You can't know wrong if you don't know right. It seems like you have to know more wrong (time consuming) to know the right (wisdom).
The fate of a trader
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You can't know wrong if you don't know right. It seems like you have to know more wrong (time consuming) to know the right (wisdom).
jiggly
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As you mention you are still demo trading, you are new, you dont know what you dont know.
for you to even make big money, or any money for that matter, being good in this business is not good enough,
you need to be head and shoulders above the rest, and that is where the fate of a trader lies.
come back to this thread in 3 years, if you are still involved, as i have mentioned, take stock of what the more knowledgable heads here are saying, they are not talking out of their backsides, every newbie after reading a few books and opening a demo account thinks they know what they are talking about, and just like you.
but you are falling into the very trap that this discussion is revolving around...not to sound condiscending or to be-little you, but you know sh*t, and I say that with all due respect.
regards
jiggly
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enough respect to you sir,
trader_dante
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Just wanted to say that contrary to what people are thinking (from my pm's and reps) I'm not having a nervous breakdown 
I just suddenly got thinking about the price we all pay in this business. It's never as black and white as money gained or lost.
If you are £1m up in the last five years, the monetary gain may have been offset by personal losses to achieve that gain.
On the reverse, if you are £5,000 down, it may not be as simple as: "well, I tried and the net result was a £5k loss." You may be able to say: "well I tried something I was always interested in - I learnt alot about myself in the process and I met some great people". So the monetary loss was offset by personal gain.
Just thinking about the business of trading beyond that of financial loss or gain.
I just suddenly got thinking about the price we all pay in this business. It's never as black and white as money gained or lost.
If you are £1m up in the last five years, the monetary gain may have been offset by personal losses to achieve that gain.
On the reverse, if you are £5,000 down, it may not be as simple as: "well, I tried and the net result was a £5k loss." You may be able to say: "well I tried something I was always interested in - I learnt alot about myself in the process and I met some great people". So the monetary loss was offset by personal gain.
Just thinking about the business of trading beyond that of financial loss or gain.
Therein lies the problem; whether losses and gains are financial or other, they are all personal. Trading is a solitary pursuit, the rewards of your achievements can rarely be shared equally among others - the result of "taking care of #1" is that #1 might be all you end up with.
trader_dante
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Another quote from Niederhoffers "Education of a Speculator". In this excerpt, he discusses the similarities between turf betting (horse racing) and that of trading. This passage rings very true:
Many view the business of turf speculation as the embodiment of the easy life. According to the naive, perpetual losers, those who are fortunate enough to consistently draw an income by betting on the races have been issued a licence by the racing gods to make money without ever been forced to do any real work.
What the public doesn't realise is that a professional horse racing analyst generally spends 16 hours a day going to the racetrack, compiling statistics, and watching videos for trip information, not to mention poring through all of the available information on the day's entrants and establishing a theoretical value for each of the starters. Most would consider such behaviour obsessive, but it's a game where only a few can survive, financial disaster looms boldy, and the margin for error is slim. There is always an up-and-coming gunslinger, faster and better than his predecessor, armed with the newest technology, and educated by all of those who have come before him lurking in the wings.
Many view the business of turf speculation as the embodiment of the easy life. According to the naive, perpetual losers, those who are fortunate enough to consistently draw an income by betting on the races have been issued a licence by the racing gods to make money without ever been forced to do any real work.
What the public doesn't realise is that a professional horse racing analyst generally spends 16 hours a day going to the racetrack, compiling statistics, and watching videos for trip information, not to mention poring through all of the available information on the day's entrants and establishing a theoretical value for each of the starters. Most would consider such behaviour obsessive, but it's a game where only a few can survive, financial disaster looms boldy, and the margin for error is slim. There is always an up-and-coming gunslinger, faster and better than his predecessor, armed with the newest technology, and educated by all of those who have come before him lurking in the wings.
ASK A BEAR
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Do i know too much, or not enough?
I'm never at ease. I could never dream of the day when i was totally at ease with any particular trade.
Maybe dealing with uncertainty brings out the best in some of us?
Life is full of sacrifices and compromises. This is not just true for traders but for pretty much everyone everywhere. The important thing is to focus on and be grateful for what you have rather than on dwelling on what you don't.
To be successful as a trader (or an athlete, musician, etc etc) trading (or your sport etc) must be the number one priority in your life but for all the successful traders I know this is really not a choice as they are truly passionate about what they do. Be grateful that you have the opportunity to pursue a career you are passionate about. So you don't have as much time for family and friends as others you know, but be grateful for the time you do have with them and be grateful that they are a part of your life. Be grateful for the wealth you have, it may be less than your neighbour but your much better off than the chinese factory worker who put together your keyboard. Be grateful for the roof over your head and the warm bed you will sleep in tonight.
