CavaliereVerde
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,757
- Likes
- 2,683
Last edited:
a couple of Klitscho's
I agree that this was possibly the desired result pre-invasion but things have changed so much in the last week or so that this must have at least some effect on his expectations. As you pointed out, he has just managed to bring about the very situation that he wanted to avoid....so now what? Granted that the EU is going to suffer high energy prices in the short term but again, Putin has provoked it into ditching current energy policy that relied on Russia to a great extent to one where there may well be no demand for their oil and gas within a very few years. If the scramble to switch to renewables and grid-scale battery storage accelerates then that, along with reduced Ukrainian demand could be that being short oil might be a thing in the near future. This may shunt Russia closer to China and I can see the Chinese bailing out their failing economy - but, there will be a substantial quid pro quo and Russia might end up being on a leash and very much a junior. Meanwhile, we'll be grateful to Putin for helping the West toward energy autonomy, reduced pollution and quite possibly, a Russian society that wants to make a break with the cold war dinosaurs.Putin has justified his action in Ukraine by the possibility of NATO membership leading to NATO tanks being parked along Russia's border. If he somehow takes the whole of Ukraine that is exactly what he ends up with - he will have moved his own border right up against NATO's and lost the buffer state between NATO tanks and Russia that he has told his allies he wanted.
More likely he will wish to see Ukraine split in two, rather like East and West Germany post-1945. Then he keeps NATO tanks away from Russia, plus he has a puppet government in East Ukraine. He may not need to take the capital to do this. It might be worth more for him to leave Kyiv in Ukrainian hands, especially as Ukrainian resistance in the city is likely to be the toughest conceivable. Its even possible to see Kyiv as the new Berlin, an island occupied by Ukraine but isolated within East Ukraine.
This end-game might also explain why Russian armed forces have made such tentative advances.
Weeell, yes, of course, any sane person would go for option three. Actually getting Russia to make agreements on which it does not renege has long been problematic and imo Putin only understands the Big Stick and mistook the wimpy western velvet glove as license to do anything he wanted. I agree completely that national interests persist longer than friendship/enmity but I think that both the West and Putin have got the wrong end of the stick - if the West really wanted to eff Russia decisively, the time to do that was 20 years ago when they were on their knees. The fact that there have been no western military invasions during that period should give credence to the line that NATO is defensive.The conflict is going to be resolved in one of three ways . . .
1, Annihilation of Ukraine.
2. Annihilation of the world.
3. At the negotiating table.
Assuming that no one is in favour of the first two options (including Putin), then option three must prevail. This invites the obvious question: how does one get the great big grizzly Russian bear to the negotiating table? Well, however one goes about it, the one thing one absolutely should not do is to take it's honey pot and poke it with a bloody great big stick. That's the height of stupidity and the consequences of which are pretty much inevitable: the bear will take one almighty dump ....
I disagree, I think they will concede only Crimea, everything more would be a victory for Putin and would create a precedent that western coutries can't protect a democracy from an aggression.Both sides are now playing for the division of Ukraine. Zelenskyy and his fighters are fighting for West Ukraine, not Ukraine.
Conceding Crimea is just a formality, on the ground its already "independent" and Russian-controlled, so Putin would find it damaging to have to argue to his allies that the Ukrainian invasion was necessary to secure recognition of Crimea.I disagree, I think they will concede only Crimea, everything more would be a victory for Putin and would create a precedent that western coutries can't protect a democracy from an aggression.
There was no comeback fo Nazis after WW2.Whatever outcome is reached in Ukraine, it has to stand on its own feet and the three sides must think they each got something. Otherwise we'll be back here again in 5 years.
Nothing will be the same after this war, EU , NATO and UN will be different.The west is not the military protector of all democracies. Whether the west can or can't protect a neutral democracy outside its alliances is irrelevant.
...eh? The top guys were executed or imprisoned and the country was occupied. ...and of course, the wilier amongst them changed their identities and fled to warmer climes but still, living out your days in some South American village whilst looking over your shoulder for Mossad is not "no comeback" in my book.There was no comeback fo Nazis after WW2.
Also the difference is with this war the impression is that the Russian people don't want this while Hitler had brainwashed Germany. Putin has left his position completely untenable regardless of the outcome of this war now....eh? The top guys were executed or imprisoned and the country was occupied. ...and of course, the wilier amongst them changed their identities and fled to warmer climes but still, living out your days in some South American village whilst looking over your shoulder for Mossad is not "no comeback" in my book.
You may well be right that many Russians never wanted the war in the first place but equally, an awful lot did. What seems to be unbelievable through western eyes can make perfect sense if you've been fed a steady stream of single message propaganda. Russian scepticism has to drastically increase, so much so that the anti-war folk are able to have any influence on the Kremlin. As it is, I see fat chance of that happening before the Ukrainians have been bludgeoned into submission which means that it will either be due to the scenario I mentioned earlier where Russia loses its best energy customers (2 to 3 years at an absolute minimum imo) or that the Ukrainian occupation degenerates into an asymptomatic war along the lines of Afghanistan, which of course would probably mean the deliberate destruction of any useful infrastructure and mass murder. Large numbers of coffins coming back home to Russia might sway things in the shorter term but it hasn't bothered Putin in the past so one has to hope that the cracks show around him rather than hoping that he's going to turn over a new leaf.Also the difference is with this war the impression is that the Russian people don't want this while Hitler had brainwashed Germany. Putin has left his position completely untenable regardless of the outcome of this war now.