Ukraine invasion

Corrupt or not, Russia's military appears to be working extremely well. As those of us on the right side of the argument have been saying for months now, the situation for Ukraine will only go from bad to worse to totally unbearable.
The alternative reality you are buying from Brian.
Russia is taking on not just Ukraine, but the entire collective might of the U.S. and Europe (bar boots on the ground). Given that, they're doing waaaaaaay better than anyone in their worst nightmare imagined they would. The west knows they can't win this conflict without direct NATO intervention - which is why they'll throw Zelensky under a bus when they're finished with him. It's inevitable.
You keep repeating this story but facts and maps tell another one.
We have a huge chunk of land liberated in September and another huge one liberated in November,
In the meantime we need a magnifying glass to see the progress of Russians (Wagner) around Bakhmut.
Ukraine just need to keep doing the same we have seen in the last six months.

Of course Zaluzhny is pressing for more weapons and training to accelerate the victory.
 
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The alternative reality you are buying from Brian.
CV,
I'm not 'buying' anything from anyone. I can see with my own eyes whats going on - as can you if you care to look!
You keep repeating this story but facts and maps tell another one.
We have a huge chunk of land liberated in September and another huge one liberated in November,
In the meantime we need a mignifying glass to see the progress of Russians (Wagner) aroung Bakhmut.
Ukraine just need to keep doing the same we have seen in the last six months.
If you measure success, winning, victory - call it what you will - purely in terms of square metres gained or lost, then you have a fair point. This is the propaganda the west want you to believe. (Sadly, as you demonstrate, it's working.) However, if you apply some logical critical thinking to the situation, you'll arrive at the inevitable conclusion that square metres won or lost is but one piece of the jigsaw puzzle which, on its own and without context, is largely meaningless.
Of course Zaluzhny is pressing for more weapons and training to accelerate the victory.
You need to watch / listen to the Duran video to understand what Zaluzhny is really saying. The west can't give him what he needs and so, in effect, he's admitting that Ukraine and the U.S. can't win the war. As I've said repeatedly, the only way they can win is by direct NATO intervention and by the west going 'all in'. And that's just not going to happen. Ergo, I'm afraid it's game over for Ukraine.
Tim.
 
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Linked below is a really interesting interview by Judge Napolitano on his 'Judging Freedom' channel with Scott Ritter, in which they too discuss the Economist interview with General Zaluzhny. Now, I know that some of you on here prefer to focus on Ritter's sex offences rather than his brilliant insights into the Ukraine war, but I urge you not to shoot the messenger and to listen very carefully to the message. Ritter says much the same as egghead Brian and The Duran do, but goes a step further to provide a convincing argument suggesting that Zelensky (who the Russians loathe) will be replaced by Zaluzhny (who the Russians respect).

Given that the general has clearly signposted the war can't be won unless he's provided with kit that he won't be given, then a negotiated peace settlement is the only solution, which could come about sooner rather than later. Why? For the very reasons that those of us on the right side of the argument on this thread have been saying for many months. Namely, if Ukraine can't win the war, then the longer it goes on the worse the outcome will be. One outcome that would be absolutely disastrous for them would be if they lost Odessa, because it would result in them becoming a land locked country. So, Ritter's argument is that Zelensky fecks off to Necker Island, or his Miami beach front mansion, or wherever, along with his hundreds of millions USD$, and Zaluzhny takes the reigns and negotiates a peace deal with Putin / Russia while there's (just about) something left to negotiate. Well worth watching . . .

 
Now, I know that some of you on here prefer to focus on Ritter's sex offences rather than his brilliant insights into the Ukraine war, but I urge you not to shoot the messenger and to listen very carefully to the message.
Remember, it was Scott Ritter who, after the first few hours of the war, said, "We've already had reports of, you know, Russian troops taking the city of Mariuopol. ... In less than an hour, the city fell."

So, Scott Ritter's "brilliant insights" are that he knows how to lie.
 
