Training courses and their claims

[mma]

wysiwyg ,

hmmm , I hope you are not taking this personally as a slight or something . perhaps you have friends that do not meet my criteria , in which case you should say so . I have no opinion about that either way .

This is starting to sound like I'm trying to convince you of my view which I AM NOT . you can think what you like , and so can I .

If you don't feel it's necessary to question those taking your money for " tuition " , then so be it . I of course feel the exact opposite . The point is that if people go into these courses with their eyes closed , then they cannot complain if they get a raw deal .

and no , I have not backtracked in the slightest bit . a winning record in trading or producing traders is still a winning record .
But I would say this is a consolation rather than one of the main qualities I would look for .

The question is can anyone of these so called trading failures but great teachers produce X no. of students who have made decent money over the risk they took over a reasonable amount of time ? I haven't seen one yet .

Skim ,

good for you .

 

[ChartMan]

mma...... I think there's truth in what's said here both ways. Ther eis no one way answer. I find that a lot of people have thanked me for the guidance I have given them on this BB with particular reference to DOW trading. They have specifically commented on how their trading has improved no end. Now I'm not known as being the world's best DOW trader, far,far from it in fact. This goes some small way to showing that you don't have to be a mega trader to assist others in achieving good results. On the other hand, I would feel a fraud if I were to offer a get rich quick course on trading the DOW for a grand or two ........

 

[aussietrader]

I have found this discussion very interesting. As a professional financial adviser who also has written a trading course the importance of understanding the theory cannot be understated.

However, imho nothing can compare with experiencing the good, the bad and the ugly emotions that trading/investing bring about in most people. Until you have experienced a big drawdown you will never know how to deal with it.

In my profession, people tell me that they want x % returns and they are happy with the risk levels they are exposed to. However, when the first quarter/year of negative returns eventuates these same people are on the telephone seeking assurance that strategy is right.

Unless you have personally experienced similar situations I do not believe that you can truly empathise with them and help them through their difficulties.

However, everyone operates at different levels and you can be an average trader but an excellent adviser. Sometimes it is easier to be disciplined in your advice rather than your actions. e.g telling your kids that getting drunk is bad but some of us get drunk anyway ;-)

A good coach must have experienced operation at the highest level but does not necessarily have to have been the best. It also works the other way.

I once won the Henley rowing regatta yet don't have the patience or technical skill to be a good rowing coach. However, I know what attributes a good coach should have because I learned under several.

Trading is very similar. You can learn the theory but not everyone can be a good coach. I believe motivation for coaching has a lot to do with it. I love selling my book because the sales proceeds support the kids' education but I am happiest if people actually learn from it. Book sales will never replace my required income from trading and advising but why not share some experience that cost loads of money (through losing loads) to obtain. It helps others and helps me pay the school fees!

I have seen many many traders make a few lucky fortunes only to lose the lot again. No matter how you trade or what method you use, the real difference is money management. If a coach can convince you of that and explain it in a way that you will understand and accept then they are worth the thousands of restful nights you will enjoy through not being anxious about your trading positions.

Good luck and good trading to you all

Aussie

 

[wysinawyg]

wysiwyg ,

hmmm , I hope you are not taking this personally as a slight or something . perhaps you have friends that do not meet my criteria , in which case you should say so . I have no opinion about that either way .

Don't worry, I'm not taking it at all personally, life is too short to take anything off of a bulletin board too personally!

Really I'm just putting forward a different view about why I have paid for the training I have (and am going to). To go into a bit more detail I've so far paid for one course and am due to go on another.

The one I've been on was given by somebody who is an ex-professional trader and had been making his living from trading for years. No promises involved on the course as he wasn't selling a system or promises of how you'd do, just basic tuition in TSR. However I didn't do the course because he used to be a pro-trader or because he had supporting himself trading for years, I did it because people I had respect for reccomended the course.

Going the other way I have a friend who trades futures professionally for a bank. Now I assume he is good (bearing in mind he took a year and a half or so off work living a fairly nice life) but he is good in the professional sense and (self-admitted) flopped when he tried to trade his own account. As such I haven't ever really felt the inclination to discuss trading with him.

Contrast that with the next guy I am going on a course with who used to be a dentist and probably hasn't been trading as long as my friend has. However, I've heard good things about his course which is the main factor for me (although he does provide info on what you can expect based on a previous trainee so is giving some kind of record, but to be honest that isn't a big factor for me and I haven't actually looked at the record he sent me in any kind of detail).

wysi

 

[mma]

Chartman ,

well ok , if you are offering your advice for free and people have benifitted then good for all concerned .

trouble starts with money being involved and the ensuing claims.

