Trading with a view to join a prop firm

[Nowler]

You said you wanted the training a prop firm would offer - I'd say that these arcades/prop firms generally don't offer a great deal in the way of training and that what they do offer in the most part you could probably get relatively cheaply from a program such as that offered by the firm I linked to (while I'll emphasise again that I'd be skeptical about the firm overall I do think that if you're starting from basically almost 0 experience then perhaps it could be $100 well spent)

You're just taking punts with some bucket shop at the moment? No interaction with an actual exchange - you don't get to see any liquidity/the order book is just a two way quote provided by the bucket shop you have an account with?

That sort of thing doesn't lend itself very well to the sort of intraday trading these firms/arcades do.

I'll also need to add in again that this sort of intraday trading isn't very likely to work out for you, you're very likely to not be able to make money from this...

I may have misunderstood your previous post a little.

I'll have a look at the link shortly and see if I would be willing to invest €100 in their training. I am doing a free course which I find very useful so after this I may test the other one out since it is just €100. People have spent more on less

Yes, I am spread betting with a bucket shop (Oanda) at the moment but that's just where I landed. I have already put some work into looking around at Options and Futures. Spread betting just happens to be where I began to learn my craft.

I am restricted by capital so have to make do with what I have at my disposal. When I am happy that I am ready to move from a mini live account then I will be willing to deposit more money. So far, I have not found any futures brokers willing to let me play with as little as Oanda does. A friend of mine opened an account for €5...I €20.

If you can point me in the direction of a futures broker that's willing to let me in for that, then that would be great.

 

[DT]

nope I can't sorry, even if you could open an account at a futures broker for $20 you couldn't trade anything

have you had a look at Betfair? If you're on a budget then that might be an option, at least you'll have an order book (and an API) to play around with and can start to learn about market microstructure etc..

 

[Nowler]

nope I can't sorry, even if you could open an account at a futures broker for $20 you couldn't trade anything

have you had a look at Betfair? If you're on a budget then that might be an option, at least you'll have an order book (and an API) to play around with and can start to learn about market microstructure etc..

I don't share your pessimism.
Of course I am not disputing that most people who attempt to trade the markets will fail, but from the work I have put in over the last 6 or more months I am optimistic enough to continue. Of course spread betting is not my goal, but I have to start somewhere... My risk/money management is good so even if I can't make spreadbetting work, I will at least keep my shirt and my dignity.

If I cannot make that work to build enough capital to make the next step away from spread betting then I'll reevaluate. But for the moment I am enjoying learning and trading fx with a mini spread account. It's keeping me stimulated and amused while I continue learning more about economics and the psychology involved, so at the very least, it'll will have to do until I can raise the capital needed, via trading or saving...
We'll see I guess, I'll proceed with caution.

I actually did come across something about cold trading on horse racing and whatnot! I wrote it down so that i'd come back to it but I just got consumed by the amount of work that goes into learning how to trade. That type of trading sounds kinda wacky... but I'm going to do a bit of reading on it now.

 

[DT]

it isn't pessimism, just being realistic

 

[Trading Spaces]

Seriously, why are you looking at FX when bitcoin and other cryptos are moving?

 

[brewski1984]

Seriously, why are you looking at FX when bitcoin and other cryptos are moving?

Are you in bitcoin and what are your targets?

 

[Nowler]

it isn't pessimism, just being realistic

Well yeah, it's unlikely that any new trader will ever be profitable but I am trying to remain optimistic while I plough through all this learning. I know that you were just highlighting the task at hand, but I have no shortage of people reminding me how unlikely I am to make anything of this.

What I have is all I have.
All I can do is continue learning...if that means being proved that I can't make money from spread betting forex, well then so be it. All I can do is keep looking for evidence. So far, I seem to be able to make money. My issue is stemming my losses.

 

[Nowler]

Seriously, why are you looking at FX when bitcoin and other cryptos are moving?

Because I have no interest in risking money on them

 

[Trading Spaces]

Because I have no interest in risking money on them

So you want to risk money in a market controlled by a central bank Where breakouts fail?

 

[Nowler]

So you want to risk money in a market controlled by a central bank Where breakouts fail?

Please go sell Crypto to someone else.
I don't care about it.

Thanks

 

[brewski1984]

So you want to risk money in a market controlled by a central bank Where breakouts fail?

How come you didn't answer my question?

I made a topic on Bitcoin, it sounds like you're trading it so I was just curious what your thoughts were?

 

[darktone]

Betfair's not a bad suggestion actually. Can open an acc with peanuts and use Geekstoy free for a month. Will give you an idea of how the market actually works, can bid n offer, see depth etc. Nice environment to dip your toe and learn how to work an order and really manage your shiz with a spot of risk.

 

[Nowler]

Betfair's not a bad suggestion actually. Can open an acc with peanuts and use Geekstoy free for a month. Will give you an idea of how the market actually works, can bid n offer, see depth etc. Nice environment to dip your toe and learn how to work an order and really manage your shiz with a spot of risk.

Yeah, it's certainly an interesting one!
I did a bit of reading on it last night but realistically, what could I learn in an hour of reading.

I might dabble in it a bit later... just for the sake of actually laying eyes on it in progress. Might even find a few youtube videos of it in action!

 

[Trading Spaces]

Please go sell Crypto to someone else.
I don't care about it.