Remember, it was Scott Ritter who, after the first few hours of the war, said, "We've already had reports of, you know, Russian troops taking the city of Mariuopol. ... In less than an hour, the city fell."

So, Scott Ritter's "brilliant insights" are that he knows how to lie.
Oh dear R_L, even when I expressly ask that you comment on the message and don't shoot the mesenger - you still can't do it. There can only be one reason why: Ritter makes salient observations based on sound reason and logic to which you have no answer.
:rolleyes:
 
on the message and don't shoot the mesenger
But IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MESSANGER !
We are not there so we have to rely on the credibility of the "experts" we follow.
I think it is better to avoid who failed to predict and understand what was going on.
 
But IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MESSANGER !
We are not there so we have to rely on the credibility of the "experts" we follow.
I think it is better to avoid who failed to predict and understand what was going on.
Oh for goodness sake CV - get real! It's only about the messenger when you don't like the message. Just pretend it's not Russel Brand, Brian Berletic or, as in this case, Scott Ritter who's making the comments and imagine they're voiced by someone you like. Focus on what's being said - not on the wo/man saying it! Jeez - it's really not difficult.

I'll make it super simple for you, imagine I made the observation instead of Ritter (indeed I did a precis of what he said beneath the video), so comment on that if you can't bare to watch / listen to Ritter. The only reason you don't do that is because Ritter's analysis is logical, makes perfect sense and you have no credible counter argument. The more you continue to shoot the messenger and put your fingers in your ears and ignore the message - the sillier you look. If you can't comment on the message, my advice to you and R_L is not to post at all.
Tim.
 


 
Don't be so sure.
Based on our research, we rate FALSE the claim that Zelenskyy sold 17 million hectares of farmland to U.S. corporations. It is illegal for foreign companies to own land in Ukraine, according to experts. While Cargill, Dupont and Monsanto do have business interests in Ukraine, and Cargill has a 5% share in a land-holding company, none own land directly.

But then this happened.
Russian Oligarch Seizes 400,000 Acres of Ukrainian Farmland, Owners Say
The family company of a Putin ally and former Russian agriculture minister has become one of the biggest farm operators in Ukraine
Dec. 6, 2022 10:02 am ET

Soon after Russian tanks rolled into eastern Ukraine, three of that country’s biggest farming operators lost tracts of land equivalent to more than twice the area of New York City.

It wasn’t taken by the military. In all three cases, leaders of the Ukrainian farming operations say, the land ended up in the hands of the family company of a former Russian agriculture minister, Alexander Tkachev.

The Ukrainian firms say that his company, Agrocomplex, seized the rights to some 400,000 acres, becoming one of largest farm operators in Ukraine. Ukraine’s military and civilian intelligence agencies and its public prosecutors’ office are investigating the alleged expropriation, according to documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

In the area of eastern Ukraine that Russia’s military occupies, Russia has moved to consolidate control, pushing its currency and school curriculum onto the local populace. At the same time, politically connected Russian oligarchs and companies have quietly moved into the newly occupied territories to make money.

“Russia is taking over the economy in occupied territories and using that control to help control the whole area,” said Dmitry Skorniakov, chief executive of Ukrainian agricultural company HarvEast Holding.

HarvEast land became the focus of a feud in May between armed groups, including one from the Russia-backed local administration and one from Agrocomplex, Mr. Skorniakov said farmworkers told him. They described shots being fired in the air.

In the end, the workers told Mr. Skorniakov, HarvEast’s land was split into three tranches, with 100,000 owned or rented acres in Donetsk province handed over to Agrocomplex.

Another Ukraine farming company, Nibulon Ltd., has lost 50,000 acres to land seizures, according to its chief executive, Andriy Vadaturskyy. He said he believes that Agrocomplex now farms this land.

A third Ukrainian company, Agroton Public Ltd., accused Agrocomplex of taking 250,000 acres.


Alexander Tkachev, a former Russian agriculture minister, heads a family company that Ukrainian grain growers say has taken control of hundreds of thousands of acres of their land.

