The pipe of peace... Shed Hate Not Blood

[Legion]

War why is it needed? surely with all the advancement in modern mans thinking n all, how come war is still on the planet?

what are the alternatives? can anyone EVER see a time when humans no longer engage in it?

if everyone is eduacted (ok and this may take a few thousand years) to know that war, violence to kill etc is unacceptable then will this not be better for life on earth?


whats the sticking points?

can we not condition the human condition en mass that still finds war o.k. to change ?

How long would it take for a country to completely shed itself of WAR? Can it be achieved in 40 years? LOL, 100 then?

Do you think it wil never happen? o.k. think what needs to happen for the idea to happen globally.

 

[roguetrader]

A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly, he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river.

The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me, and I'll drown."

The scorpion assured him, "If I do that, we'll both drown."

The fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him. As poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and said, "Why did you do that? Now you'll drown, too."

"I couldn't help it," said the scorpion. "It's my nature."

 

[Legion]

Yes nature of man, thats the rub, at the core I think its compassion and perhaps its guiding to see it?

 

[Legion]

hmm not only that but perhaps man has or is beginning to evolve and step outside and look at his nature with the option to choose to evolve further? Are we not sentient beings(unlike scorpions which i'd say is a mismatching error), therefore enabling to perceive alternative ways to live, and actioning to bring that into being?

Ask anyone do they want to kill, a man, woman, who are sons and daughters and who may have their own sons and daughters or live life and nurture peace towards them I'd suspect the overwhelming majority would say peace please.

so it seems man even now has a choice, so why aint we choosing peace? whats wrong?

 

[Merstocks]

I think that we already have the right to choose. Just encourage people that its ok to choose Peace and Love. Also maybe educate them on the benefits of these.

 

[peto]

-Ronald Reagan, Address to the Nation and Other Countries on United States-Soviet Relations, January 16, 1984
" Just suppose with me for a moment that an Ivan and an Anya could find themselves, oh, say, in a waiting room, or sharing a shelter from the rain or a storm with a Jim and Sally, and there was no language barrier to keep them from getting acquainted. Would they then debate the differences between their respective governments? Or would they find themselves comparing notes about their children and what each other did for a living? Before they parted company, they would probably have touched on ambitions and hobbies and what they wanted for their children and problems of making ends meet. And as they went their separate ways, maybe Anya would be saying to Ivan, "Wasn't she nice? She also teaches music.'' Or Jim would be telling Sally what Ivan did or didn't like about his boss. They might even have decided they were all going to get together for dinner some evening soon. Above all, they would have proven that people don't make wars. People want to raise their children in a world without fear and without war. They want to have some of the good things over and above bare subsistence that make life worth living. They want to work at some craft, trade, or profession that gives them satisfaction and a sense of worth. Their common interests cross all borders. "

 

[trendie]

people are afraid of the truth. the truth that they may be mediocre, talentless, average, inconsequentual.

they envy those who are (perceived to be) better, in whatever way, be it intellectually, materially, or physically.

they do not possess the insight or capacity to accept themselves and their weaknesses, and feel the need to place any blame outside of themselves.

this manifests itself such as anger at ones own inabilities expressed as envy at others talents.

very few admit to these weaknesses.
(yet, its acceptance of these frailties that is the start of the great journey of self-discovery and development that you could embark upon.)

politics is an ideal mechanism to express this self-hatred and self-loathing by projecting it onto others.

its the human condition. whatever that is.

EDIT: didnt see petos post above: is this the same Ronnie ("we start bombing in ten minutes" caught in an off-guard moment during a mike-check / dropped bombs on Libya resulting in the deaths of Col Gaddafis children / supported Contras in Nicaragua) Reagan that called Ivan and Anya collectively the Evil Empire ?

 

[Legion]

Love is a biggy merstocks, we are asking for people to choose something that to the most is very diffcult to define.

I can see that for this whole change to come about then it has to start with each individual Loving themselves. It has to be how can people love or show love towards (if indeed it can be measured ) another if they at first do not love themselves?

I mean if they did accept (is it not a gift already given at our centre?, if not then choose love maybe) love then their whole output and interaction with their external nature would change in a flash would it not? No longer would they want to do harm to others as in doing so it would be harming or punishing themselves and this (because they love themselves for who they are) goes against love for the self individual.

Love is non physical hmmm,

hmmm yeah maybe it is Love of Individual self, enables you to sacrifice yourself at some point when being/ showing compassion towards others (as their needs ,you choose, may override yours in the act maybe) hence technically you may dent your own love on a temp basis , already im heading towards with these few lines ,suffering,acceptance,attachments.

