USA Debt Crisis

counter_violent said:
Govt employees should be about 15% of the work force and the rest should be in the private sector doing something useful. As for the unemployables, they really ought to be doing something for their handout...there seems to be a line of thinking now that they would be a liability in the workplace, so better leave them be at home :LOL: The easy option seems to be to get migrant workers in to do the jobs that aren't being covered. So essentially the govt cops out of the problem of dealing with the long term workshy unemployable. Quite how this is proper and affordable spending of my money by a succession of govt's who I didn't vote for is simply beyond me !
Click to expand...

I hope this is a windup post,

I shall spell it out just in case you are for real.

Most workers from other countries working here are either

a) Young people sharing accommodation, with no families to support and can therefore afford to take jobs that you and I cannot.

or

b) Filling the jobs gap that has been created by UK governments failing higher educational policies.


As for the “the rest should be in private sector doing something useful” You could not leave your front door without the help of the public sector (If you had a front door at all without a police force it would have probably been kicked down long ago) there would be no pavement to walk on, no roads, would you not find an ambulance useful, if needed? Etc. etc.
 
The unskilled element of migrant labour should be stopped, i'm sure we have enough people to do what needs to be done. Also there is a growing ageing population many of whom don't want to retire but perhaps would be quite happy doing some part time work to suppliment pension income etc.

Hi cv,

To comment one of yours, above.

The immigration problem cannot be controlled, let alone stopped. If you were on the front line of the invasion of Africans landing in Spain you'd know what I mean. Now that there is no construction work for them they are standing around on country roads waiting for some farmer to give them a job. That is not happening and they are blocking the villages before moving up the peninsular to France and points north. There is little criminal element, they are pleased to be over here for the social security and all things nice and they are puzzled that it does not exist for them because they have no papers. They can't get papers until they get a job and they can't get a job without papers.

These are not counted by the politicians---they don't exist. There are cases of municipalities putting them on buses and taking them, at night, to another town , giving them a few euros to tide them over and telling them not to come back.

As cases like what is happening in Somalia get worse, more of these people are going to come into Europe. As they are drowning in their hundreds every month in their desperation to get across the water in anything that floats, I can't see what we can do to frighten them off. As soon as they land the worst of it is over for them.

This is about just one of your comments and each one requires a thread of its own.
 
Splitlink said:
The unskilled element of migrant labour should be stopped, i'm sure we have enough people to do what needs to be done. Also there is a growing ageing population many of whom don't want to retire but perhaps would be quite happy doing some part time work to suppliment pension income etc.

Hi cv,

To comment one of yours, above.

The immigration problem cannot be controlled, let alone stopped. If you were on the front line of the invasion of Africans landing in Spain you'd know what I mean. Now that there is no construction work for them they are standing around on country roads waiting for some farmer to give them a job. That is not happening and they are blocking the villages before moving up the peninsular to France and points north. There is little criminal element, they are pleased to be over here for the social security and all things nice and they are puzzled that it does not exist for them because they have no papers. They can't get papers until they get a job and they can't get a job without papers.

These are not counted by the politicians---they don't exist. There are cases of municipalities putting them on buses and taking them, at night, to another town , giving them a few euros to tide them over and telling them not to come back.

As cases like what is happening in Somalia get worse, more of these people are going to come into Europe. As they are drowning in their hundreds every month in their desperation to get across the water in anything that floats, I can't see what we can do to frighten them off. As soon as they land the worst of it is over for them.

This is about just one of your comments and each one requires a thread of its own.
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Hi Split,

That might be a problem in Spain, but I don't see why that means it's a problem for the UK unless we actively decide that we would like it to be. People make rational decisions, which is why the UK gets "refugees" who have passed through many safe countries such as France and Spain.

I am a great believer in the huge benefits that immigration can bring, by the way. I do think though that a country should make it's own immigration policy and that it should also be a country that is fitted to receiving immigrants. The United States was for a long time an excellent example of this, which is why it has benefited so hugely from immigration.

