rossored
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No, I didnt say that a 22 point range was considered good. Perhaps you should read the post more clearly?
I said that extracting three profitable trades on three occassions from a 22-point range was good, in comparison to SB - you wouldn't be able to do it.
btw, liquidity on YM is far from "sheet" - that's the kind of statement that someone who doesn't trade it would make.
I said that extracting three profitable trades on three occassions from a 22-point range was good, in comparison to SB - you wouldn't be able to do it.
btw, liquidity on YM is far from "sheet" - that's the kind of statement that someone who doesn't trade it would make.
>>I said that extracting three profitable trades on three occassions from a 22-point range was good, in >>comparison to SB - you wouldn't be able to do it.
same difference.
and yes , I still think bid - 7 x ask - 5 is sheet liquidity . I would only accept a minimum of 10-12 size per bids. but if you are trading 1 lot then I guess it doesn't matter.
I must add also I have indeed done the dow eminis , and I don't like it , I think it's overrated . the problem lies in fact that most traders ( are in US ) and they still prefer the SP eminis .
same difference.
and yes , I still think bid - 7 x ask - 5 is sheet liquidity . I would only accept a minimum of 10-12 size per bids. but if you are trading 1 lot then I guess it doesn't matter.
I must add also I have indeed done the dow eminis , and I don't like it , I think it's overrated . the problem lies in fact that most traders ( are in US ) and they still prefer the SP eminis .
bluetipex
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rossored said:
It just goes to shop that in trading there are MANY ways to skin a cat!!
I day trade the DOW using DEAL4FREE spreadbetting platform, and I'm very happy. I can assure you, extracting 3 profitable trades in a 22 point spread is entirely possible. Don't forget, the spread on this instrument is now only 4 points.
I can see from the various views expressed on this thread that it really is just a case of finding what works for you. Spreadbetting the DOW using D4F works fine for me. I must say however, that it does depend on the platform you use. It wouldn't work using Tradindex for example, as their cash spread is 7 points and the platform is pretty terrible. Slow and cumbersome. Tradindex is better suited to swing trading.
fhb22266
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I put on a trade to go long on todays DOW at 10611 (slightly too early but set my stop at 10598), price went up to 10636 and I managed to get out at 10622 which gave me a 11 point gain. Not much eh? Finspreads is pretty gready I reckon and their trading platform has an uncanny ability to crash out on me when I'm in the thick of the action (yesterdays fall at 14:45). So I've decided to close my Finspreads account soon and try Deal4Free. I did look at the threads concerning D4F and it seems they're not without their problems either but I'm willing to take a risk for a reduced spread. Ultimately though, I think I will change over to a direct access broker, but I may keep an SB account for longer term trades.
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Just for info,
as I have given Capital Spreads enough grief lately via their own thread, you might consider them for the DOW - the spread currently showing is 10577-10582, which at 5 pts is a wee bit higher than D4F, but they're a very good company to deal with, and virtually every query about 'how did that happen' has been answered to my hyper critical satisfaction - I'd rather pay an extra 1c on the spread and have an extremely reliable platform, which I am pleased to say I've found it.... it's not quite 4 pts maybe , fhb, but it's worth 1pt for reliabilty I think.
as I have given Capital Spreads enough grief lately via their own thread, you might consider them for the DOW - the spread currently showing is 10577-10582, which at 5 pts is a wee bit higher than D4F, but they're a very good company to deal with, and virtually every query about 'how did that happen' has been answered to my hyper critical satisfaction - I'd rather pay an extra 1c on the spread and have an extremely reliable platform, which I am pleased to say I've found it.... it's not quite 4 pts maybe , fhb, but it's worth 1pt for reliabilty I think.
I think Rossord made some good points, the YM contract is hitting new volume highs almost on a monthly basis.
I did a little exercise today when I had a few minutes trading the YM futures contract, the trades are below.
There was one 1.824pt loser and 18 winners, that is a 94.7 win rate, nothing clever about that as traders scalp the Dow dialy in the pits of the CBOT.
If these trades were made with a Spreadbetting company with a 5 pt spread there would have been just two 2 point winners, 4 flat trades and 13 losers. I know which one I prefer.