Of course there will be times when you have to make important decisions and 99% of the time trading will win but remeber that it is still your choice. Choose the path you take and be grateful for having the choice and for what you have chosen and forget about what you didn't choose.
Spend a little time each day thinking about what you have in your life, being grateful for it and appreciating how fortunate you are. You will be amazed at how much more relaxed and content you feel.
Take this attitude into your trading and I have no doubt your trading performance will rocket as a more positive, relaxed mindset develops with much reduced negative emotion. Be grateful for your winning trades and whatever money you have in your account. Be grateful for your stop that only cost you x £'s, it could've been much worse etc etc.
To be successful as a trader (or an athlete, musician, etc etc) trading (or your sport etc) must be the number one priority in your life but for all the successful traders I know this is really not a choice as they are truly passionate about what they do. Be grateful that you have the opportunity to pursue a career you are passionate about. So you don't have as much time for family and friends as others you know, but be grateful for the time you do have with them and be grateful that they are a part of your life. Be grateful for the wealth you have, it may be less than your neighbour but your much better off than the chinese factory worker who put together your keyboard. Be grateful for the roof over your head and the warm bed you will sleep in tonight.
Of course there will be times when you have to make important decisions and 99% of the time trading will win but remeber that it is still your choice. Choose the path you take and be grateful for having the choice and for what you have chosen and forget about what you didn't choose.
Spend a little time each day thinking about what you have in your life, being grateful for it and appreciating how fortunate you are. You will be amazed at how much more relaxed and content you feel.
Take this attitude into your trading and I have no doubt your trading performance will rocket as a more positive, relaxed mindset develops with much reduced negative emotion. Be grateful for your winning trades and whatever money you have in your account. Be grateful for your stop that only cost you x £'s, it could've been much worse etc etc.
I don't know wether or not it's my age or trading. But i think more along the lines of what you have posted everyday.
rols
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Dear old Ludwig wrote the ladder quote at the end of his great work, the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus which was the first book to add anything new to logic since the ancient greeks had seemingly exhausted the subject 2000 years previously.
What I think he was also saying was that the written word is meaningless and nonsense unless it is assimilated as a life experience.
On a side note, his father was one of the richest men in Europe, and when the father died Ludwig gave away most of the fortune to his sisters and struggling artists. He also had four brothers, three of whom committed suicide.
rollsafe
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0007
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This is a very interesting thread with much worthwhile comment.
I have absolutely no doubt that the quote is true (based on reported experiences etc - I have not been good*/unlucky*/obsessed* enough (* del as reqd) to know from personal experience.
But what I have seen is that in any calling / profession / activity, if you are going to be the very best and get to the top; even if your natural ability is way above most people's, you still have to give up an awful lot to make it. And unless you become obsessed with success you'll never make it truly. So many greats in art / science / military / sport / engineering / academia have done so at the expense of their personal & private lives.
It's beyond their control, they just have to follow this inbuilt determination - I've seen it in fields other than trading & I don't see why trading's any different (the only trader I know really well is myself - so that's not a lot of help!) I just count myself lucky that I don't have the "best trader" gene: it allows me to have other interests and take just enough out of the market to suit my needs.
What I do know is: If i had that "best trader" gene I'd go for it - there must be something supremely satisfying in being the very best.
jiggly
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My 2 cents........
To be the best at anything requires one to sacrifice a hell of a lot. Every field is the same. The Olympics have been mentioned.......you don't see too many gold medalits that have a happy and balanced life, going out with friends, spending time with family, having other interests and hobbies etc. Hell most aren't even very healthy at the end of it because of all the drugs they've had to take. They train every day for most of the day. The cost to their personal life is enormous. They don't even question whether those sacrifices need to be made, it is a given.
Trading is no different. If you want to be the absolute best then those are the sacrifices you will have to make. No family life, no friends, no other hobbies, no late nights on the drink, getting up before dawn and going to bed past midnight and watching the screens all the time inbetween. There is always going to be someone else out there willing to make those sacrifices so you better be willing too.
Here's the crux though, as I see it. Those Olympians accept responsibility for those sacrifices. They accept responsibility for the choices they make. If they didn't accept full responsibility for their life, their choices, their sacrifices, then the psychological dissonance they felt would simply drive them out of the sport long before they made it to the top. They do not even ask if they are doing the right thing. They know they are. They know they are because they accept that the number 1 priority in their life is winning the gold and all other aspects of life must be sublimated to that goal.
So if you want to be the best accept responsibility for what needs to be done. If you are still asking whether it is the right thing to do or not then you haven't really decided to be the best. You wish to be the best maybe but you haven't really decided if that is your number 1 priority.