Sadly, I do not think that Britain is such a place - although it could be made so with a little effort, which would be of benefit to both immigrants and the current population.
 
The trouble the UK has, which in some ways is unique, particularly for a small country,
is the number of commonwealth citizens who have automatic, or easier UK citizenship rights.

Then again, as the UK built an empire using their countries natural resources, its not surprising the situation exists.
One of the problems with this type of immigration is state burden for dependents, in a lot of cases,
health and education costs to the state outweigh tax paid...
That is not always the case though obviously, I hasten to add.
 
Liquid validity said:
The trouble the UK has, which in some ways is unique, particularly for a small country,
is the number of commonwealth citizens who have automatic, or easier UK citizenship rights.

Then again, as the UK built an empire using their countries natural resources, its not surprising the situation exists.

One of the problems with this type of immigration is state burden for dependents, in a lot of cases,
health and education costs to the state outweigh tax paid...
That is not always the case though obviously, I hasten to add.
Click to expand...

A problem for Spain, which is a double whammy, is not only its proximity to Aftica but, also, as you mention about the British Empire, Spain´s old empire. I believe, from my own view of things, that there is an equal number of South American and Phillipine people, perhaps more, than Africans. And the Chinese! Don't know where to start.

All this is a new era. We have to be flexible to change because that is the way of things. Stopping it is like whistling in the wind.

As far as NHS is concerned, which is a problem for all of us, no matter where we live, I think can that only be solved by personal payment---just like any insurance company. Those that do not pay for it only get the very basics. If we had got what we had paid in there would not be the same immense problems that we have today. Our children are paying for our elderly. That is an impossible situation that I can remember debating with my BIL decades ago. It is a political hot potato that will never be solved in a democratic society, especially under a socialist government.

This has turned into a rant. Oh,well! :(
 
Talking of the NHS, thats another potential cost saving - means testing with deferred contributions,
not full payment or health insurance as in U.S.
Similar to prescription fees - a contribution to the costs for those able to do so.

About time they did that for drunken half wits or self inflicted high risk medical treatment
- sports etc. Never happen in the UK though, but then again I wouldn't rule it out the way things are headed with cuts...
 
You all need to give your heads a great shake, we are all living beyond our means. We are not entitled to healthcare or councils, we need to toughen up and work for ourselves.

And, immigration after Europeans to America did not benefit the economy at all, it was the protestant work ethic, which will prevail after all the liberals have had their immigration bonanza!

Look at the biggest companies for evidence, the KO, WMT, AXP, PG, JNJ.
 
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Now that S&P have downgraded the US to AA+ are peop;le 'expecting' another sell off taking on Monday morning?

or do you think it will just cause the DOW to tank?
 
Didn't the US starting with Raeganomics along with Thatcherism start off this period of deregulation and low taxation and cutting back on public services and the trumpeting of the free market. You know sell off national assets to the private sector. Decimate anything that needs a subsidy but not the banks.

These so called successfull policies have been pretty much pursued since the 1980s.

So perhaps it's just me but proposing more of the same seems to be wrong.


I can see how CV has played on peoples prejudices to divert the main focus away from our financial structure - lack of regulation to one of much closer home issues of unemployment, migrants and social services for the unemployed. Yet in my opinion these are the consequences and not the root cause.

I feel most people don't get the bigger picture so they focus on what they can see near home.


I can see both sides of the arguement but not sure the solutions offered are not more of the same which got us into this mess in the first place. Perhaps these policies didn't work because it wasn't implemented far and deep enough. Wasn't Blair voted in because people got fed up of poor public services and excessive cuts???

So lets cut taxes more and reduce public services even further.

Let's ban NHS and Disability and Social Security allowances altogether.

We can privatise education too.


Only role left to government will then be police, the courts and defence.

Basically - trying to play out the solutions to the n-th degree to see what society may look like if policies implemented fully. :rolleyes:
 
mb11 said:
Now that S&P have downgraded the US to AA+ are peop;le 'expecting' another sell off taking on Monday morning?

or do you think it will just cause the DOW to tank?
Click to expand...