Thanks

So you are not interested in the biggest move in a public market in human history?

 

[Trading Spaces]

Are you in bitcoin and what are your targets?

Bitcoin is like gold marks in Weimar Germany, this could be as big. See chart attached,

 

[brewski1984]

Bitcoin is like gold marks in Weimar Germany, this could be as big. See chart attached,

Jesus that would be insane if that happened, what is the comparison to the two that would cause that?

 

[Brumby]

Bitcoin is like gold marks in Weimar Germany, this could be as big. See chart attached,

It is simplistic to take a snapshot of history to make a point. Where is gold pricing today relative to the point?

I asked a similar question in another thread. and I will repeat it here. If you are trading Bitcoin, what is your trade plan in terms of exit be it to take profit or to protect your capital?

 

[DT]

All I can do is continue learning...if that means being proved that I can't make money from spread betting forex, well then so be it.

but not being able to make money from spread betting doesn't necessarily mean you'd not be able to make money from trading futures (well if you're really bad then perhaps it isn't a good sign)

All I can do is keep looking for evidence. So far, I seem to be able to make money. My issue is stemming my losses.

this seems a bit confused/contradictory - you're able to make money but you've got an issue with your losses??? These are mutually exclusive things, you're either making money or you're not.


anyway another suggestion - various futures brokers will offer you a free trial - you could experiment with a sim for a few weeks yourself - that is essentially what you'd be doing if you joined an arcade

and as for the education/training side - if you're going for a DIY approach then stuff about economic releases and some basic technical analysis you can get pretty much everywhere (don't focus too much on the technical analysis stuff, especially if you start spread trading).

there are some videos on youtube that cover say spread trading for example (see below) - this trader has some basic introductory videos on his channel and quite an inexpensive e-book on amazon

there are also a few other videos out there also worth checking out the education section of the various exchange websites - Eurex, CME, ICE etc...

again, I'll chuck in the "pessimistic" warning that this sort of trading is pretty competitive these days and there are plenty of machines out there trading various spreads etc...

 

[Nowler]

but not being able to make money from spread betting doesn't necessarily mean you'd not be able to make money from trading futures (well if you're really bad then perhaps it isn't a good sign)

True.
In your opinion, why might one fail at spread betting and perhaps not with Futures? Where's the key issue with the spread?

this seems a bit confused/contradictory - you're able to make money but you've got an issue with your losses??? These are mutually exclusive things, you're either making money or you're not.

I should have said that I am well able to win trades (42%)... my bad

anyway another suggestion - various futures brokers will offer you a free trial - you could experiment with a sim for a few weeks yourself - that is essentially what you'd be doing if you joined an arcade

and as for the education/training side - if you're going for a DIY approach then stuff about economic releases and some basic technical analysis you can get pretty much everywhere (don't focus too much on the technical analysis stuff, especially if you start spread trading).

Good suggestion.
I had done this with NinjaTrader but I never got around to trying it before I got an email saying that my data trail was up. I put my spread betting practice as priority because all of the Futures I have seen pretty much priced me out when it comes to a mini live account. At least with the spread betting I know that once i'm ready to deposit much more, I can for a manageable amount. But yes, I will practice on some trial/demo Futures accounts.

there are some videos on youtube that cover say spread trading for example (see below) - this trader has some basic introductory videos on his channel and quite an inexpensive e-book on amazon

there are also a few other videos out there also worth checking out the education section of the various exchange websites - Eurex, CME, ICE etc...

again, I'll chuck in the "pessimistic" warning that this sort of trading is pretty competitive these days and there are plenty of machines out there trading various spreads etc...

Thanks for the input and video links mate. I appreciate it.
I'm going to read something about Risk of Ruin now but I'll take a look at the videos after that. And the education section of the some exchange websites of course

 

[DT]

True.
In your opinion, why might one fail at spread betting and perhaps not with Futures? Where's the key issue with the spread?

I was just trying to highlight that they're not the same thing... why might one person fail to get onto the rugby team but perhaps not fail to get on the football team etc..

sure the fat kid who is massively unfit may be useless at both though and the guy who blows up his spread betting account in a handful of trades is probably a very morbidly obese kid in this analogy

OK it isn't the best of analogies but the main thing is simply they're different - failing at one doesn't mean you'd necessarily fail at the other - the issue with the spread is the massive cost it adds - some successful series of futures trades might cause massive losses if you tried the same thing with an SB firm where you can't work a limit order to buy at the bid etc..

Good suggestion.
I had done this with NinjaTrader but I never got around to trying it before I got an email saying that my data trail was up. I put my spread betting practice as priority because all of the Futures I have seen pretty much priced me out when it comes to a mini live account. At least with the spread betting I know that once i'm ready to deposit much more, I can for a manageable amount. But yes, I will practice on some trial/demo Futures accounts.

that's a reasonable concern and frankly trying to trade futures on a shoestring budget isn't a good idea - thus why I suggested perhaps a small Betfair account might at least get you playing around with a limit order book (yup also not quite the same but you'll at least get to play around with a price ladder rather than just whacking up a chart and trading off two way quotes)

(if you're stuck for money then "matched betting" - basically abusing the signup offers at different bookies is/was an easy way to get some quick cash... I did it years ago when I was a student but apparently it is still feasible now, albeit probably less lucrative than back in the day - alternatively just wait until you have some disposable income to trade with)