UK Politics

[CavaliereVerde]

Railroads has to be public just like roads are public, because of the kind of planning, investment and integration.
It is not a matter of left vs right or competence of govs.

 

[tomorton]

Railroads has to be public just like roads are public, because of the kind of planning, investment and integration.
It is not a matter of left vs right or competence of govs.

Don't you think that's a blinkered approach?

If you're saying that a UK government could run something better than some private company, then without some factual evidence that's just a day-dream.

Let's see an example of the UK government running something really really well. Anything.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

factual evidence that's just a day-dream.

Other countries are factual evidence, not dreams.
National railways work decent, no matter the gov, left right, dumb or smart ... dictators ...

 

[Atilla]

Don't you think that's a blinkered approach?

If you're saying that a UK government could run something better than some private company, then without some factual evidence that's just a day-dream.

Let's see an example of the UK government running something really really well. Anything.

If government employees were rewarded half as much as private one yes for sure.

About balance and reason.

The whole system is pretentious and cultivated to fail with lots of false concepts.

Railroads has to be public just like roads are public, because of the kind of planning, investment and integration.
It is not a matter of left vs right or competence of govs.

This CV's post nails it. If you don't have a unified overall planning control at the top efficiency in the joined-up design can not be achieved. Natural monopoly. Tinkering with privatisation bollox is just that, inefficiency bollox to maximise profits.

 

[tomorton]

Other countries are factual evidence, not dreams.
National railways work decent, no matter the gov, left right, dumb or smart ... dictators ...

But we don't live in other countries, we live here in the UK, and whatever the Swiss government decides for its railways has no impact here.

So you reckon that when the UK government ran the railways through British Rail everything worked well?

Leaving aside the possibilities that this is just rosy-tinted nostalgia or ideologically driven bias, what qualifications does the UK government have to run anything?

What does the UK government run really really well?

Here's a few starters -

• border control
• the Income Tax system
• education
• social care
• the NHS
• the Passport Office
• the DVLA

Which of these would be the preferred model for the next nationalised industry?

 

[Atilla]

But we don't live in other countries, we live here in the UK, and whatever the Swiss government decides for its railways has no impact here.

So you reckon that when the UK government ran the railways through British Rail everything worked well?

Leaving aside the possibilities that this is just rosy-tinted nostalgia or ideologically driven bias, what qualifications does the UK government have to run anything?

What does the UK government run really really well?

Here's a few starters -

• border control
• the Income Tax system
• education
• social care
• the NHS
• the Passport Office
• the DVLA

Which of these would be the preferred model for the next nationalised industry?

In most countries, because public transport is of strategic importance they are more often than not subsidised.

In the UK nationalised industries were always starved of investment.

Privatisation hasn't given any value to the public benefit or national productivity.

Private companies are still subsidised today. It would be a good exercise to do a comparison, by how much in real terms, what the subsidisation levels before and now are.

Moreover, privatisation has led to dramatic increases in the cost of public transport. Prices are way higher than before.

Really, if you add the higher cost of public transport plus subsidisation by the taxpayer, yes railways before were darn site better value and more affordable in the past.

The whole government v privatisation and inefficiencies rewards and skills and talent the debate is ill-informed and skewed for those in the game creaming British public of their hard-earned cash with lower services and value.


Same goes for British Leyland, Shipyards, Textiles, Railways. British Management is the problem not the workers. It was never the workers. That's the sad biggest lie and issue with British manufacturing. Identify the wrong cause and thus compete on the wrong factors.

 

[tomorton]

In most countries, because public transport is of strategic importance they are more often than not subsidised.

In the UK nationalised industries were always starved of investment.

Privatisation hasn't given any value to the public benefit or national productivity.

Private companies are still subsidised today. It would be a good exercise to do a comparison, by how much in real terms, what the subsidisation levels before and now are.

Moreover, privatisation has led to dramatic increases in the cost of public transport. Prices are way higher than before.

Really, if you add the higher cost of public transport plus subsidisation by the taxpayer, yes railways before were darn site better value and more affordable in the past.

The whole government v privatisation and inefficiencies rewards and skills and talent the debate is ill-informed and skewed for those in the game creaming British public of their hard-earned cash with lower services and value.


