Trading Platforms

[stone]

Well you two smart guys, hear this.
I use TA before I open a trade and during the time the trade is open and I will continue to do so.
I do not use Level 2 and have no plans to use it in the future.
I have consistently made an average return on capital of 1.5% per day swing trading the FTSE 100 over the last seven years of full time trading.
Just shows boys & girls that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
All the best
Stone

 

[TraderPattern]

Just shows boys & girls that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Nice trading Stone... I agree, there are many ways to skin a cat... for me Level2 allows me to skin that feline beast in the most profitable way. But, hey, if charts work for you, stick with em! Level2 aint for everyone, thats pretty obvious... but if you like action and you like consistently screwing the newbies into bankruptcy (who, fwiw, are usually playing the charts) whilst slickly avoiding being screwed over yourself by Goldman Sachs, then there is nothing that can beat Level2 (apart from showing Melinda Messenger what life is about).

It's a personality thing..

1) if you spend your spare time pouring over charts, then you are a chart man, and your price fills will be bad cos people like me will be all over you. And the only reason I will not be all over you is if you are trading the UK market (which doesn't have Level2 ... so I wouldn't bother trading it ... it is too medieval, expensive and darnright inefficient ... the old la-di-da boys in their investment firms still have the upper hand on UK stocks ... under no circumstances would I ever consider competing in a virtual monopoly environment run by upper class Hooray Henrys where I would have to take whatever price they quoted ... its darnright theft and I hope one day it will be outlawed ... I am sorry to say this, but the London Stock Exchange hasn't woken up and smelt the coffee yet ... but hey, I am not surprised ... the people running the London Stock Exchange probably shared the same dorm - maybe even the same bed - at Eton and then later at Oxford as the people running the investment firms... the UK set-up disgusts me totally ... USA is the ONLY option).

2) If you spend your spare time
a) taking Lara Croft through caves and zapping aliens (whilst making the occasional, disciplined glance at her anatomical protusions - purely for inspirational purposes),
b) bombing Saddam with a virtual F16,
c) boxing against a virtual Mike Tyson,
... any or all of a)-c) then you are probably a Level2 man.

... If you do neither of 1) or 2), then I aint got a clue!

 

[Naz]

Well of course i knew Trader Pattern and myself would upset someone but i truly hope that we didnt offend anyone.
_____________________________________________

So continuing where we left off.

We level 2 Nasdaq traders are in general ex UK t/a traders.We know how you play your game.You dont have a clue how we play ours.So how can you criticise something you dont FULLY understand.

You are being ripped off BIG time in the UK.Your level 2 in the UK is complete mickey mouse.I went out with some real top guys who matter in the establishment and i said to them why dont you embrace the direct access level 2 type of trading that the Nasdaq have and they said"To much power to the man in the street old man!"I couldnt believe they said it.

If the UK have nothing to hide why dont they let the US brokers advertise overhere.They just couldnt compete against the competition.

In the US the market makers fought tooth and nail in the 90's to try and keep their monopoly.In August 1996 the SEC past Order handling rules which established market transparency and the ECN's(these allows you me and joe bloggs to trade along side the market makers and to jump infront of them at will)

In January 1997 Implementation of the ECN's happened on the Nasdaq.

In December 1997 Market makers agree to settle the class-action case for approximately $1billion

The SEC clamped down on years of restrictive,unfair trading practices and threw the doors open for independent traders.

This is what needs to happen in the UK but it is such a Goldmine ripping UK players off, it will take years to put a stop to it.In the mean time the battle was fought and won in the US courts,to give everyone the chance to see true transparency and fair trading.Thats why we play it.

Instead of arguing why dont more UK t/a players put both styles of trading together.I still cant work out why more UK individuals dont check it out.

 

[TraderPattern]

Well of course i knew Trader Pattern and myself would upset someone but i truly hope that we didnt offend anyone.

I second that! I am not here to offend people either. My passion is for the sort of trading I do and, to be frank, sometimes my passion sounds like anger Maybe it is anger, subconsciously seeping out.

