Trading from home - employment status.

[Lee Shepherd]

Wow, Gotta laugh.

It's the law of the land.

Betting is not taxable.

Great posts Lion, I'd just about given up on these people.

Hey you know what, I'm starting to believe that gambling is taxable and that I should be paying more into this great country of ours than is neccessary.

The more taxes you pay the better off the government is. The better the hospitals become for me, more police to protect me and more military to defend our great nation and allow me to sleep safe at night and trade all day.

Spread betting is taxable and you should pay your taxes. Ring up the inland revenue and tell them your going to pay them money whether they like it or not.

 

[dcetrader]

haha, i am a bank dealer, i trade stocks and futures at home in freetime.

 

[Lee Shepherd]

ehh...I'm a sewage consultant, i trade in my freetime.

Whats your post got to do with the price of coffee.

 

[LION63]

haha, i am a bank dealer, i trade stocks and futures at home in freetime.

When did spread betting become tax free in China? Many members on these boards have other occupations but does that mean that they are not good traders?

 

[new_trader]

Many members on these boards have other occupations but does that mean that they are not good traders?

What do you think?

 

[counter_violent]

S B companies I presume pay their taxes on profits...given that 95% of punters with these firms lose....someone somewhere must have figures, why would the revenue be interested in persuing individuals and all the hassle that entails, when they can simply collect at source.

 

[nkruger]

S B companies I presume pay their taxes on profits...given that 95% of punters with these firms lose....someone somewhere must have figures, why would the revenue be interested in persuing individuals and all the hassle that entails, when they can simply collect at source.

I do agree with your point CV, but I don't think it's as simple as that. They are really just city based bookies, that have an elaborate 'book' (platform) on the comings and goings of the world's financial markets. For betting to be tax free, I always understood you paid the betting tax at the time of the bet ( "£1 each way on red rum tax paid please guv'nor" ) so is it correct that the SB companies pay our betting tax out of the spread that we pay ? Might post that as a question on the Cap Spreads thread and see what Simon comes up with.

Anyway, the reason for my rant this afternoon is I've just been to my local Tax Office to have an argument about some tax I don't think I owe (from a couple of years back) While I was there, I enquired about my tax situation if I was ( "theoretically you understand, Mr Taxman" ) to have a flutter on the markets via spreadbetting and he said the same as I've been told on the phone ~ betting is not taxable ( lottery etc. ) I said "excellent" and he immediately retracted his statement and said someone would contact me in the near future to 'clarify the situation' I hasten to add, I did not tell him that would be my sole source of income, although I do have 3 properties that I rent out but the earnings from those are negligible for the next 5 years until the rents are more than double their present amount.

So still no nearer an answer.

But I did get £4500 back off the Revenue :clap:

Have a good Easter break everyone

NK

 

[counter_violent]

For betting to be tax free, I always understood you paid the betting tax at the time of the bet ( "£1 each way on red rum tax paid please guv'nor" ) so is it correct that the SB companies pay our betting tax out of the spread that we pay ? Might post that as a question on the Cap Spreads thread and see what Simon comes up with.


NK

Ah, not quite what I had in mind.

Years ago there were Two options ...placing bets and placing bets (tax paid)...tax paid option was an additional charge on top of the bet amount, with any winnings tax free.

I think that system was scrapped at the time govt decided that all betting would be tax free.

If memory serves me, govt/tax office must have decided that to simplify the system was more beneficial to them on overall tax take and administration cost.

So back to the point....if tax is taken from the S B firms on profits (not spread) then would it really be worthwhile chasing individuals around !!

:smart: Must be easier to hit a static target.:whistling

 

[timm]

For betting to be tax free, I always understood you paid the betting tax at the time of the bet ( "£1 each way on red rum tax paid please guv'nor" ) so is it correct that the SB companies pay our betting tax out of the spread that we pay ? Might post that as a question on the Cap Spreads thread and see what Simon comes up with.

Betting duty was abolished in 2001 and replaced with a tax on gross profits paid by the bookmaker. For financial spreadbets, the bookmaker pays 3% of gross profits as tax. That is why spreadbetting is tax free for the punters. 3% of all the spreadbetting losses is a much better deal for the government than trying to tax the winners.

HM Revenue & Customs: C&E 1 - General Betting Duty Abolished

 

[nkruger]

Betting duty was abolished in 2001 and replaced with a tax on gross profits paid by the bookmaker. For financial spreadbets, the bookmaker pays 3% of gross profits as tax. That is why spreadbetting is tax free for the punters. 3% of all the spreadbetting losses is a much better deal for the government than trying to tax the winners.

HM Revenue & Customs: C&E 1 - General Betting Duty Abolished

Thanks for the link Timm, I've just printed out to take with me, the next time I have to go to the Rev & Cuss. Seems fairly conclusive to me. Betting is 'Tax Free'

Thanks for your squirrelling around

 

[Lee Shepherd]

After 91 posts I think we've finally cracked it.

Hopefully this thread can now be locked and put to bed for future reference, I'm sure someone else will come along with a different story to contradict the U.K law system.

Final word: Spread betting in the U.K as an individual is not taxable by way of capital gains or income tax no matter how much you earn and over how long, full time or one bet.

 

[nkruger]

After 91 posts I think we've finally cracked it.