Same goes for British Leyland, Shipyards, Textiles, Railways. British Management is the problem not the workers. It was never the workers. That's the sad biggest lie and issue with British manufacturing. Identify the wrong cause and thus compete on the wrong factors.

So what does the UK government run really really well which could be a model for a newly nationalised industry or sector or infrastructure?

Perhaps -

• policing
• the law courts system
• Council Tax
• child protection
• the smart motorway network
• RAF recruitment
• etc. etc.

My point is that governments are really bad at what they do every day, day in day out. How could they even be suggested to run an effective nationalised company or service or sector or industry? The idea is pure theoretical ideological socialist nonsense.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Transport for London works pretty well, not cheap but efficient.
I am not a fan of UK, I visited many countries, UK is not the best but neither the worst.
National railways work better than private railways, it is a general law, should work for UK too, it is still planet earth.

 

[tomorton]

Transport for London works pretty well, not cheap but efficient.
I am not a fan of UK, I visited many countries, UK is not the best but neither the worst.
National railways work better than private railways, it is a general law, should work for UK too, it is still planet earth.

I'm sure the London underground network infrastructure is world class. Trains are fast, safe and frequent but owing to its late 19th century development, the network by-passes large areas of the city with dense populations.

However TfL's management of the service is off the scale - at the bottom end unfortunately. The newest additional line, the Elizabeth line is years late and astronomically over-budget. TfL as a whole is under-funded compared with other major cities and is effectively financially bankrupt. Passenger numbers had not been rising in line with London's population growth for years before the pandemic and are catastrophically lower since then. Industrial disputes, staffing difficulties and employee strikes continue to severely disrupt service - there have been 95 TfL strikes since the current Mayor took office, this issue well pre-dates the current cost-of-living panic.

 

[Atilla]

So what does the UK government run really really well which could be a model for a newly nationalised industry or sector or infrastructure?

Perhaps -

• policing
• the law courts system
• Council Tax
• child protection
• the smart motorway network
• RAF recruitment
• etc. etc.

My point is that governments are really bad at what they do every day, day in day out. How could they even be suggested to run an effective nationalised company or service or sector or industry? The idea is pure theoretical ideological socialist nonsense.

The government doesn't run anything much like CEO's.

They merely set policy, standards, rules and regulations and provide funding for the same people to run it but under Government supervision.

The problem is politics and this is why the EU works better colllectively, setting standards and policies, than self interest serving politicians. Point raised and mentioned by Cavalier many times.

The reason why social services are run down is because Tories and those who vote for greedy tax cuts are happy to dispense with services they don't use. Ultimately, it comes back to each and everyone of us when sooner or later some aspect of national day to day events impinges on our daily lives.

Your comprehension and driving principles are different that's all. Just look at how Netherlands manages their public transport policy and draw your own conclusions.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Public transport is not a profit making machine.
It is more a service than a business opportunity, like health and education.
I know 2 contries with private reailways companies: UK and US.
US is even worse than UK , so it is not a matter of smartness of the govs, it is a wrong business model.
If you want railroads that work for the citizen, it is better where they are national.

The goal for TFL is not to make profit but to make London a better place and it is acheived.

 

[tomorton]

The government doesn't run anything much like CEO's.

They merely set policy, standards, rules and regulations and provide funding for the same people to run it but under Government supervision.

The problem is politics and this is why the EU works better colllectively, setting standards and policies, than self interest serving politicians. Point raised and mentioned by Cavalier many times.

The reason why social services are run down is because Tories and those who vote for greedy tax cuts are happy to dispense with services they don't use. Ultimately, it comes back to each and everyone of us when sooner or later some aspect of national day to day events impinges on our daily lives.

Your comprehension and driving principles are different that's all. Just look at how Netherlands manages their public transport policy and draw your own conclusions.

But does the UK government run anything really well? And where they have delegated authority to an agency or plc or a trust or another body, has that been run really well?

If there are no current examples, as none have yet been suggested, maybe at some point in recent modern history?

I wish to point out the irony in supporting nationalisation of utilities and public services by a UK government which absolutely fails in all service delivery. We all know that anything run by government will be an unmitigated costly disaster. Why would we vote for the government to take over the running of even a burger trailer?