But agree the start, and its only a small one in the scheme would be for people to love themselves in order to love fellow man . This love of self will simply not allow people to damage other people (as easily? I say easily allowing for anyone may have a total flip point under the right conditions, a few will not but generalising here)

So is it fair to assume that people dislike, dont love themselves, just never even thought of it before and hate themselves? This may then lead to a cycle of some sort of continual guilt conflicts? Intermittent rewards for themselves but then guilt and so they punish themselves, because they do not Love themselves and they may then displace this negativity of self on poeple (targets) to damage them ,hopefully in order to be amongst their own kind by trying to reduce self lovers to become unloving beings ?

Is this the planetary cycle of human life now?

And what about when people are conditioned to not love themselves?

Greif what task is there to be done, LOL.

 

[peto]

is this the same Ronnie ("we start bombing in ten minutes" caught in an off-guard moment during a mike-check / dropped bombs on Libya resulting in the deaths of Col Gaddafis children / supported Contras in Nicaragua) Reagan that called Ivan and Anya collectively the Evil Empire ?

That'll be the one...
Now you've ruined the warm fuzzy feeling this thread was working up to...

Mankind struggles along with a brain which is 99% wired up for living in trees, dealing with sabre-toothed tigers, and protecting our bit of the forest from that hairy rabble in the next valley that have their eye on our bit of clean river now their watering hole has dried up, not to mention our women. Evolving an new improved brain takes millions of years. Probably in man's case evolution is now working backwards anyway, as we protect the weak and encourage their survival and breeding. Another thread was recently discussing the supposed Singularity in technology that is scheduled to hit us in the next 2 or 3 decades. The consequent merging of Artificial Intelligence with our own brains to make us a bit brighter seems the only way forward if we are to work out a better future.

 

[SOCRATES]

That'll be the one...
Now you've ruined the warm fuzzy feeling this thread was working up to...

Mankind struggles along with a brain which is 99% wired up for living in trees, dealing with sabre-toothed tigers, and protecting our bit of the forest from that hairy rabble in the next valley that have their eye on our bit of clean river now their watering hole has dried up, not to mention our women. Evolving an new improved brain takes millions of years. Probably in man's case evolution is now working backwards anyway, as we protect the weak and encourage their survival and breeding. Another thread was recently discussing the supposed Singularity in technology that is scheduled to hit us in the next 2 or 3 decades. The consequent merging of Artificial Intelligence with our own brains to make us a bit brighter seems the only way forward if we are to work out a better future.

Really ?

What if it is a cruel joke designed to herd public perception in one direction of a perfect Utopia but in reality is camouflage for futher dumbing down and enslavement of peoples ?

Have you considered that possibility ?

 

[SOCRATES]

people are afraid of the truth. the truth that they may be mediocre, talentless, average, inconsequentual.

they envy those who are (perceived to be) better, in whatever way, be it intellectually, materially, or physically.

they do not possess the insight or capacity to accept themselves and their weaknesses, and feel the need to place any blame outside of themselves.

this manifests itself such as anger at ones own inabilities expressed as envy at others talents.

very few admit to these weaknesses.
(yet, its acceptance of these frailties that is the start of the great journey of self-discovery and development that you could embark upon.)

politics is an ideal mechanism to express this self-hatred and self-loathing by projecting it onto others.

its the human condition. whatever that is.

EDIT: didnt see petos post above: is this the same Ronnie ("we start bombing in ten minutes" caught in an off-guard moment during a mike-check / dropped bombs on Libya resulting in the deaths of Col Gaddafis children / supported Contras in Nicaragua) Reagan that called Ivan and Anya collectively the Evil Empire ?

Thank you for posting this..:cheesy:

 

[Legion]

-Ronald Reagan, Address to the Nation and Other Countries on United States-Soviet Relations, January 16, 1984
" Just suppose with me for a moment that an Ivan and an Anya could find themselves, oh, say, in a waiting room, or sharing a shelter from the rain or a storm with a Jim and Sally, and there was no language barrier to keep them from getting acquainted. Would they then debate the differences between their respective governments? Or would they find themselves comparing notes about their children and what each other did for a living? Before they parted company, they would probably have touched on ambitions and hobbies and what they wanted for their children and problems of making ends meet. And as they went their separate ways, maybe Anya would be saying to Ivan, "Wasn't she nice? She also teaches music.'' Or Jim would be telling Sally what Ivan did or didn't like about his boss. They might even have decided they were all going to get together for dinner some evening soon. Above all, they would have proven that people don't make wars. People want to raise their children in a world without fear and without war. They want to have some of the good things over and above bare subsistence that make life worth living. They want to work at some craft, trade, or profession that gives them satisfaction and a sense of worth. Their common interests cross all borders. "

Nice one, and the internet allows the reach across the world..... I remember speaking to a young lady from romania about 8 years ago on the net and because im into food, asked for a good recipe she said.

