of value, but neither imo are 'money' atm. Why you get so prickly about anything that isnt GOLD STANDARD?

It's called "pump and dump"

 

[Martinghoul]

And you offer nothing but Establishment propaganda...and there we have it.

Well, you see that's exactly my point... It is very easy to dismiss a view that happens to disagree with yours by labelling it "propaganda" or smth of that sort. Frequently resorting to this tactic betrays your inability to actually support your viewpoint with logic and/or factual evidence.

 

[new_trader]

I think PMs are a great store of value, but neither imo are 'money' atm. Why you get so prickly about anything that isnt GOLD STANDARD?

The title of your thread is "What is money? Where does our money come from?" How can this be correctly answered without talking about gold and silver?

Anyway, right or wrong, I have over 1 billion people who agree with me :smart:

India's love affair with gold - 60 Minutes - CBS News

 

[new_trader]

Well, you see that's exactly my point... It is very easy to dismiss a view that happens to disagree with yours by labelling it "propaganda" or smth of that sort. Frequently resorting to this tactic betrays your inability to actually support your viewpoint with logic and/or factual evidence.

So, the US constitution and the Coinage act of 1792 aren't factual? These aren't clear and concise documents that specify that only gold and silver can be used to clear debts? And that the US dollar is defined clearly as a specific weight of silver? What more do you want?

Dollars or Units: $1 371 4/16 grain (24.1 g) pure or 416 grain (27.0 g) standard silver

 

[darktone]

The title of your thread is "What is money? Where does our money come from?" How can this be correctly answered without talking about gold and silver?

Anyway, right or wrong, I have over 1 billion people who agree with me :smart:

India's love affair with gold - 60 Minutes - CBS News

Im not saying we cant talk about gold or silver, but to say that they are the only thing can be used as money. I think, is wrong.

Ive got a question for you. As a 100% gold standard man can you tell me what the subtle but important difference between the two 5 dollar notes in the attachment is?

 

[new_trader]

Im not saying we cant talk about gold or silver, but to say that they are the only thing can be used as money. I think, is wrong.

You are putting words in my mouth now

I said money emerged from the FREE market as a solution to the problems associated with barter. Because of their natural qualities, gold and silver out-competed all other mediums of exchange and ended up as the medium of exchange around the world. This isn't an opinion, do you see?

 

[Martinghoul]

So, the US constitution and the Coinage act of 1792 aren't factual? These aren't clear and concise documents that specify that only gold and silver can be used to clear debts? And that the US dollar is defined clearly as a specific weight of silver? What more do you want?

Dollars or Units: $1 371 4/16 grain (24.1 g) pure or 416 grain (27.0 g) standard silver

Well, you see that's exactly my point... Did you not listen when I responded to this in our previous discussion? Let me repeat...

a) As to the Constitution, the point of the clause (as should be abundantly clear from the language) is not to prevent issuance of paper money. Its point is to deny that right to the individual States and make sure that the printing of money is solely the privilege of the Federal government (with the goal of creating the USA as a currency union, rather than a collection of independent states). In fact, there's nothing in the Constitution about a Federal gold or silver standard.

b) As to the Coinage Act of 1792. That was an Act of Congress. What makes this particular Coinage Act objectively more special than the Coinage Act of 1965? In fact, someone as versed in US history and law as you appear to be, should be well aware of the fact that the Coinage Act of 1965 supersedes the Act of 1792 (as specifically mentioned by President Lyndon B. Johnson in his remarks when he signed the bill).

Because of their natural qualities, gold and silver out-competed all other mediums of exchange and ended up as the medium of exchange around the world.

If I may respond to this... It sure looks to me that later on, because of its natural qualities, paper money out-competed all other mediums of exchange and ended up as the medium of exchange around the world. Imagine that! Progress is a wonderful thing, innit?

 

[darktone]

You are putting words in my mouth now

I said money emerged from the FREE market as a solution to the problems associated with barter. Because of their natural qualities, gold and silver out-competed all other mediums of exchange and ended up as the medium of exchange around the world. This isn't an opinion, do you see?

Its not my intention to words in anyones mouth .
I also agree that gold and silver have been used as money / a medium of exchange etc. But gold isnt used today as it was back then.
That gold is money, id say thats your opinion.