The fact is if you make just 1 $5 trade per day over say 220 trading days per year and save just 3 points trading futures, this will save you $3,300 . Why people would want to throw this amount of money away on every $5 traded is beyond me.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=12753&stc=1
I did a little exercise today when I had a few minutes trading the YM futures contract, the trades are below.
There was one 1.824pt loser and 18 winners, that is a 94.7 win rate, nothing clever about that as traders scalp the Dow dialy in the pits of the CBOT.
If these trades were made with a Spreadbetting company with a 5 pt spread there would have been just two 2 point winners, 4 flat trades and 13 losers. I know which one I prefer.
The fact is if you make just 1 $5 trade per day over say 220 trading days per year and save just 3 points trading futures, this will save you $3,300 . Why people would want to throw this amount of money away on every $5 traded is beyond me.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=12753&stc=1
Attachments
>>There was one 1.824pt loser and 18 winners, that is a 94.7 win rate, nothing clever about that as >>traders scalp the Dow dialy in the pits of the CBOT.
18 winners ? don't mean a thing . how many tics did these 18 winners make ? if the comms are 1 tic per round turn , and your average for these " 18 winners " is say 3 tics , your net gain is 36 tics before expenses and tax.
pretty poor for a so many trades .
I'd rather have one 120 tic winner and ten 3 tic losers , for a net 90 tic gain instead of all these piddly patty pseudo scalping stuff.
the devil is in the detail that's what most people don't realise.
>>The fact is if you make just 1 $5 trade per day over say 220 trading days per year and save just 3 points >>trading futures, this will save you $3,300 . Why people would want to throw this amount of money away >>on every $5 traded is beyond me.
this is an illusion , how can you cash in on this " saving " when doing the pseudo scalp , since the net tic gains are so low ?
if one goes for the big wins and not the PS method , then this lost " saving " becomes bogus , as you may be losing saying 15 tics on the spread , but gain net 90 tics for the day .
bigger gains , less work , less stress , smarter trading all round.
I know which one I'd rather have
18 winners ? don't mean a thing . how many tics did these 18 winners make ? if the comms are 1 tic per round turn , and your average for these " 18 winners " is say 3 tics , your net gain is 36 tics before expenses and tax.
pretty poor for a so many trades .
I'd rather have one 120 tic winner and ten 3 tic losers , for a net 90 tic gain instead of all these piddly patty pseudo scalping stuff.
the devil is in the detail that's what most people don't realise.
>>The fact is if you make just 1 $5 trade per day over say 220 trading days per year and save just 3 points >>trading futures, this will save you $3,300 . Why people would want to throw this amount of money away >>on every $5 traded is beyond me.
this is an illusion , how can you cash in on this " saving " when doing the pseudo scalp , since the net tic gains are so low ?
if one goes for the big wins and not the PS method , then this lost " saving " becomes bogus , as you may be losing saying 15 tics on the spread , but gain net 90 tics for the day .
bigger gains , less work , less stress , smarter trading all round.
I know which one I'd rather have
Missing the point as usual Wiseguy
There are 2 points, firstly there was a 46 net gain over the 19 trades trading futures, if you made exactly the same trades via spreadbetting it would have resulted in a 31point net loss.
Secondly, it does not matter if you make 5pts, 50pts or 500pts per trade, you will still save at least 3 points per trade, which is $15 per $5 contract, if you trade 10 contracts this is a $150 saving per trade.
The title of this thread is "To spread or not to spread" and IMO you are much better off trading futures.
Not only because the costs which eat into your profits are less, but also as 95% of traders actually lose money, by trading futures they will be able to claim back tax on their losses.
If you think something I have said is wrong, please show your last 19 trades and how they are better than futures.
There are 2 points, firstly there was a 46 net gain over the 19 trades trading futures, if you made exactly the same trades via spreadbetting it would have resulted in a 31point net loss.
Secondly, it does not matter if you make 5pts, 50pts or 500pts per trade, you will still save at least 3 points per trade, which is $15 per $5 contract, if you trade 10 contracts this is a $150 saving per trade.
The title of this thread is "To spread or not to spread" and IMO you are much better off trading futures.
Not only because the costs which eat into your profits are less, but also as 95% of traders actually lose money, by trading futures they will be able to claim back tax on their losses.