I tell ya something, my anger is directed in 3 directions:
1) The people running the UK markets; the regulators, stock exchange, investment firms... this Hooray Henry Greed Mongering Club of self-interested ba$tid$ are maintaining a monopoly on the profits to be made trading UK stocks. And the tragedy is, most private traders don't even realise that they are being duped. Like Naz, I used to trade UK stocks... it was an expensive, murky world of poor executions, <<<wide>>> spreads and sheer exploitation by the market makers. And to top it off, commissions were way too high and there was also that stupid stamp duty of 0.5%. Man-o-man, 0.5% is often my return on a trade.
2) Brits who fail to open their eyes, who remain tunnel-visioned into thinking "Buy British", "British is Best". I tell ya something, when it comes to trading, Brit is most certainly NOT best. Brit is a pile of dog sh!t. We must look West to the USA. USA is best for trading... period. So drop any misplaced patriotism ... the City of London doesn't deserve one iota of my patriotism and it aint gonna get it. The USA gets my respect, no sweat! The City of London can go and toss itself off for all I care.
3) T/A traders who look down on the purest form of trading. Level2 is as pure as its gonna get... there is no intermediate analysis. You are trading immersed IN the market. Its like being in a trading pit, except for the fact that its a virtual pit.

 

[mgd]

so NAZ & TRADER PATERN
you go non about using level2 but I take it that you are using T/A

 

[Naz]

Mgd.i,ve posted an overview on all this on market chat but i'll try and answer this question.

On the Nasdaq the immediate action and the possible action appear on the Naz level 2 screen.What you actualy see on your graph is the result after the players have made a decision and traded at that level.So the fact is who wants to look at a graph because that information shown is history its happened, we want to see what will happen.

So all Trader Pattern needs is the S&P futures for the overall direction of the market and his level 2 screens.If you look in "TA & systems" you will see in "Nasdaq level 2 training" that i traded stocks without looking at a graph thus catching an exact bottom.Why because the market makers showed me.I only looked at a graph afterwards to see how their actions looked on a graph.

Utilising the screen for quick trades to take advantage of ill informed players is called scalping.Yes it is rough and tough but extremely interesting in that it gives a true feel for how the stock is realy behaving.

However as i've said before their is no reason why the t/a trader who is looking at things differently shouldn't check out the action on the screen to see if the players that matter agree with his view in the direction of the stock.If the market makers want to take the stock in a different direction than your indicators then you dont enter the trade.If they confirm with your view then you can get in early.Remember its the players on the level 2 screen who dictate the movemnt of your stock. The graph is just a pictorial view of the result.

To answer the question fully.No way would i look at a graph when i want to take my trades.But i would do for spotting potential set ups.However i use no indicators.I just want to see the trend and potential support and resistance.Then after that everything is on the L2 screen.

Please remember that many of us as i said before are ex UK t/a traders who just took our learning a little bit further and were open enough to look at another form of trading.

I have done talks infront of a 100 t/a traders in London with a live Nasdaq level 2 screen beamed on the screen behind me and shown them how to truly read a stock live and trade the stock without a graph and they have been stunned to silence.Many,many of them later took up the oppertunity to learn how it all worked.

 

[stone]

Which is it Naz?

One moment you ridicule us TA traders for pouring over
charts for hours, and after all our hard work we give all our hard earned money to you "smart guys" using level 2. Then in the next breath you tell us you use TA yourself before you trade!!! Next you will be telling us that "yes" you do have a few charts open whilst trading.
Just goes to show that us "lowlife" TA fans have a little more credibility than you two Level two fans will admit.
Perhaps they should be explaining to us all why so many of these
so called Level 2 "experts" get "wiped out" in droves year after year after supposedly taking all us TA plodders to the cleaners.
"Oh well" back to the chart lists. I must decide on my stops strategy this weekend to see how much money I can afford to give away again to these super beings.

Stay Happy

Stone

 

[Naz]

Stone,I knew all this would cause a debate.