Anways, those 5 dollar bills. Can you tell me what the differences are?

 

[new_trader]

Well, you see that's exactly my point... Did you not listen when I responded to this in our previous discussion? Let me repeat...

[edit]

If I may respond to this... It sure looks to me that later on, because of its natural qualities, paper money out-competed all other mediums of exchange and ended up as the medium of exchange around the world. Imagine that! Progress is a wonderful thing, innit?

All you are 'proving' is how the US constitution has been misinterpreted and subverted over time by gutless lawmakers. Where in the Constitution does is allow congress to issue bills of credit or print paper money?

Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be
uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and
with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject
of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the
Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin
of the United States;


The Australian Constitution:

115 States not to coin moneyA State shall not coin money, nor make anything but gold and silver coin a legal tender in payment of debts.

Notice is doesn't say seashells or peanuts or Martinghouls...?

Fiat money is progress? You've got to be either kidding or stupid.

What have we had in the last 10 years? Dotcom bubble, Housing bubble, Global Financial Crisis, Sovereign debt crisis...real progress!

 

[Martinghoul]

All you are 'proving' is how the US constitution has been misinterpreted and subverted over time by gutless lawmakers. Where in the Constitution does is allow congress to issue bills of credit or print paper money?

How very interesting? Now you're quoting a different passage and you even bring in the Aussie constitution... None of it makes your argument more valid. Again, as a constitutional law scholar, you must surely be aware that the US Supreme Court, which is the ONLY entity whose interpretation of the Consitution matters, has ruled on the issue. Look up "Legal Tender Cases", as well as the "Necessary and Proper Clause". Now, of course, you would claim that all these people are "gutless lawmakers" who don't know the Consitution as well as you do. I hope you'll forgive me when I tell you that your claims are a bit, shall we way, outlandish.

I am not familiar with the Aussie Constitution, so I can't really comment.

Fiat money is progress? You've got to be either kidding or stupid.

What have we had in the last 10 years? Dotcom bubble, Housing bubble, Global Financial Crisis, Sovereign debt crisis...real progress!

Well, there you go again... I know it's tempting and easy to dismiss any argument by labeling it either a joke or by describing it as stupid. However, like I said before, your inability to address my points in a substantial manner speaks volumes.

As to the last 10 years, how exactly are you going to demonstrate causality here? I mean that's like me claiming that the Gold Standard was responsible for the Titanic. You're gonna have to do better than that.

 

[new_trader]

How very interesting? Now you're quoting a different passage and you even bring in the Aussie constitution... None of it makes your argument more valid. Again, as a constitutional law scholar, you must surely be aware that the US Supreme Court, which is the ONLY entity whose interpretation of the Consitution matters, has ruled on the issue. Look up "Legal Tender Cases", as well as the "Necessary and Proper Clause". Now, of course, you would claim that all these people are "gutless lawmakers" who don't know the Consitution as well as you do. I hope you'll forgive me when I tell you that your claims are a bit, shall we way, outlandish.

Actually, they aren't really my claims exactly. They are the claims of an expert in Constitutional money. I would ask you to watch this video but I know you will dismiss it as silly and ask me to express it in my own words. My only claim from the beginning is that the FREE market chose gold and silver as money and it emerged from barter.

"What is Constitutional Money?" with Edwin Vieira -- Ron Paul Money Lecture Series, Pt 2/3 - YouTube

Well, there you go again... I know it's tempting and easy to dismiss any argument by labeling it either a joke or by describing it as stupid. However, like I said before, your inability to address my points in a substantial manner speaks volumes.

As to the last 10 years, how exactly are you going to demonstrate causality here? I mean that's like me claiming that the Gold Standard was responsible for the Titanic. You're gonna have to do better than that.

Your argument has ALWAYS been that paper fiat money is better than gold because Central banks have the ability to print it at will. That is your argument in a nutshell. My argument is that the very problem with fiat money is that Central Banks have the ability to print it at will. I say look at all the booms and busts since coming off the gold standard and especially the last 10 years...you, no doubt will conclude that there are other...esoteric reasons for these booms and busts and has nothing to do with unrestrained expansion of the money supply.