 

[tomorton]

Public transport is not a profit making machine.
It is more a service than a business opportunity, like health and education.
I know 2 contries with private reailways companies: UK and US.
US is even worse than UK , so it is not a matter of smartness of the govs, it is a wrong business model.
If you want railroads that work for the citizen, it is better where they are national.

The goal for TFL is not to make profit but to make London a better place and it is acheived.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that UK education and UK health service are positive examples of effective government management producing significant benefits?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I can't speak about education, about NHS it is not so bad, slightly worse than our SSN in Italy but there are much worse cases.
My girlfriend works for NHS, it is decent.

 

[tomorton]

I can't speak about education, about NHS it is not so bad, slightly worse than our SSN in Italy but there are much worse cases.
My girlfriend works for NHS, it is decent.

The clinical staff within the NHs are as good as you could wish to find anywhere.

However, the NHS's performance in many areas of clinical treatment is and always has been in the lower end of a scale of national health systems in developed countries. Its useful to Google up key indicators for different countries and of let's say 10 or 12 developed countries' national health systems the NHS comes out near the bottom. Look at life expectancy, change of life expectancy, cancer survival rates, operation waiting times, cost per head of population, etc. etc.

We have a NHS which performs poorly and costs more money than it should.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Look at life expectancy, change of life expectancy, cancer survival rates, operation waiting times, cost per head of population, etc. etc.

This is mostly due to bad food habits of Brits and too much people getting drunk regularly every evening at pubs.
Too much fried stuff, too much fat sugar and salt.
Life expectancy is high in Italy and Spain because we have different habits, we drink a decent amount but without getting drunk.

 

[counter_violent]

Looks like Putin may have to de-Nazifi Italy next yr.
He's a bit bizzi at the moment though.

Giorgia Meloni: Far-right leader poised to run Italy

Giorgia Meloni is set to be Italy's first female PM and vehemently rejects any link to fascism.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[tomorton]

Looks like Putin may have to de-Nazifi Italy next yr.
He's a bit bizzi at the moment though.

Giorgia Meloni: Far-right leader poised to run Italy

Giorgia Meloni is set to be Italy's first female PM and vehemently rejects any link to fascism.

www.bbc.co.uk

Poor Italy, barely a functioning democracy, with a revolving door to the office for top politician.

Interestingly, Italian railway services are ranked 15th out of 25 European systems by Boston consulting Group (2017). This was a worse position than when earlier surveyed in 2015 and in 2012. The only two western, northern or Scandinavian countries ranked lower than Italy are Ireland and Portugal.

The UK's railway service was ranked 8th.

German railways, privatised, were ranked 4th.

 

[alan5616]

Poor Italy, barely a functioning democracy, with a revolving door to the office for top politician.

Interestingly, Italian railway services are ranked 15th out of 25 European systems by Boston consulting Group (2017). This was a worse position than when earlier surveyed in 2015 and in 2012. The only two western, northern or Scandinavian countries ranked lower than Italy are Ireland and Portugal.

The UK's railway service was ranked 8th.

German railways, privatised, were ranked 4th.

I received a text from my cousin yesterday. She had just travelled on a clean, air conditioned train from Naples to Rome, a 3 hour journey, for the sum of £17. The train left on time and arrived on time. The cost of a similar train journey in the UK would be around £150. It would seem that the ranking quoted above is obsolete.

 

[tomorton]

I received a text from my cousin yesterday. She had just travelled on a clean, air conditioned train from Naples to Rome, a 3 hour journey, for the sum of £17. The train left on time and arrived on time. The cost of a similar train journey in the UK would be around £150. It would seem that the ranking quoted above is obsolete.

The survey of course looked at all European rail systems so perhaps some of the rankings might have changed a little since then. Maybe Italian railways have drastically re-organised and improved since 2017? Is this the case? And its also possible that all the other countries in Europe have made their rail services worse since 2017? I have no info on that.....

I think the Italian government subsidises their rail service far more heavily than the UK does. Possibly most European governments do likewise. So the difference in fares between the two countries is met by general taxation rather than train customer ticket pricing.

Which is OK if what you believe is that the government can run something far better than anyone else. My belief is that government does what it does badly. And bad governments do it worse.

But maybe there is indeed an Italian public service which is run by the government which does not cost an arm and a leg, but which is world class. Any suggestions please?