PHOTO: DMITRY AZAROV/KOMMERSANT/SIPA/ASSOCIATED PRESS

Agrocomplex didn’t return repeated emails and calls seeking comment. Mr. Tkachev couldn’t be reached.

Land seizures threaten to put a large portion of one of the world’s biggest grain harvests under Russian control. The moves stand to increase Moscow’s global economic leverage, particularly in developing nations that have long relied on Ukrainian and Russian grain production for food.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in a telephone press conference in October that assets in regions where Russia has taken control could be transferred to Russian jurisdiction. The Kremlin press service said in an emailed response to questions that eastern Ukrainian regions now are part of Russia. Farm owners can claim their rights according to the laws of Russia, it said.

The taking of farmland—as described by Ukrainian intelligence, executives at agriculture companies and workers who said they witnessed it—began soon after Moscow established local civil administrations in occupied parts of eastern Ukraine and has unfolded in a consistent, systematic way.

First to lose their land were owners who served in Ukraine’s military or civil service and owners who lived outside of the region.

The initial step was a visit from officials connected to the Donetsk People’s Republic or the Luhansk People’s Republic—proxy statelets established when a Russia-backed separatist movement took control of some areas of Ukraine in 2014. Starting around March, invading Russian forces expanded those proxy statelets, which Moscow has since declared to be part of Russia.

Donetsk and Luhansk officials, sometimes in groups carrying guns, would visit local farms with a message: They were in charge now.

In some cases, farmers were threatened if they didn’t continue working. Representatives of the occupation government coerced Ukrainian landowners, sometimes at gunpoint, to rewrite contracts, including ownership deeds, to conform with Russian, not Ukrainian, law, said those familiar with the process.


Harvesting grain on land that a Ukrainian farm operator says has been lost to a Russian company.

PHOTO: HARVEAST HOLDING


Grain storage at the Mariupol seaport in eastern Ukraine

PHOTO: ASSOCIATED PRESS

In certain instances, landowners were allowed to keep their farms, but new contracts stipulated that 70% of the harvest would go to Russia or to Donetsk People’s Republic or Luhansk People’s Republic authorities.

On other farms, land was re-registered, sometimes bundled with other operations nearby.

The Ukrainian companies and farmers that had land and farm equipment taken haven’t been compensated, they say.

A representative for the Donetsk People’s Republic couldn’t be reached for comment. An official of the Luhansk People’s Republic said by email that there had been no land expropriation.

A big chunk of the land at issue now is being farmed by Agrocomplex, according to Ukrainian intelligence and Ukrainian farm owners. The company has been involved in ensuring Russia’s “control over agricultural production,” Ukrainian military intelligence said in a document reviewed by the Journal.

Agrocomplex’s corporate documents list Mr. Tkachev as a director and chairman of the annual shareholders’ meeting. He is described as chairman of the board and the company’s beneficial owner in accounts filed with SPARK-Interfax, a Russian corporate data company.

A member of Russia’s business and political elite, Mr. Tkachev has frequently been photographed with Russian President Vladimir Putin, particularly when Russia prepared to host the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, in a region Mr. Tkachev then governed.


Russian President Vladimir Putin, center, was accompanied by Alexander Tkachev, right, on a ski-resort visit near Sochi in January 2013. Mr. Tkachev was then the region’s governor.

PHOTO: PRESIDENTIAL PRESS SERVICE/ASSOCIATED PRESS

After serving as governor of Russia’s Krasnodar province, Mr. Tkachev was Russia’s minister of agriculture from 2015 to 2018. In Moscow, his wealth was notable even among the political elite, said Alexandra Pokopenko, a former adviser to the Bank of Russia.

Through Agrocomplex, Mr. Tkachev owns a large, turreted holiday villa and outbuildings on the Black Sea coast, according to local activists who protested its construction inside a conservation area. It is in a region that houses the dachas of several leading members of the Russian establishment. In Georgia, according to the local press there, Mr. Tkachev owns the onetime holiday home of Lavrentiy Beria, who ran Stalin’s secret police.