I'm cynical - usually on good news markets tank and bad news they rally.

I'm planning on waiting an hour or so and go with the flow.

Don't be the first lemming would be my advice.
 
Atilla said:
Didn't the US starting with Raeganomics along with Thatcherism start off this period of deregulation and low taxation and cutting back on public services and the trumpeting of the free market. You know sell off national assets to the private sector. Decimate anything that needs a subsidy but not the banks.

These so called successfull policies have been pretty much pursued since the 1980s.

So perhaps it's just me but proposing more of the same seems to be wrong.


I can see how CV has played on peoples prejudices to divert the main focus away from our financial structure - lack of regulation to one of much closer home issues of unemployment, migrants and social services for the unemployed. Yet in my opinion these are the consequences and not the root cause.
Click to expand...

Completely agree.
The issue has never been about the cause (not for me anyway).
The cause is not the cure...
Its about the solution right now.

Tightening financial regulation right now would be worse than spending cuts.
Simple reason, increased financial regulation would send already weakened markets
into turmoil - actually increasing the burden on taxpayers by one of the following:

1/ Tax payer sudsidised bailouts

2/ No bailout and a depression as a result affecting tax payers direct living costs and disposable income.

At least with spending cuts alone you don't have the additional pressure of a market crash.
The west is up to its eyeballs in debt, how will spending more solve the problem...
 
Atilla said:
Didn't the US starting with Raeganomics along with Thatcherism start off this period of deregulation and low taxation and cutting back on public services and the trumpeting of the free market. You know sell off national assets to the private sector. Decimate anything that needs a subsidy but not the banks.

These so called successfull policies have been pretty much pursued since the 1980s.

So perhaps it's just me but proposing more of the same seems to be wrong.


I can see how CV has played on peoples prejudices to divert the main focus away from our financial structure - lack of regulation to one of much closer home issues of unemployment, migrants and social services for the unemployed. Yet in my opinion these are the consequences and not the root cause.

I feel most people don't get the bigger picture so they focus on what they can see near home.


I can see both sides of the arguement but not sure the solutions offered are not more of the same which got us into this mess in the first place. Perhaps these policies didn't work because it wasn't implemented far and deep enough. Wasn't Blair voted in because people got fed up of poor public services and excessive cuts???

So lets cut taxes more and reduce public services even further.

Let's ban NHS and Disability and Social Security allowances altogether.

We can privatise education too.


Only role left to government will then be police, the courts and defence.

Basically - trying to play out the solutions to the n-th degree to see what society may look like if policies implemented fully. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I agree. Law enforcement and national security are two of the very few things Government should be responsible for because everyone benefits equally and making a profit should never be the motivation. The people who think that the government should provide more never actually explain where the government will get the money from to do it. Government doesn’t create any wealth they only take it from other people.

Nobody can say it better than Ron Paul:

 
Paul is full of ****, but the people who listen to him are used to talk like that, anyway.

I say that because the days are gone when, by disagreeing with him and his ilk, I would, if an American, have been called a communist and fired.

This is a nation that has got itself into trillions of dollars of debt and, actually, had foreign countries falling over themselves to lend and hold dollars and you are, still, willing to listen to that bull****? The greatest power the world has ever known cannot give its its people a decent medical service?

Paul is telling those that will listen to him what they want to hear. The sad fact is that private medical insurance attracts young families, gradually raising its subscriptions---always blaming the coast of medicine--- until the elderly cannot , or do not want to, pay the cost, precisely when they are most likely to need it. Which means that the insurance company rubs its hands in glee.

We have to afford NHS care. Cut out benefits but medical care for citizens that pay all their lives canot be eliminated. Also, if we have emigrants that are not covered by their security payments, then the taxpayer should subsidise them. There are plenty of other things that can be cut but healthy taxpayers can consider themselves very lucky.

I am not a socialist, just a middle-of-he-road taxpayer who sees, around him, things that are not right.
 
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One source of income---raise petrol tax except for commercial vehicles. Of course, the motor industry will scream but, looking at the video, the road user could afford it, couldn't he?

 
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