 

[SUNSEEKER]

this is a very interesting thread, and I hope you dont mind I add to it. My own teachers have all given me what has shaped me into what I am today, but in reality they only made available ( at a cost as well ) the material. I had to understand it both intellectually and emotionally. That was VERY hard work and STILL is very hard work.

Skimble wrote a great post saying that the losses had to be experienced and the emotional problems had to be faced and eradicated. All this can be learned and dealt with through observation and keeping a trading diary.

I believe that those who teach do so for various reasons. However, I think it is a fallacy to claim that those who teach dont trade themselves. I say that because I have seen my own mentor over a 6 month period trade 4-8 times or more a day. He himself had some tuition from Larry Pesavento who while they sat together went long 50 BIG SP500 contracts with a 10 point stop. I daily see my ex-mentor trade 10 lots in the SP500. I once asked him why he taught. He told me, and I say so because it reflects my own view, that he loved helping other people achieving their dreams and their goals.

The truth is that this business is tough, in pretty much all shapes and forms. However, those who want it will succeed.

Very few want it bad enough.


(sorry, had to edit this because of all the spelling mistakes )

 

[grubs50]

One thing that i would also wanna know is whether these teachers/traders wouldn't really be bothered if nobody turned up 4 their courses since it is basically a side show 4 them and if they would be bothered, y is that the case since they r not doing it 4 financial gains?

 

[mma]

Sunseeker ,

if you are refering to me , I believe I did not say that teachers MUST be trading at same time they are teaching , indeed I think with the intensity of both jobs , that would be nigh impossible to do to the best of one's ability. And you would NEED that . otherwise you would comprimise both functions.

In my view , this is all or nothing business , like so much of life . At any one time either you are a trader or a teacher, otherwise you may get the worst of both worlds.

WHAT I DID MEAN, IF NOT SAY : is that teachers should have credible winning pedigree behind them , as specified in my criteria.

A winning trader may not want to trade at the moment .

I would say that there are many valid reasons for winners to want to stop trading , at least for a while and perhaps then to teach in the void . why the hell not .

Trading is a tedious and oft boring business , different people have different toleration levels for such .

As such , I would even say that if you want it TOO much, then it may be a handicap rather than an asset . Trading is a lot like snooker - when you can play like it means nothing when it actually means everything , then you've cracked it .



grubs ,

yes , a good point you make , which begs the question : " why are they doing this ? if not for money "

 

[Trader333]

I just got this from City Index, I dont know how they got my email address but it features one of our more active board members. In view of this thread being about training I thought I would include it and before anyone asks I have nothing to do with them and dont use SB companies. I have only taken part of the screenshot so not all of it is displayed.

Paul

 

[grubs50]

It's my first time of seeing his name!!

 

[Mayfly]

Hi Grubs,

And would this http://www.tradeforyourlife.com/profile.php be the second time, by any chance?

Cheers

 

[grubs50]

I still get the impression that 1 or 2 ppl r just here to promote their courses and nothing else.............not that it matters to me cos i have gained and will continue to gain a lot from this wonderful website.....probably more than i would learn if i attended a one-off training course at some crazy price.

 

[GruntnoWay]

I can't seem to get unbiased advice about courses. Everyone knocks everyone else except their own, or their friend's course. I think training is essential. I want the theory not some trading scheme someone has dreamt up.

In any case, why would anyone who has a trading scheme want to tell anyone else? I'm not sure, unless it doesn't work that well.

Once I know the theory (no I don't want to read books, you can't ask a book a question), I will work out my own trading scheme.

I wonder if I should start my own course.

 

[Naz]

Why dont some of the training courses show things on a live market like the one's that i run for t2w, shown on its homepage,which both include a live section.

This week i had to run a trading 1-2-1 for a trader.The US markets were shut so i demonstrated my ideas on the forex market over a period of three hours.Live market tuition in my mind is a winner.

 

[michael_d]

Traders vs Teachers

The real test of a good teacher in the market is how successful were his students?
Even if the teacher is not one of the top 5% of traders he must have the ability to transfer his knowledge/system to his students.

Many students in the business of trading have learned from a not so successful trader. For a beginner it is very important to have some appreciation of both technical and fundamental analysis. The best way to obtain this knowledge is to pay for a course.

Happy trading and training. :