Mr. Tkachev’s wife founded a large vineyard in Krasnodar province, complete with a giant mock French château, according to SPARK-Interfax. In a video on the vineyard’s website, Mr. Tkachev is seen toasting guests who include Moscow celebrities at an event in which female dancers rub grapes over themselves.

The European Union, U.K. and Australia sanctioned Mr. Tkachev in 2014 for what they said was his support of the Russian annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region. The U.S. hasn’t sanctioned him.

While he was in government and head of Agrocomplex, Mr. Tkachev’s family company became a field-to-shelf food giant producing and processing grain, livestock and dairy products for sale in Russia and parts of Europe where it is sanctioned. It tripled its land holdings over the period. Agrocomplex now controls more than two million acres of farmland in Russia, said BEFL, a Russian corporate advisory. That is in addition to the land it is alleged to have stolen in Ukraine.

Its holdings in Russia, equal to almost twice the size of the U.S. state of Delaware, make Agrocomplex that country’s third-largest farmland owner. It reported revenue equivalent to about $1.16 billion last year. Its full name is “JSC Agrocomplex Named After N.I. Tkachev,” a reference to its founder, Alexander Tkachev’s father.

Agrocomplex has followed in the wake of Russian soldiers before. After Russia annexed Crimea, an Agrocomplex affiliate bought a Crimean agricultural enterprise once owned by a Ukrainian business rival. Mr. Putin has praised Agrocomplex’s work in Crimea, singling out one of its investments at a forum in St. Petersburg last year.

Ukrainian businessman Yuriy Zhuravlev, chief executive and majority shareholder of the publicly held farming company Agroton, said that in May, he took a call from a man who identified himself as the agriculture minister of the Luhansk People’s Republic. It had laid claim to civil administration in Luhansk, and the caller told Mr. Zhuravlev that Agroton wasn’t registered there.

Mr. Zhuravlev said the caller told him that 250,000 acres Agroton owned or rented in Luhansk now belonged to Agrocomplex. About 350,000 metric tons of wheat and sunflower seeds, including both stored and crops in the ground, were also taken, Mr. Zhuravlev said.

"They wanted to rob the enterprise,” he said.


Harvesting wheat on Agrocomplex fields in Russia.

PHOTO: VITALIY TIMKIV/SPUTNIK/ASSOCIATED PRESS

A few days later came more bad news. Mr. Zhuravlev said he obtained a document showing that a man named Alexei Melniko v had registered himself and a new company, Luhansk Agro-Industrial Company LLC, as operator of the farmland.

Mr. Melnikov was an official in Russia’s Krasnodar province when Mr. Tkachev governed it, according to press reports at the time. On May 17, Mr. Melnikov registered himself and the new company as a taxpayer in Luhansk, a tax registration document shows.

Two days later, Mr. Melnikov sat down for a meeting with the general director of Agrocomplex and the Luhansk People’s Republic’s agriculture minister, according to Ukraine’s domestic intelligence service, known as the SBU. The agency described the meeting in a Nov. 3 letter to Mr. Melnikov informing him he was under investigation for alleged war crimes and participation in organized crime.

A few days after the meeting, a Luhansk People’s Republic official asked Russia’s deputy prime minister for a permit for Agrocomplex to work in Luhansk, the SBU said. Mr. Melnikov couldn’t be reached for comment. He said in a TV interview in July that he was buying wheat from local farmland that had been abandoned.

Back at Agroton, four officials paid a visit as part of a group with guns that threatened to kill managers who refused to work with them, Mr. Zhuravlev said he was told by farmworkers.

He said the party included Valery Pakhnyts, a Luhansk People’s Republic official. The U.S. government sanctioned Mr. Pakhnyts in September, alleging that he oversaw the theft of Ukrainian grain.


Mr. Putin met in 2018 with then-Agriculture Minister Alexander Tkachev, who leads the farming company Agrocomplex.