If you think something I have said is wrong, please show your last 19 trades and how they are better than futures.
fhb22266
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Yes I tend to agree with JB. It's really starting to frustrate me now. Take today on the Dow, I went short on the first drop at about 10630 (real price according to e-Signal) but my finspread account was showing that I was 7 points away from break even because not only do we have the spread but they also alter the price to their advantage by several points. This was pointed out by Racer at the beginning of this thread. Now I didn't know this until very recently so it's not surprising that I've lost quite a bit from my original trading capital, mainly due to my own inexperience at interpreting the charts (this is now the forth week since I started), but not realising how much the system is set against us. Perhaps this is a major reason why so many people fail and give up?
If SB companies used real prices but added extra points to the spread at least you would know where you are in a trade, but as it is it takes a certain amount of guess work. Again taking todays Dow as an example I realised that there would be some support at 10600 so I set my stop at 10598 going long just before it reached the bottom. If I'd taken Finspreads quote I would have been stopped out too early. So now I always tick the 'Use market price' box which ensures I know what price I'm getting. Perhaps it's possible to see Finspreads prices in realtime plotted against the market ? I suspect not.
Do all the SB firms run their own prices or do some use the actual market prices? I'd be interested to know.
Thanks DaveJB, I'll investigate Capital. I'm just trying out D4F trial to see if their software is better than Finspreads slow Java platform - can't understand why they use an embedded Java applet, anything less than a broadband connection will be too slow. A downloadable application with a data connection is far superior for the internet.
If SB companies used real prices but added extra points to the spread at least you would know where you are in a trade, but as it is it takes a certain amount of guess work. Again taking todays Dow as an example I realised that there would be some support at 10600 so I set my stop at 10598 going long just before it reached the bottom. If I'd taken Finspreads quote I would have been stopped out too early. So now I always tick the 'Use market price' box which ensures I know what price I'm getting. Perhaps it's possible to see Finspreads prices in realtime plotted against the market ? I suspect not.
Do all the SB firms run their own prices or do some use the actual market prices? I'd be interested to know.
Thanks DaveJB, I'll investigate Capital. I'm just trying out D4F trial to see if their software is better than Finspreads slow Java platform - can't understand why they use an embedded Java applet, anything less than a broadband connection will be too slow. A downloadable application with a data connection is far superior for the internet.
>>There are 2 points, firstly there was a 46 net gain over the 19 trades trading futures, if you made exactly >>the same trades via spreadbetting it would have resulted in a 31point net loss.
nonsense . these figures flatter to deceive .
what about costs ? your comms ? sofware costs ? these are detract from your bottom line.
>>Secondly, it does not matter if you make 5pts, 50pts or 500pts per trade, you will still save at least 3 >.points per trade, which is $15 per $5 contract, if you trade 10 contracts this is a $150 saving per trade.
it does matter and you conveniently leave out the most important number of all , and that is the Return to Risk figure.
if I can make 175 pts and my so called costs is 4 pts , why do I care about a piddley 4 pts spread . that only matters when you are making eqully piddly 4 pt profit .
the PS way greatly reduces your overall R: R . why would I want that ? what you don't understand is that your costs have a direct relation to the method you chose.
31 point loss = copy & paste :
if one goes for the big wins and not the PS method , then this lost " saving " becomes bogus , as you may be losing saying 15 tics on the spread , but gain net 90 tics for the day .
>>The title of this thread is "To spread or not to spread" and IMO you are much better off trading futures.
to which I will add : there are other benefits to SBs so far unsaid , for example - the ability to enter and exit trades OUTSIDE of market hours. can't do that on regular futures.
very important , you can take the market by surprise this way - see my thread "remember , remember ".
and then there is free credit - very useful.
>>Not only because the costs which eat into your profits are less, but also as 95% of traders actually lose >>money, by trading futures they will be able to claim back tax on their losses.
95% is not right , the majority lose but the figure is not correct . there would be very few SB customers if that were so , there are around 60k + and growing.
taxes are taxes , you surely are not implying that that you can claim back more than you PAY ! it's still a cost and a big one.
HAHA .
>>If you think something I have said is wrong, please show your last 19 trades and how they are better >>than futures.
19 trades don't mean nothing . show me :
1) your comms per round turn.
2) your other trading expenses
3) you complete NET profits ( not some BS pre tax sheet ) over a year and what your intitial capital at risk was.
the we 'll see.
and yes I will show you my record for over a 2 year period , if you know how to attach yahoo mails .
