timsk
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Absolutely brilliant post At' - right up to the very end when you went and spoilt it! It should read:
4. Stay out of EU.
Ukraine invasion
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4. Stay out of EU.
Atilla
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Absolutely brilliant post At' - right up to the very end when you went and spoilt it! It should read:
4. Stay out of EU.
EU has managed to maintain peace and prevent European wars. You should not underestimate this value.
Heseltine spelt it out really well in the Remain manifesto.
Look at Boris sending the British Navy to flex muscle against French fishing ships. Can you believe UK having fisty cuff with the French. Prickly neighbours n all that. Neighbourly disputes are the worst as we can all see.
AriaS
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I am really surprised to hear some pro-rashist voices in this thread. It's really saddening me as a person who comes from Ukraine and closely follows what is happening there over the years.
But I would like to exclude my personal interest and be as objective as possible. So I'll just look at the world and decide who I stand with. Well, what do we have? At the UN general Assembly 141 countries voted against russia. 5 countries voted for russia. Among those 141 are all the countries that I've lived in and visited. Anything that I've ever consumed was created in those countries - starting with material things and ending with culture, art, music, literature etc. How about the 5 countries who voted for russia? They are russia, north korea, belarus, syria and eritrea. So who will I stand with? Whom will I support? Hmm... such a tough choice!
But I would like to exclude my personal interest and be as objective as possible. So I'll just look at the world and decide who I stand with. Well, what do we have? At the UN general Assembly 141 countries voted against russia. 5 countries voted for russia. Among those 141 are all the countries that I've lived in and visited. Anything that I've ever consumed was created in those countries - starting with material things and ending with culture, art, music, literature etc. How about the 5 countries who voted for russia? They are russia, north korea, belarus, syria and eritrea. So who will I stand with? Whom will I support? Hmm... such a tough choice!
timsk
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At',
Let's not take the thread off-topic by talking about EU and Brexit. But, very quickly, I live a stone's throw from Brixham, and hear what's going on in the fishing industry. Fisty-cuffs will almost certainly resume when the current transition period runs out in a few years time and the French fishing fleet aren't allowed to fish U.K. waters. I love France, and all the French people I've ever met on regular (pre-covid) holidays there have been friendly and welcoming. Great country. However, their fishing fleets must stay out of our waters and I hope (and expect) our navy to enforce that.
Tim.
timsk
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Welcome to T2W and the thread D'AYC,
I suspect you're misinterpreting or misunderstanding those of us who don't endorse the 'Zelensky & Ukraine good - Putin & Russia bad' mantra. None of us - that I'm aware of anyway - are 'pro-fascist'. It's not my place to speak for others, obviously, but I think most members on my side of the argument would claim - like me - to be vehemently anti-fascist and maintain that there are no good guys and bad guys in this conflict - they'll all bad guys. If you read the article linked in new_trader's post - you'll find the evidence to support this view.
Tim.
AriaS
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I see. So I will support the 141 bad guys who I can freely visit and communicate with without fear
Let alone that 24/7 I use everything that they create. This all actually keeps me alive and well. As for the other 5 bad guys, I don't think I like them at all.
IlIlIlIlI
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Welcome to T2W.I see. So I will support the 141 bad guys who I can freely visit and communicate with without fear
I'm sure these figures would be very different if the voting would be repeated today.
I'm also sure you had good reasons to leave Ukraine as more than 10 millions of Ukrainians did since the 90th.
None of pro-war advocates have a solutions for the Donbas region, where the war started in 2014 which escalated in the invasion.
It's very easy to pick up an event after the Russian invasion and start finger pointing to Russia and Putin by ignoring the cause of the invasion.
Do you know the Ukrainian solution for the Donbas region to end the civil war there if it would hypothetically return to Ukraine?
Multiply the 14,000 deaths there since 2014?
Or at least start paying the salaries and pensions to the people there which are not paid by Ukraine since 2014?
Etc.
timsk
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When Washington's house rag starts publishing articles like the one linked below - it's a clear sign that the Biden administration want to distance themselves from Zelensky's regime. They know the game is up, that the war is effectively lost and that the best they can do is to cynically keep it going for a long as possible in order to extract maximum political and financial profit. All the while, the people who will suffer the most will be ordinary Ukrainians. The solution is obvious: a peace settlement along the lines Atilla outlined in his post, minus joining the EU!
Zelensky faces outpouring of criticism over failure to warn of war
AriaS
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I am sorry I got involved in this conversation. I'll just keep donating to Ukraine and its armed forces and will watch how they destroy the rashist army in Crimea and elsewhere. Freedom and democracy will win for one simple reason - free people are always stronger and more effective than slaves.