 

[barjon]

I think I'll have to row in with NT about the Gold Standard. Of course, the main reason money notes were backed by gold was to give people confidence and trust in the money notes.

It's far easier to "manage" the money supply without the encumbrance of gold in the background - which I guess was the main reason for coming off the GS - and with that done it's but a short step from judicious management of the money supply to injudicious manipulation of it. A factor all the more prevalent today when you don't even have to bother with creating money notes anymore and just create it by numbers in a computer.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is entirely responsible for the booms, busts, bubbles and whatnot, but where it's been on the injudicious side it can't have helped. Unless it's all creatively expunged from the accounts somehow, the vast QE money creation has to end up in inflation unless everyone QEs to the same degree which leaves the relativities unchanged.

 

[new_trader]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is entirely responsible for the booms, busts, bubbles and whatnot, but where it's been on the injudicious side it can't have helped. Unless it's all creatively expunged from the accounts somehow, the vast QE money creation has to end up in inflation unless everyone QEs to the same degree which leaves the relativities unchanged.

Ok Jon, but watch this lecture and then decide.

"What About Money Causes Economic Crises?" with Peter Schiff - Ron Paul Money Lecture Series, Pt 3/3 - YouTube

 

[darktone]

I think I'll have to row in with NT about the Gold Standard. Of course, the main reason money notes were backed by gold was to give people confidence and trust in the money notes.

It's far easier to "manage" the money supply without the encumbrance of gold in the background - which I guess was the main reason for coming off the GS - and with that done it's but a short step from judicious management of the money supply to injudicious manipulation of it. A factor all the more prevalent today when you don't even have to bother with creating money notes anymore and just create it by numbers in a computer.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is entirely responsible for the booms, busts, bubbles and whatnot, but where it's been on the injudicious side it can't have helped. Unless it's all creatively expunged from the accounts somehow, the vast QE money creation has to end up in inflation unless everyone QEs to the same degree which leaves the relativities unchanged.

The theory of having a gold (or any commodity) standard is the quantity of money is fixed to the quantity of commodity, the problem i see with this is there is nothing to stop the hoarding / monopoly of that commodity. (the great depression)

Booms / busts bubbles etc are a direct result of bad management of the money supply. In good times banks have an incentive to lend excessively (expand the supply), the reverse in bad times.

QE (printing) excessively, is inflation.

All as i currently understand it.

 

[darktone]

NT, ive seen that that video set before. It only considers the gold standard though. If you only have a hammer then you see every problem as a nail.

 

[darktone]

Does anybody reading this thread have any idea what the difference is between the two 5 dollar bills in the attachment?
Im not talking about value on ebay or that they look different.

 

[barjon]

The theory of having a gold (or any commodity) standard is the quantity of money is fixed to the quantity of commodity, the problem i see with this is there is nothing to stop the hoarding / monopoly of that commodity. (the great depression)

Booms / busts bubbles etc are a direct result of bad management of the money supply. In good times banks have an incentive to lend excessively (expand the supply), the reverse in bad times.

QE (printing) excessively, is inflation.

All as i currently understand it.

Don't really disagree, darktone, but maybe QE is more properly described as devaluation, which is inflationary depending on what's happening elsewhere.

If you have 1000 darks and I have 1000 bars, then 1 dark = 1 bar
If I create another 1000 out of thin air, then 1 dark = 2 bars (devaluation)
But, if you create a 1000 too, then 1 dark = 1 bar and the status quo is maintained

 

[barjon]

ps: fed bill, US bill

 

[darktone]

Don't really disagree, darktone, but maybe QE is more properly described as devaluation, which is inflationary depending on what's happening elsewhere.

If you have 1000 darks and I have 1000 bars, then 1 dark = 1 bar
If I create another 1000 out of thin air, then 1 dark = 2 bars (devaluation)
But, if you create a 1000 too, then 1 dark = 1 bar and the status quo is maintained

Good example .
This line i think most accurately describes our current situation, with darks being total goods+services (+ anything else i may have missed) and bars being money.
If I create another 1000 out of thin air, then 1 dark = 2 bars (devaluation)

This situation imo wouldnt be quite so bad if people knew about it. But they dont imo. Its just not taught in the mainstream yet money plays such a huge part of all our lives.