I bet you won't .
oh, I never said Sb is better than futures , both have their pros and cons. But what I will say is that the method used is the biggest determinant of succes not if you use futures or SB.
nonsense . these figures flatter to deceive .
what about costs ? your comms ? sofware costs ? these are detract from your bottom line.
>>Secondly, it does not matter if you make 5pts, 50pts or 500pts per trade, you will still save at least 3 >.points per trade, which is $15 per $5 contract, if you trade 10 contracts this is a $150 saving per trade.
it does matter and you conveniently leave out the most important number of all , and that is the Return to Risk figure.
if I can make 175 pts and my so called costs is 4 pts , why do I care about a piddley 4 pts spread . that only matters when you are making eqully piddly 4 pt profit .
the PS way greatly reduces your overall R: R . why would I want that ? what you don't understand is that your costs have a direct relation to the method you chose.
31 point loss = copy & paste :
if one goes for the big wins and not the PS method , then this lost " saving " becomes bogus , as you may be losing saying 15 tics on the spread , but gain net 90 tics for the day .
>>The title of this thread is "To spread or not to spread" and IMO you are much better off trading futures.
to which I will add : there are other benefits to SBs so far unsaid , for example - the ability to enter and exit trades OUTSIDE of market hours. can't do that on regular futures.
very important , you can take the market by surprise this way - see my thread "remember , remember ".
and then there is free credit - very useful.
>>Not only because the costs which eat into your profits are less, but also as 95% of traders actually lose >>money, by trading futures they will be able to claim back tax on their losses.
95% is not right , the majority lose but the figure is not correct . there would be very few SB customers if that were so , there are around 60k + and growing.
taxes are taxes , you surely are not implying that that you can claim back more than you PAY ! it's still a cost and a big one.
HAHA .
>>If you think something I have said is wrong, please show your last 19 trades and how they are better >>than futures.
19 trades don't mean nothing . show me :
1) your comms per round turn.
2) your other trading expenses
3) you complete NET profits ( not some BS pre tax sheet ) over a year and what your intitial capital at risk was.
the we 'll see.
and yes I will show you my record for over a 2 year period , if you know how to attach yahoo mails .
I bet you won't .
oh, I never said Sb is better than futures , both have their pros and cons. But what I will say is that the method used is the biggest determinant of succes not if you use futures or SB.
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rossored
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wisestguy said:
Ooops, wrong again, WG.
As we seem to be talking quite a lot about YM, you can in fact trade this out of "normal hours", assuming you have the margin. Granted, the liquidity is "sheet" (as you're so fond of saying), but its there. Out of hours, even a little player like me can move the market with a couple of contracts. Someone I know who trades NQ regularly trades that contract pre-market-open, and does well out of it, and there were several opportunities last week when shorting the 0830EST news would have bagged you a bunch of points pre-open.
Racer
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I personally think this is too close to the (round number effect) support, price will frequently overshoot this, 2 points is not enough .. spreadbetters will often move several points away from this level 'in anticipation' of the next move and then pull it back again very quickly.. spike in other words and that triggers a lot of stops!
Racer
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Some time ago I compared Fins and d4f, I found the daily on d4f tended to move in jumps compared to fins which was a lot more 'linked' to the actual price of the Dow.
My conclusion was that the small spread with d4f was not in fact as good as it first appeared when you compared the two companies quotes!
fhb22266
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Racer said:
Okay, I'm getting the message now, D4F may not be such a good alternative to Finspreads. What's your take on Capitalspreads? Most people seem to rate them very highly. At least they have a represntative who frequents this forum, so we can give him a grilling!
danfreek
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I've been using capital spreads for the last few months and have been very pleased with them. They even didn't trigger a stop on a price spike in their data as the quote was only on the screen for about a second, so they don't spike their prices just to take out stops. I can't speak for any of the other companies on that issue though.
rossored said:
NO , I am right with regards to the markets I trade ( Dax , Cac , Dow ) . you can only trade globex products 24 / 7 , and not other like the ones I do.
also , as you said liquidity is a problem and only a fool would risk his money in such illiquid markets.
with SB's , the only way a market will move is if a lot of punters buy / sell in large amounts, which would be rare. so you can position yourself / anticipate ahead of the market .
you best search thread " remember , remember " to see how I use this , rather than guessing what I do.