Not so quick Mr Shepherd....

I want a piece of paper from the Rev & Cuss that says I am not liable to pay tax on my 'winnings'. As far as I can see, that is the only way we can 'crack it'

I am going to spend the rest of the afternoon collating all the evidence from their website, and take it down to them.

As I've said before, I shall post all I can on this thread to help other successful traders !!

(You know who you are, you just haven't stuck your heads above the parapett yet

NK

 

[new_trader]

Wow, Gotta laugh.

It's the law of the land.

Betting is not taxable.

Great posts Lion, I'd just about given up on these people.

Hey you know what, I'm starting to believe that gambling is taxable and that I should be paying more into this great country of ours than is neccessary.

The more taxes you pay the better off the government is. The better the hospitals become for me, more police to protect me and more military to defend our great nation and allow me to sleep safe at night and trade all day.

Spread betting is taxable and you should pay your taxes. Ring up the inland revenue and tell them your going to pay them money whether they like it or not.

My 2¢, I really couldn't could care less either way. I am not going to spread-bet just because there is tax free benefit.

Spread-betting is for the public betting pennies because it is tax free. Professionals don't waste their time betting pennies..

 

[Lee Shepherd]

hey you, pennies are all I have to play with, well, that and my dole money.

 

[mp6140]

Mp -- How They Do It Here !

.

Anyway, the reason for my rant this afternoon is I've just been to my local Tax Office to have an argument about some tax I don't think I owe (from a couple of years back) While I was there, I enquired about my tax situation if I was ( "theoretically you understand, Mr Taxman" ) to have a flutter on the markets via spreadbetting and he said the same as I've been told on the phone ~ betting is not taxable ( lottery etc. ) I said "excellent" and he immediately retracted his statement and said someone would contact me in the near future to 'clarify the situation' I hasten to add, I did not tell him that would be my sole source of income, although I do have 3 properties that I rent out but the earnings from those are negligible for the next 5 years until the rents are more than double their present amount.

So still no nearer an answer.

NK

===============================================================
funny how things differ here in the states --- winnings from gambling are taxed, although you are allowed to write off your losses and if you elect to list yourself as a "professional gambler", you are entitled to all the deductions of any "sole proprietorship" business.

one can elect to be a "trader" in many manners --- as a LLC, a normal corporation, or pretty much any business title you choose.

While I certainly dont know the laws across the pond, you must be able to incorporate your rentals and trading into some form of business entity, taking the present losses of the rentals to offset costs and what you make from "trading" ---- if you present yourself as a "financial holding company" you have just covered yourself with the biggest and vaguest umbrella in the world, which allows you to be almost anything in the world you wish to tell your revenue people.

you can choose to become an employee of the corporation, or deal in stock or anything else the law allows at home, but there is most definitely a way to handle your situation.

Im sure you could become a "sole proprietor" of "some" type of "investing" or "financial" business and pretty much do as you wish, while paying taxes on your profit --- it would be a strange government organization that would refuse your taxes and health contributions ---- just dont mention spread betting much !

Perhaps "investment services" --- its vague enough to cover almost anything !

enjoy and trade well

mp

 

[Waterfield]

Great thread, great discussion. There's been another similar thread which has surfaced the same issue so I hope this bump will explain clearly why it isn't taxable .

 

[montmorencyt2w]

Isn't there a slight potential problem if the OP moves from "unemployed" status to "self-employed"? Will he then be ineligible for paying NI at the voluntary, unemployed rate, but have to pay according to his income? (a lot more, I think). Even though he does not have to declare an income for tax purposes (does he?), he may have to declare an income for NI purposes. There are (at least) 2 aspects to NI as I understand it: 1) It is partly a contribution for pension, sickness, unemployment, and possibly other benefits 2) It is partly a tax on income - for most employed people, the latter is the most significant part of it.

For contributions records purposes, these days you only need a 30-year contribution record to qualify for a full state pension (not sure about the other benefits).

But for the "income tax" aspects of NI, you have to go on paying NI so long as you are earning an income (above a certain threshold). I am not sure though whether it is only on taxable income (e.g. like a normal salary) though; if so then spreadbetting income may not apply, so I don't know how you/they would determine how much your NI contribution should be. It is, however, as others have said, important to keep up your contribution record if you ever hope to see a state pension (derisory though it may be), or other benefits.

UPDATE: Having spoken to someone who used to work for the Revenue, and knows a bit about NIC, apparently, self-employed people pay class 4 NIC, which is (in effect) purely an income tax as it carries no benefit value whatsoever.

I am not sure if it is possible to pay an additional contribution to secure benefits. This would be something to investigate if going down the "self-employed" route.

....googling brings up this. Seems like you pay Class 2 as well, to get your benefits, and may or may not have to pay class 4, depending on your profits:

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1073867961

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1073867963

 

[kimo'sabby]

Great thread, great discussion. There's been another similar thread which has surfaced the same issue so I hope this bump will explain clearly why it isn't taxable .

Spread betting is taxable if you run your affairs through your business account. I'm set up as a ltd co., i have various trading accounts, linked to a business bank account, it's all tied in. If i used spread betting and run it through my business it would be deemed as taxable, if i run it through my ordinary current account then it's betting. This is what my accountant tells me.