Just remember though, the gold medal winner is almost always a different person in 4 years time. The world record is broken time and time again. Someone better always comes along.
Why should trading be any different? No matter how good you are, you wont be the best for very long you can be assured of that. On top of that, there is no gold medal in trading. There is no world record. There is no trophy given to the best trader each four years. So how do we decide who is the very best at the game?
It's up to each individual to decide if it is worth the sacrifice in order to believe they are the best for a brief period of time. In this game believing you are the best is about as close as you will ever come to being the best.
My personal goals are for the money and time freedom trading can offer. I do not need to be the best to achieve those goals and so I don't worry about trying to be. I just worry about trying to be the best I can be whilst at the same time not letting trading rule every aspect of my life.
Cheers,
PKFFW
To be the best at anything requires one to sacrifice a hell of a lot. Every field is the same. The Olympics have been mentioned.......you don't see too many gold medalits that have a happy and balanced life, going out with friends, spending time with family, having other interests and hobbies etc. Hell most aren't even very healthy at the end of it because of all the drugs they've had to take. They train every day for most of the day. The cost to their personal life is enormous. They don't even question whether those sacrifices need to be made, it is a given.
Trading is no different. If you want to be the absolute best then those are the sacrifices you will have to make. No family life, no friends, no other hobbies, no late nights on the drink, getting up before dawn and going to bed past midnight and watching the screens all the time inbetween. There is always going to be someone else out there willing to make those sacrifices so you better be willing too.
Here's the crux though, as I see it. Those Olympians accept responsibility for those sacrifices. They accept responsibility for the choices they make. If they didn't accept full responsibility for their life, their choices, their sacrifices, then the psychological dissonance they felt would simply drive them out of the sport long before they made it to the top. They do not even ask if they are doing the right thing. They know they are. They know they are because they accept that the number 1 priority in their life is winning the gold and all other aspects of life must be sublimated to that goal.
So if you want to be the best accept responsibility for what needs to be done. If you are still asking whether it is the right thing to do or not then you haven't really decided to be the best. You wish to be the best maybe but you haven't really decided if that is your number 1 priority.
Just remember though, the gold medal winner is almost always a different person in 4 years time. The world record is broken time and time again. Someone better always comes along.
Why should trading be any different? No matter how good you are, you wont be the best for very long you can be assured of that. On top of that, there is no gold medal in trading. There is no world record. There is no trophy given to the best trader each four years. So how do we decide who is the very best at the game?
It's up to each individual to decide if it is worth the sacrifice in order to believe they are the best for a brief period of time. In this game believing you are the best is about as close as you will ever come to being the best.
My personal goals are for the money and time freedom trading can offer. I do not need to be the best to achieve those goals and so I don't worry about trying to be. I just worry about trying to be the best I can be whilst at the same time not letting trading rule every aspect of my life.
Cheers,
PKFFW
stocks_bobby
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Dear Tom,
You are absolutely right but since i have learn't trading and developed my system,i have striven to only trade one index and that too intraday and to only excel in that.
It ahs given me sufficent tiem to play and to enjoy the grwing eyars of my 3 year old son.
I conciously devote tiem towrads him.bye for now as i ahve to take him for a long walk and for playing on teh swings.
You are absolutely right but since i have learn't trading and developed my system,i have striven to only trade one index and that too intraday and to only excel in that.
It ahs given me sufficent tiem to play and to enjoy the grwing eyars of my 3 year old son.
I conciously devote tiem towrads him.bye for now as i ahve to take him for a long walk and for playing on teh swings.
BSD
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I'm afraid I totally do not see myself in your post at all Tom !
My motto in life has always been finding a balance between achieving financial success, and having the most fun I possibly can, while trying to do more good than bad.
And don't get me wrong, financial success for me doesn't mean just a great salary, I want to go all the way.
But I have never thought that hard work had anything to do with achieving outstanding success, and to date that has most definitely proven true for myself.
I sleep in, I don't stare at the screens the whole day, I don't dream of markets or check em at night, I party hard on weekends when I can and couldn't care less where markets open on Mondays.
Everything in life is down to your personal choice.
And my choice was to get the best of both worlds.
I totally enjoy my work when I'm doing it - by far the best job in the world imo - but when I'm not working, when I've achieved my targets for the day I'll go out and have a good time, go for a good brisk walk somewhere to get the min 30 minutes exercise our bodies need to remain functional, go for a nice drive, go hang out in Starbucks, browse through book stores, just have a good time in other words, and on weekends go for drinks and clubs etc.