"well my mum cooks a chicken in the oven, she place it on a bottle so the chicken is inserted into it, the chicken is stuffed with garlic under its skin into the flesh. Rub salt onto chickens skin .You then put the chicken on a roasting tin and put some water in the bottom cook this until its done "

(typically 90 -100 mins if anyones interested) You then get one hell of a juicy tasting chicken, moist Beyond Bedroom and Bath standards.

Now aint that cool ? I think so lol im trying to get my daughters health visotors best family recipe (shes from tibbet, and still goes to the mountains to give health aid education every year).

I think with me, food is one of a very few things left for man to try and form some sort of bond with fellow man, even within their own families, that socialness of it, apart from skanking great recipes to aid ones own collection of course.

Yet here now in todays time, food needs to be fast, microwaved etc, the guts of simple food , cooking it sharing it the whole thing is being wiped out almost. Kids today are being given values of old even further watered down. Not good.

Anyone see the river cottage treatment? A woman on there had got quite emotional because she cooked a meal for the first time in 12 years on the show with others and found that part of herself again. Previous to that she was slam dunkin micro meals and being TOLD its fast , convenient and only 235 calories per 100 grammes, I expect

So nice one ronnie, wonder what his familes best recipe was...

 

[Legion]

people are afraid of the truth. the truth that they may be mediocre, talentless, average, inconsequentual.

they envy those who are (perceived to be) better, in whatever way, be it intellectually, materially, or physically.

they do not possess the insight or capacity to accept themselves and their weaknesses, and feel the need to place any blame outside of themselves.

this manifests itself such as anger at ones own inabilities expressed as envy at others talents.

very few admit to these weaknesses.
(yet, its acceptance of these frailties that is the start of the great journey of self-discovery and development that you could embark upon.)

politics is an ideal mechanism to express this self-hatred and self-loathing by projecting it onto others.

its the human condition. whatever that is.

EDIT: didnt see petos post above: is this the same Ronnie ("we start bombing in ten minutes" caught in an off-guard moment during a mike-check / dropped bombs on Libya resulting in the deaths of Col Gaddafis children / supported Contras in Nicaragua) Reagan that called Ivan and Anya collectively the Evil Empire ?

The very fact they are aware they are Human should make them know they are beyond consequential ,life is a gift ,isnt it an important one? Therefore all humans are important ? Do too many not see this, that they have, are this?

 

[peto]

Nice one, and the internet allows the reach across the world..... I remember speaking to a young lady from Rumania about 8 years ago on the net ...chicken is stuffed with garlic....

Making me feel hungry now...
The Internet should be a positive force in all this. If Ivan and Jim can talk to each other and confirm that the other doesn't eat their own children or whatever they've been told, then maybe they can muster the political pressure on their leaders in time, before the bombs are dropped. It's a nice theory, although the Palestinians and Israelis for example have the technology but not the understanding. Even with a common language the various factions in Iraq, N Ireland et al don't 'get it'.

Really ?

What if it is a cruel joke designed to herd public perception in one direction of a perfect Utopia but in reality is camouflage for futher dumbing down and enslavement of peoples ?

Have you considered that possibility ?

"It" isn't anything yet is it? The exponential growth of technology over the last 500 years cannot be denied, even if 'Singularity' is too strong a term for what is yet to come. Unless you consider that the video games and soaps of our new generation is the precursor, a sinister ensnarement into a bleak future where the living of virtual reality utopias in simulators keeps the masses under the thumb and unaware, while the Masters concentrate on taking over the world. (wow, must write a novel, quick).

politics is an ideal mechanism to express this self-hatred and self-loathing by projecting it onto others.

its the human condition. whatever that is.

Interesting idea. Probably about right.

 

[Merstocks]

Legion thats a very profound response (the one about love) .

I think people are conditioned to feel anger and hate by their surroundings and emotional environment. For example if you grow up in violent surroundings you will only KNOW anger and resentment and thus consider it as a reasonable response to the anger of others. I think Television has alot to do with it. I mean how often do you see programmes where kids blame and hate their parents ? Where adults solve problems by violence and they are made into heroes ? Where everything is superficial and easy ?

On the issue of a planetary cycle of human life. Yes there can be a cycle that excludes love in which people exist totally unaware of other cycles (lives). Therefore Love must introduced to that cycle. Or else the circle broken and a new one of Love and Peace being created. And it is easiest to start with loving yourself, although not in a materialistic way. Then you can begin to love others, or even show them kindness. It will become easy because the darkness that hate surrounds you with will disappear.