PHOTO: MICHAEL KLIMENTYEV/SPUTNIK/KREML/EPA/SHUTTERSTOCK

Mr. Pakhnyts said by email there was no land expropriation. He said that operating on farmland is secured by registration with the state, which any legal entity can do. He said Russian companies weren’t involved.

“The information that some groups moved around and inspected farmlands does not correspond to reality,” Mr. Pakhnyts said.

According to Mr. Zhuravlev, the farm visitors also included a Crimean official named Pavlo Kharlamov. Mr. Kharlamov said in an interview that he had an indirect role in uniting agricultural assets on behalf of the Luhansk People’s Republic.

Differing with Mr. Pakhnyts, he said that Russian companies were involved in the process. He said that farmland wasn’t being expropriated because it already belonged to the people of Luhansk. He denied that weapons were involved.

In July, a fleet of combine harvesters bearing the Agrocomplex logo showed up on Agroton’s land and began harvesting the wheat crop Agroton had planted, farmworkers told Mr. Zhuravlev.

The following month, employees of Agroton and Nibulon, along with landowners from whom the Ukrainian firms rented land, were invited to a presentation in the city of Bilovodsk in Luhansk. In a hall called the House of Culture, an executive who said she worked with Agrocomplex made the case for cooperating with the Russian company, according to a recording of the meeting.

Agroton and Nibulon had “abandoned their enterprises and their people,“ the executive told the group. She said Agrocomplex had paid 4 billion rubles, equivalent to about $65 million, for the businesses’ assets, including buildings and the harvest. “Nothing was given for free,” she said.

Agroton and Nibulon say they didn’t receive compensation. On Aug. 8, Agroton issued a statement saying that Agrocomplex has “seized all assets” in the Luhansk region.
 
R_L,
Yet again, you're labouring under a whole host of misconceptions. Allow me to put you straight . . .


Why?
You - and the collective west think Russia should work according to your time frame. When they don't, you equate that with them losing the war. This is western propaganda pure and simple. If you fall for it, then I'm afraid you're engaging in what Jordan Peterson describes as 'low resolution thinking'.

Why?
While Zelensky is seen by the west as the reincarnation of Mother Theresa, killing him would play into the hands of western politicians and MSN. c_v thinks Putin's a pariah now, just imagine what he'd think if Zelensky was assassinated!!! That said, in the fullness of time, Zelensky will be replaced - his days are numbered.

In time - this will happen.
The U.S. put in their puppet in 2014 - and I dare say that once Zelensky and his regime are evicted that the Russians will replace him with someone favourable to them. That's just common sense. There's no point going to all this trouble just to replace Zelensky with another U.S. puppet is there!

Well, it won't be expanding any further - that's for sure. Putin / Russia will see to that!

Why?
Again, you and the west think you know better than Russia how to conduct the war. When they don't do as you think they should - you regard that as failure on their part. More low resolution thinking.

Why?
If the tanks serve their purpose and are still in good working order - why not use them? And if they're not fit for purpose, they would have been decommissioned. Obvious, innit!

Why?
If another country makes a weapon that you can use to good effect - why not use it? (And Russia has used them to devastating effect.) If you apply your logic to Ukraine, they wouldn't be using the bulk of the weapons they're using.

Why?
MSM spin. Sure, he's changed the head man and, doubtless a few others. So what? It's reasonable to ensure one has the best wo/men in place at the top to get the job done. By your flawed logic, no successful business would ever replace their senior executives.

The risk to me is zero. Literally zero. Ukraine will not be getting back the territory the Russians control - so I can not lose the bet. Whereas, the probability of me winning it is extremely high - I'm already 9/10ths of the way there!
;)
Tim.
Remember, you wrote "Russia's military appears to be working extremely well."

To me, a military that works extremely well should be able to quickly and decisively defeat a clearly inferior enemy. They would have installed a friendly government of the defeated enemy. They wouldn't be doing things like
russians_stealing_washing_machine.gif


And their "head" of state,
1671381266138.png
, would be handing out medals, not discharging his command staff and defense rector before the climax of the engagement, unless they weren't performing to satisfaction.:D
 
Don't be so sure.