Everything in life is a choice, and as far as I'm aware the most successful achivers are always those who take things seriously enough, but play them lightly, for these people things come with far less effort than for the fighters, fighting just causes your actions to be met by reactions, let go on the other hand, float along down the path of least resistance and in tune with the natural ebb and flow of life and its offers, and far greater things will start happening with very little effort indeed.
My motto in life has always been finding a balance between achieving financial success, and having the most fun I possibly can, while trying to do more good than bad.
And don't get me wrong, financial success for me doesn't mean just a great salary, I want to go all the way.
But I have never thought that hard work had anything to do with achieving outstanding success, and to date that has most definitely proven true for myself.
I sleep in, I don't stare at the screens the whole day, I don't dream of markets or check em at night, I party hard on weekends when I can and couldn't care less where markets open on Mondays.
Everything in life is down to your personal choice.
And my choice was to get the best of both worlds.
I totally enjoy my work when I'm doing it - by far the best job in the world imo - but when I'm not working, when I've achieved my targets for the day I'll go out and have a good time, go for a good brisk walk somewhere to get the min 30 minutes exercise our bodies need to remain functional, go for a nice drive, go hang out in Starbucks, browse through book stores, just have a good time in other words, and on weekends go for drinks and clubs etc.
Everything in life is a choice, and as far as I'm aware the most successful achivers are always those who take things seriously enough, but play them lightly, for these people things come with far less effort than for the fighters, fighting just causes your actions to be met by reactions, let go on the other hand, float along down the path of least resistance and in tune with the natural ebb and flow of life and its offers, and far greater things will start happening with very little effort indeed.
Exactly Markus.
You can have a very pleasant life holding positions for weeks rather than minutes, checking once a day at about eleven, and having a "punt" down at the races with the odd day trade after lunch.
It may not be "optimal" to trade once a day, but it cuts down on commissions and tends to even itself out in the longrun.
Joey
I think it's important to draw the distinction between time spent trading and the lifespan or frequency of trades... one can spend all week trading and not take a single position on.
Infact traders who aspire to achieve great things should readily accept that the lifespan of a trade is (as a general rule) inversly proportional to its scaleability, which may or may not be part of a traders aspirations.
Infact traders who aspire to achieve great things should readily accept that the lifespan of a trade is (as a general rule) inversly proportional to its scaleability, which may or may not be part of a traders aspirations.
grimweasel
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Great thread guys with some insperational reading. My demons are the emotions and myself. I have read loads, (too much acording to my wife) I can spot the entry, plan the trade etc but when It comes to the live market, I bodge it. I have been trading gold a lot recently spotting winning entries and exits etc. Reviewing my charts I should be a thousand or so pips up after 2/3 weeks. But am I? No. Because I have let emotions get the better of me. Closed, opened, closed again on a candle formation, re-opened. Dick. Whereas if I'd just let the position run for the whole trade as I had planned I'd be pipping along to the bank. Time and time again I war with my inner self. This game is so very hard.
I know I have a strong gambling gene in my family; my dad, uncle, nans etc have all gambled thru their lives. So first I have to rid/cleanse this defective gene from my soul.
Robbie 'Naked Trader' said in his book that you should never trade if you've had a history of gambling in your life family. I'm beginning to see why. I so want to be a success at this game, not for the true financial reward, but for time at home, golf, running, cooking dinner for the wife etc. After 20 years of fractured lifestyle I now realise what's important in life. Home, family, hobbies and interests. Work is the means by which one funds these activities. Not the funding controlling your life.
I tried Hypnotherapy the other week. It started to work then wore off. I will have a few more sessions as It worked for me in a few other areas in my past (smoking, agression/stress etc). Anything is worth a try to conquer this business.
The final question/statement I suppose is knowing when to give-in and preserve the lifestyle/capital/relationships that one currently has before jeapodizing it all.
The quest continues....
Grim
I know I have a strong gambling gene in my family; my dad, uncle, nans etc have all gambled thru their lives. So first I have to rid/cleanse this defective gene from my soul.
Robbie 'Naked Trader' said in his book that you should never trade if you've had a history of gambling in your life family. I'm beginning to see why. I so want to be a success at this game, not for the true financial reward, but for time at home, golf, running, cooking dinner for the wife etc. After 20 years of fractured lifestyle I now realise what's important in life. Home, family, hobbies and interests. Work is the means by which one funds these activities. Not the funding controlling your life.
I tried Hypnotherapy the other week. It started to work then wore off. I will have a few more sessions as It worked for me in a few other areas in my past (smoking, agression/stress etc). Anything is worth a try to conquer this business.
The final question/statement I suppose is knowing when to give-in and preserve the lifestyle/capital/relationships that one currently has before jeapodizing it all.
The quest continues....
Grim
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