But it doesn't stop with you, I think you need to encourage and educate people. That is how you can influence another cycle/life. That is a challenge and most likely it will appear to be unrewarding in the begining, but in the long run it will pay off because people will see the value of what you are saying.

So take the first step and lead by example, or rather continue as your response suggests that you are already well on the way.


To Peto,

If mankind uses only 10% of its brains shouldn't we first concern ourselves with enlightenment before turning ourselves into the Borg (see star trek the next generation?) It seems like a defeatist attitude that you present.

 

[peto]

To Peto,

If mankind uses only 10% of its brains shouldn't we first concern ourselves with enlightenment before turning ourselves into the Borg (see star trek the next generation?) It seems like a defeatist attitude that you present.

Not defeatist, realist, optimist maybe. Hey I done warm and fuzzy on post 6 above....trendie didn't like it and I don't blame him. Love and human kindness is great and it works some of the time. But it's been preached for thousands of years by thousands of great guys and still we have genocides and wars every decade, nothing changes.

I am looking ahead just 2 or 3 decades, a blink in time, and seeing a near certainty of change, for better or worse, who knows, but change for sure.

 

[trendie]

Not defeatist, realist, optimist maybe. Hey I done warm and fuzzy on post 6 above....trendie didn't like it and I don't blame him. Love and human kindness is great and it works some of the time. But it's been preached for thousands of years by thousands of great guys and still we have genocides and wars every decade, nothing changes.

I am looking ahead just 2 or 3 decades, a blink in time, and seeing a near certainty of change, for better or worse, who knows, but change for sure.

sorry for my knee-jerk, sarcastic, side-swipe at your initial post, peto!
( its a habit I got from watching too many episodes of "Have I Got News For You", and "Mock The Week". Yes, I am blaming television! ))
It wasnt that I didnt like it, it was just that the speech that you quoted, full of heart-warming views, and folksy, homespun wisdom was at odds at the reality of what this man was involved in. (squandering billions on star-wars technology, undermining Central American governments, training the Afghan mujhadeen to ambush russian soldiers ( arent they the same as the taliban, - wow, was that one humdinger that came back to bite americas ass - US troops being killed by american-trained fighters !! ), and stuff. )

In fact, I am, as you are, an optimist - perhaps a bit more bleary-eyed.

Of all the various threads on similar issues, I think I have been fairly consistent with my essentially humanistic views.
I am one of those "bleeding-heart liberals" that has the audacity to think of other people as humans, even if they are brought up in different countries and different cultures, and should be accorded equal respect. This cannot be achieved by cluster-bombs.
I believe you believe this too.

I dont tar all people of a certain view with the same brush, anymore that I believe that all american policeman are fascist sadists because of the actions of one moron who knelt on the neck of a man who was handcuffed, and then proceeded to punch him in the face several times.

I believe in love, ambition, curiosity about the world and universe,and self-actualisation - all the things Legion and yourself have expressed.

My concern is that people, in general, do not have the ability, or willingness, because it means hard work, and accepting responsibility for the end results.

Its so much easier to take it out on others.

 

[peto]

sorry

No apology nec, I was amused and usefully reminded. Private Eye ran a long series of cartoons entitled "where's the president's brain?" at the time, with the guy chasing around after a walnut-sized object.... Had a good speech-writer though :cheesy: Come to think of it most of these modern u.s. presidents are not really shining examples of how democracy works to choose the brightest and the best...

I believe in love, ambition, curiosity about the world and universe,and self-actualisation - all the things Legion and yourself have expressed.

Maybe all we can do is apply that philosophy to our small corners of the world in the hope of seeing the ripples spread out a little, maybe join up with others to form a wave of change.

My concern is that people, in general, do not have the ability, or willingness, because it means hard work, and accepting responsibility for the end results.
Its so much easier to take it out on others.

Bit like trading then!
jonnyy40's chilling signature line is a quote from Goering "''Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." This was his reply to the claim that in a democracy the Leaders have to listen to the wishes of the people who, he agreed, don't want war.

BTW shouldn't your signature line read "10" not "ten" ??? nice one

 

[Merstocks]

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Interesting quote Peto. I wonder who else other than Goering might have used that philosophy ? And if in its current usage it hasn't worked too well. Because the people are also led by the media. They don't have one clear leader.

By the way I too think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next few decades. Certainly it doesn't look good. And maybe thats because man has lost the run of himself. This is why I think we need to turn back to books, strict domestic discipline, greater accountability across the board, get people into full time employment in trouble spots or just everywhere, and of course that Love word.

I hope in the meantime we don't lose sight of the value of human life that certain forms of science seem to degrade for "research" and "technological advance".

Perhaps a little too philosophical. Still I'd rather live in the comfort a daydream than be a slave to discontent.