IlIlIlIlI
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You can also add the Zelensky regime and his Nazi batallions to this description.
Your Link is off topic in his conclusion - I know the original UN report.
I recommend "Ukranian Agony" to watch - Ukrainians didn't shoot Ukrainians. I had posted this footage also earlier in this thread.
Ukrainian Agony - The Concealed War (2015)
Since mid-July 2014, our war correspondent team is still on site in the southeast of Ukraine – in the Donbass. We shot countless videos and scored over a thousand photos. The team of “Keep a close eye...
odysee.com
Ukrainians don't shoot Ukrainians, but Nazis do. Give enough Nazis enough weapons and a subhuman group - for Hitler it was the Jews, for the Ukarinian Nazis there are the Ukrainians with Russian roots and the Russians.
.. is dead in Ukraine since the opposition is eliminated.
But - hypothetidcally - it can be rebuilt when the war is over and the regime has stepped down.
I hope they will find better candidates for the president than a comedian, a boxer and a rock musician, candidates with a political vision. Unfortunately, Zelensky was unable to implement any of the things he had promised before the election.
AriaS
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Sorry, I strongly disagree with anything you're saying. I trust western democracies, I trust people I happily live among. I don't trust russia, china, north korea etc.You can also add the Zelensky regime and his Nazi batallions to this description.
Your Link is off topic in his conclusion - I know the original UN report.
I recommend "Ukranian Agony" to watch - Ukrainians didn't shoot Ukrainians. I had posted this footage also earlier in this thread.
Ukrainian Agony - The Concealed War (2015)
Since mid-July 2014, our war correspondent team is still on site in the southeast of Ukraine – in the Donbass. We shot countless videos and scored over a thousand photos. The team of “Keep a close eye...
Ukrainians don't shoot Ukrainians, but Nazis do. Give enough Nazis enough weapons and a subhuman group - for Hitler it was the Jews, for the Ukarinian Nazis there are the Ukrainians with Russian roots and the Russians.
.. is dead in Ukraine since the opposition is eliminated.
But - hypothetidcally - it can be rebuilt when the war is over and the regime has stepped down.
I hope they will find better candidates for the president than a comedian, a boxer and a rock musician, candidates with a political vision. Unfortunately, Zelensky was unable to implement any of the things he had promised before the election.
timsk
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Why? Is it because . . .
1. You're not able to debate a topic with people who have beliefs that differ to yours?
2. You want the bloodshed and destruction to continue and the last thing to happen is for a peace settlement to be negotiated?
3. Your eyes have been opened to the reality of the situation and you're forced to accept the uncomfortable truth that Zelensky's regime isn't quite as squeaky clean and as perfect as he and mainstream media would have us all believe?
Well, Ukraine needs to crowdfund the war effort as it's clear that the arms and money supply from the west won't - and can't - continue indefinitely. I hope your pockets are very, very deep though, as the rockets for the 'game changer' HIMARS cost circa $100,000 each.
Be careful what you wish for is my advice. Ukrainians are less free now than they were before the war. Not because of Putin and Russia, but because they're totally 100% enslaved to the U.S. In effect, Ukraine has become the 51st U.S. state. Zelensky doesn't care as he's well on his way to becoming a billionaire. When the time comes, he'll just get on a plane to Nekker island - or wherever. Ordinary Ukrainians will be left with decimated families, destroyed infrastructure and impoverished by a debt they'll be paying off for the rest of their lives to the very people responsible for their misery. That might be your idea of freedom and democracy - but it's certainly not mine.
Tim.
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new_trader
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Based on your metric, Russia will win because it is freer and therefore stronger than Ukraine. This is obvious on the battlefield as well.
Index of Economic Freedom: Ukraine | The Heritage Foundation
Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage
www.heritage.org
Index of Economic Freedom: Russia | The Heritage Foundation
Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage
www.heritage.org
Atilla
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I used to be like you when younger and growing up.
Then I grew up, travelled and met a lot of people, read a lot of stuff and saw a lot of things which made me question and change my point of view.
I don't trust Western democracies or what the Main Stream Media says anymore. It is more than distrust. I have seen their lies, deceits and attrocities and dual standards with sickening hypocrisy all over the world.
Have an open mind and question what is presented to you. Healthy scepticism is good for you.
IlIlIlIlI
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As US Announces New $800M Ukraine Arms Package, Here's The Total List Since War's Start
Originally published by ZeroHedge In a Thursday CNN interview Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk described a stalemated battlefield situation with Russia,...
southfront.org
UPDATED: Drone Rain Over Crimea: Ukrainian UAVs Fail To Reach Their Targets In Peninsula
On August 20, an UAV hit the roof of the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet in the city of...
southfront.org
new_trader
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This is hilarious and typical of MSM lackeys....one week it is a major Kherson offensive that is going to stick it to the Russians, the next it is Guerrilla warfare/terrorist tactics.