If you have listened to me many times i have said why dont people put both styles of trading together.Now if someone mentions a stock to me as i said in the previous post i will look at a graph to see where its come from where its going and its support and resitance levels.Then i will forget it and trade it on level 2.I will not analyse the graph in any shape or form i just want to know the basics quickly in any new stock.


Next point,i always hear criticism from people about level 2 but it is always from people who have never tried it or dont understand it and seem unable to embrace something completely new.

The next point is this that unfortunately level 2 was and is taught by people in the US who had a financial gain in teaching beginners to scalp the market.I have always maintained that there is a learning curve to learning it and it should be learnt in a particular way that dosnt put any capital at risk.

These new players in the US are so gung ho that they make easy pickings for people who have studied and slowly taken their time to learn it correctly.

Finaly i go back to this point instead of criticising something you know nothing about go and open your mind and look at something that can help any style of trading.

 

[TraderPattern]

T/A traders,

Like I previously said, charts can be used to gauge potential for moves before they have actually occured (read my previous posts)... also a chart of the futures tells me i aint surfing in the wrong direction (see my trading set-up picture earlier on in this thread ... its got a chart on it!)... I categorically do not use charts to pull the trigger ... I use Level2.

It boils down to this:
A guy who knows Level2 inside out who may occasionally glance at a chart will kick the butt of a T/A trader trading off the same chart.

OK, I will address my comments to 2 different groups of people:-

1) If any of you guys are NOT trading the US markets, it's pretty pointless even debating with me and Naz about Level2, cos you will not know what Level2 is... if you don't know what Level2 is, how can you possibly analyse its merits and demerits? For you guys trading the UK markets, I will agree charts ARE the only was to trade it, simply because there is NO level2... its a crooked market, seems almost as if it was set-up to disadvantage the private trader... so if you are trading the UK markets, you have no option but to trade charts... and you will be screwed over time and time again by the smiling institutions who are winning at your expense without you even realising it. Like I said, I aint interested in hearing UK t/a traders criticise Level2 ... you have NEVER used it, so what value can your criticism possibly have? Carry on trading the UK and carry on getting screwed by a system set up to screw you (wide spreads, stamp duty, low liquidity, poor executions, high commissions, no ability to set prices etc etc)

2) If you are trading the US markets and just using charts, you have at least got the benefits of razor tight spreads, low commissions and great executions... your next step is to start using Level2 alongside charts... the more and more you use Level2, the less and less you will be using charts. Soon enough you will be thinking like me and Naz.

 

[Naz]

Trader patteren I just couldnt agree more.

Why oh why do we only hear criticism from traders who know absolutly nothing about it at all. Are they frightened of having a look?

And when it's shown how it works to UK traders they say "wonderful" "excellent,Dramatic" "brilliant, absolutely brilliant" "WOW!" "Awesome" see www.clickevents.co.uk (Nasdaq scalping)

When I have taught people I've had comments like

"Words cannot explain the impact that this day has had to my trading stratergy.We hardly looked at a chart all day"

"It was for me mind blowing"

"A real eye opener"

See trade2win "technical analysis and system trading" Nasdaq level 2 training.

Couldn't there be something in it after all?

 

[Mr. Charts]

One of the joys of this BB is the lack of animosity. Let's keep it that way, please.
TraderPattern and Naz are sometimes so enthusiastic about L2 they could be misconstrued as being too aggressive. I don't think they are denigrating anyone else at all.
I trade the US and UK - stocks, futures and sometimes options. I too trade for a living without Nasdaq L2, BUT I think I would make greater profits using it and am learning in my own way though I might one day go to Naz for 1-2-1 training. I've never been on a course and prefer to teach myself - I admit I'm peculiar that way!
The point is I am not offended by their attitude which is an echo of the short term trading TA v. fundamentalist investor debate.
I can see that Nasdaq L2 is integral to TA, and L2 is almost micro-technical analysis. Personally I 'read' index futures on depth of market and sensing the toos and fros of buying/selling pressures and integrate that with TA. I can see that Nas L2 is a development of that with even more intellectual excitement and profit. That is what thrills TraderPattern and Naz and enthuses them - I really do not believe they are having a go at anyone else or their techniques.
Naz and TP will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong!
I do understand where stone is coming from - it's just that great enthusiasm can inadvertently antagonise.
Please keep this place cool.
Richard

 

[neil]

Level Two and others

True. There is room for all styles of trading.
Chartman - if like me you are curious about Level 2 I have seen a review on Amazon for Rogan Labiers book on Level 2 which might give useful background prior to taking any courses.