But then this happened.
That's typical BS by such "fact" checkers.
Maybe they don't know that Cyprus does not belong to Ukraine until now.

Agroton - one of the companies named in your articles - is based in Cyprus and owned mainly (84.5%) by one person.
See page 9

Want to know more about making business in Ukraine? :)
 
That's typical BS by such "fact" checkers.
Maybe they don't know that Cyprus does not belong to Ukraine until now.

Agroton - one of the companies named in your articles - is based in Cyprus and owned mainly (84.5%) by one person.
See page 9

Want to know more about making business in Ukraine? :)
That's good to know, but my reply was about
1671415923022.png

Now I know one can't spell "Cyprus" without "us," but Cyprus is not part of the U.S. And Agroton is based in Cyprus, not the U.S. The fact check refuted the claim that Zelensky sold land to U.S.-based companies.

Also, Agroton's headquarters might be in Cyprus (maybe for accounting purposes), but they seem to operate almost exclusively in Ukraine.
1671417097016.png


So I assume you, like many Ukrainians, are upset about Russians stealing farmland in Ukraine.;)
 
. . .To me, a military that works extremely well should be able to quickly and decisively defeat a clearly inferior enemy. They would have installed a friendly government of the defeated enemy. They wouldn't be doing things like. . .
R_L,
Well, if you're an expert on timescale and how to conduct the war, then I suggest you drop a line to Putin and his generals so they may benefit from your great insights and wisdom. However, I suspect they're more interested in what General Zaluzhny said in his interview with The Economist, in which he as good as admitted defeat unless he gets the scale of help and support from NATO that they're simply not going to provide. That tells Russia's General Surovikin that his forces are doing just fine and simply have to keep doing more of the same to win the war. Fear not R_L, as once they're done, I'm sure he'll post an apology to you on this thread for not achieving victory in the timescale and manner that you think is appropriate. So, apart from the trivial matter of the war, all is not lost!
:ROFLMAO:
Tim.
 
That's good to know, but my reply was about
View attachment 324267
Now I know one can't spell "Cyprus" without "us," but Cyprus is not part of the U.S. And Agroton is based in Cyprus, not the U.S. The fact check refuted the claim that Zelensky sold land to U.S.-based companies.

Also, Agroton's headquarters might be in Cyprus (maybe for accounting purposes), but they seem to operate almost exclusively in Ukraine.
View attachment 324269

So I assume you, like many Ukrainians, are upset about Russians stealing farmland in Ukraine.;)
My post was about the quoted BS that "it's illegal for foreign entities to own land in Ukraine". It's common knowledge that it is not illegal. Foreign owners are in US, UK, Russia and more countries.

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/blog/who-owns-agricultural-land-ukraine (2015)



In 2021 Zelensky was forced by the IMF to "Law 552-IX".

Sorry, but my compassion is limited when oligarchs lose land to other oligarchs as I know too many bad stories how they got it after the breakdown of the USSR.
 

"Forbes has published an article attempting to dismiss concerns over extremism among the ranks of Ukraine’s armed forces as Russian propaganda, but admits that it had been a problem that Ukraine has since “fixed.”

Unfortunately, a screenshot included in the article is from a video that proves exactly the opposite - that extremism in Ukraine’s armed forces is worse than ever and openly benefiting from Western weapons and equipment flooding the country."
 

"Forbes has published an article attempting to dismiss concerns over extremism among the ranks of Ukraine’s armed forces as Russian propaganda, but admits that it had been a problem that Ukraine has since “fixed.”

Unfortunately, a screenshot included in the article is from a video that proves exactly the opposite - that extremism in Ukraine’s armed forces is worse than ever and openly benefiting from Western weapons and equipment flooding the country."
Why doesn't Brian report on Nazis from the east?
 
The point is that nazis are everywhere, like rapists or other criminals.
It was just an excuse to invade and expand Russia, that is just the biggest country in the world... 🤷‍♂️
 
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