Are the Ukrainians outgunned because Russian precision missiles have systematically blown up every NATO military toy they have been given?
How humiliating it is for you MSM lackeys to now start praising Guerrilla warfare/terrorist tactics. It seems like only yesterday your were posting MSM articles about how weak and incompetent the Russian Military is...
timsk
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1. Russian forces continue incremental advances in the Donbass.
2. Ukraine’s Kherson offensive remains stalled.
3. The US is supplying Ukraine with additional HIMARS ammunition but not additional launchers.
4. The US is also sending smaller caliber (105mm) and thus shorter-range howitzers in small numbers to join dwindling numbers of 155mm M777s sent by the US earlier.
5. The US is sending ScanEagle drones similar to Russia’s Orlan-10, but only 15 of them vs hundreds of Russian drones.
6. Despite several successful sabotage operations in Crimea, Ukraine is unable to hit critical Russian targets in the numbers or on the scale Russia is hitting corresponding targets in Ukraine.
7. The US is sending 40 MRAPs and 50 HMMMVs to replace Ukraine’s destroyed armoured vehicles.
AriaS
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I am 43. Please don't patronize. When people disagree with you, this doesn't mean they know less. This can easily be the other way round. We will meet here in couple years and you will see Ukraine to have won this war. The rashist war criminals will be handed over by russia itself to the ICC✌️I used to be like you when younger and growing up.
Then I grew up, travelled and met a lot of people, read a lot of stuff and saw a lot of things which made me question and change my point of view.
I don't trust Western democracies or what the Main Stream Media says anymore. It is more than distrust. I have seen their lies, deceits and attrocities and dual standards with sickening hypocrisy all over the world.
Have an open mind and question what is presented to you. Healthy scepticism is good for you.
Atilla
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I am not patronizing you at all and I'm sorry you feel that way.
As I have pointed out before on these blogs I grew up in the 70s/80s/90s on American culture, watching the little house on the prairie, the waltons, champion the wonder horse, lassie, 6 million dollar man, absolutely the whole lot. Top Gun and Rambo too. I lapped it all up thinking how fantastic the US, policeman of the free world and capitalism was. I am merely explaining my journey.
It was around the ages of 40+ and especially after 9/11 that I began to really see what the US was about and understood business and money come before blood and gore.
In fact it started in the 90s with Iraq / Iran war where the US supplied weapons to Iran and the UK chemicals to Iraq and gave them satelite intel and consented to Sadam using chemicals on Iranian assaults, leading to 1m deaths between the two sides. Sadam only got into trouble when he used chemicals on the Kurds to which US did not consent to.
Sadam turned on CIA and USA once he learned about Oliver North Iran-Contra affair, supplying weapons to Iran and using money to finance the overthrow of the Sandinistas socialist government in Nicaragua. https://www.britannica.com/event/Iran-Contra-Affair
The thing is neither Oliver North nor Ragan got prosecuted for playing both sides. They both pleaded 5th amendment with Ragan denying all knowledge. In a nutshell, the policeman of the world instead of respecting Iranians overthrow of the Shah (not something I agree with - loathe religious leaders) got Iraq to attack it.
Instead of respecting the elected socialist government of Nicaragua (Never supported them either, as I was more a fascist and very much into free markets and capitalism at the time) US wanted to overthrow it, thinking it would lead to communism spreading throughout Latin America.
So please do some googling if you feel up to it and read about the Iraq/Iran war and 9/11 case for war to invade Iraq which had absolutely nothing to do with the twin-towers.
Spare me the sick-bucket about how the US is so fantastic about guarding our democratic values. On the contrary, US, UK and France are three nations who take the most credit for organising the over-throw of elected governments to plant their puppet self serving non-elected leaders.
I hope you better understand my position. I am now almost 60 and last 20 years have been an eye opener for me.
Ukraine doesn't have much value to the US at all. They really don't care how many Ukrainians die. They are only interested in attacking, harassing and damaging Russia. Ukraine is a stick to beat Russia with.
I'm going to guess you know about the Cuban missile crises. Just ask your self how the US responded to Cuba which is about 1000km off the coast compared to how close Ukraine is to Russia. That is why Ukraine can never be allowed to join NATO.
As I outlined before a wonderful opportunity and peace awaits Ukraine so I am bewildered why on Earth, Zelensky the clown would change the constitution to join NATO and hell-bent on membership, avoid negotiations for peace with Russia?