In addition I believe the Nasdaq site has material on Level 2. All this should give some background to the subject. I think cybertrader has a dummy Level 2 platform which affords an insight to what it looks like.

Then a visit to Naz could bring the strands together.

Finally I've come across reviews of several of Tony Oz's books.
Has anyone an opinion on them?

Regards

Neil

 

[waldorf]

"One of the joys of this BB is the lack of animosity. Let's keep it that way, please.
TraderPattern and Naz are sometimes so enthusiastic about L2 they could be misconstrued as being too aggressive. I don't think they are denigrating anyone else at all".

I disagree, their posts on Level 2 are both aggressive and denigrating.

It could come about, that they could teach all, about level 2, introduce this bb's readers to level 2 nasdaq trading as newbies, then take their money as well, hyperthetically of course!!

I would put a warning message on their posts, in BIG RED LETTERS, not to attempted level 2 nasdaq without expert training, its all to easy to sell the vitues of a trading style without giving the same emphasis on its drawbacks.

Col

 

[TraderPattern]

I would put a warning message on their posts, in BIG RED LETTERS, not to attempted level 2 nasdaq without expert training, its all to easy to sell the vitues of a trading style without giving the same emphasis on its drawbacks.Col

Yes, I agree with you Waldorf, with regards to your above comment. Level2 trading can wipe you out if you don't know how to avoid the tricks of the market makers and you are not well-versed in how to "take out" newbies dumb money... therein lies the opportunity ... once you have the appropriate knowledge and experience, you are no longer the dumb money and you are now my competition. As that old Latin phrase goes, "Omnia Descendo Vinces" (Knowledge Conquers All). If you don't have the ammunition, you will be destroyed by the more savvy players ... so this phrase becomes relevant "If you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen"... Trading literally is war... it's a battle for control of financial resources... I will leave you with a book recommendation .... Sun Tzu's Art of War for Traders and Investors ISBN: 0070391416 ... you won't find a single Level2 screen in that book, but you will find many pearls of wisdom.

Just for good measure, here's another saying "Ignorance breeds Fear"... ask yourself, genuinely, what kind of knowledge you currently have about Level2... if you don't have much, it is likely that you will fear it... and if you fear it, I am not surprised if your comments are negative with regards to level2.

Good trading, see you in the trenches

 

[Naz]

Well Guys having run the Nasdaq level 2 training for a Nasdaq American brokerage i think i've taught more people the subject than most in this country.I have also been shown behind the scenes in the US how their training goes on and just how it is slanted.

Let me tell you that all this fear stems from the fact that almost everyone is taught to trade Nasdaq level 2 from a scalping point of view because that in general is what the brokers want and that is still why it is easy for the more experienced trader to pick off newbies on the screen.

However i have always tried to convey to people to take their time and i have devised a slow programme to build up confidence without risking capital before entering the fray.I have also tried to point out that you dont need to be a scalper to make all this work.Think how trader pattern and myself take scalpers entries for $2 swing plays .The most successfull of my students have been the ones that have learnt the skills of the level 2 scalper and then adapted it to their own style of trading.The best example was how one made $100,000 in six weeks this year.

Trader Pattern and myself just happen to be aggressive level 2 players and for that you have to be very good at trading on the screen, other people do not have to trade in the style we do but if they understand the skills we use then they can apply it to the style that suits them.

I taught another trader who was a fantastic Nasdaq t/a player but he always felt he was lacking something because he didnt know level 2.I taught him how to read and play level 2 not for him to be a scalper but to understand what was truly going on.He carried on using the same style of trading but told me his profits increadsed by approx 30-40% because of his inderstanding of the screen an his ability to take his trades with direct access.

I say, get taught by somone like myself who is both a Nasdaq trainer and a trader and then trade it to the style that SUITS YOU don't copy most people who think that you've only got to scalp with it.

email me if you want any questions answered([email protected])

NAZ

 

[Splurge]

Set Up

Well to return this thread to its origins........

My setup is as follows:-

1st PC
Pentium III 800 with 40gb hard drive 768meg ram (3 x 256k sticks)

2 x 19" monitors, 2 x 17" monitors running of 2 matrox cards (1 agp and 1 pci)

Software
Updata trader Pro II (I know I know, but mine works fine)
Prestel citifeed (pretty crap but changing soon I hope)
Currently looking at various packages for trading US stocks mainly Nasdaq (as per NAZ training session)

ISDN through BT Openworld

2nd PC
Pentium II 400 Dell with 17" monitor 10gb hard drive 384meg ram

ISDN through BT Openworld

Used to trade through CMC and Finspreads.

Currently looking at swopping utilisation around and graphics cards no doubt when Nasdaq trading comes on line

 

[waldorf]

Fear of losing money trading Nasdaq level 2 direct, is very real indeed no one should trade without it, its the basis of survival in every type of trading.

Using stops, trading not to lose, scalping, taking what the market offers are not negative, they positive styles of trading, even in the uk markets.

I have found this aggressively worded thread, singing the virtues of direct level 2 trading, disconcerting, as it targets fellows traders for not having the guts to join level 2 nasdaq, i read somewhere that 80% of daytraders end up bankrupt.

Its a very dangerous world on the nasdaq even with expert tuition, A fool and his money are soon parted, For every winner there is a loser, Don't jump in where angels fear to tread, are apt reminders for newbies.

Regards
Col

 

[Naz]

Sometimes i feel i'm banging my head against a brick wall.........Nasdaq level 2 trading is for all people in all different trading styles and time frames.

It just so happens that its features are so good that it has been promoted as a day traders tool.It has been taught in the US to middle America as a scalping tool.Mainly because that was how the brokers benefited the most.Obviously uninformed investors who sudenly became scalpers got hurt and it therefore attracted attention.

However with complete COMMON SENSE its a tool that can help any individual.I recently talked to an individual that traded approx £50,000 worth of stock in the UK and we worked out all his costs were well over £1000 in and out.When i showed him how to trade on a level 2 Nasdaq screen his costs worked out at $30 ie £20 for trading the same amount of stock.For that person think how much he could save in a year just by using Nasdaq level 2.

If he is being hurt its trading the UK market not on the Nasdaq.If he keeps to the same style of trading to which he is acustomed to in the UK he can save a fortune every year in costs.

 

[TraderPattern]

Yup, gotta agree with ya Naz on timeframes... you can buy em and fold em within 10 seconds or after a few hours OR even overnite, if you have figured that the Ax is doing some big accumulation.

 

[waldorf]

I agree on a few indisputable points, about trading the uk markets, the spreads on the majority of share are rip-offs, but there are a few that are acceptable ranging from .06% - .08%. Stamp duty is outdated and may soon (i hope) be abolished, and that the uk open depends on the usa close.
I figured spread betting was not for me but i did fancy level 2 uk style, going off it when i realized it meant changing everything from broker to software, and initial costs were pretty high, and sitting watching prices most of the day did not appeal.
I do not use charting software anymore relying on web based charts and using ADVFN streaming to monitor stocks, it costs me nothing apart from the internet connection and of course the above.
So we will have to agree to differ with you trading at the cutting edge, and over there, with all the risks and danger that it entails. Me stumbling along, blind to all the golden opportunties i'm missing, still making a profit, and occassionally scoring an own goal.

Good luck to you all
Regards
Col