The end of the EU

[Splitlink]

Yes Jon...but what is that makes labour cheaper? Think of a self employed man panning for gold in the U.K and a self employed man panning for gold in China. Assuming they are both as proficient as each other, what is the difference between their tools? Answer:ZERO. What is the difference between their Productivity? Answer:ZERO. What is the difference in their costs? Well that is ALL down to taxes and regulations which come from Government. You keep blaming 'labour costs' as if it is some esoteric problem with unknown origins.

Anyone would think that government is the only villain in this scenario. Labour, through its union power, is a terrible thief, along with it's partner, capitalism.

Unions put the wages up---Factories put their prices up. Both of them, in countries lke the US, UK and other major producers in the West, use their governments to sell machinery to poor workers in underdeveloped countries, so that they, in turn produce more and more raw material at cheap prices. Those labourers get more and more into debt while their counterparts---probably socialists, if not communists, get wealthier and wealthier and, actually go on holidays to those countries, just to rub it in.

I don't have any illusions about anybody. We are all as bad as one another and only complain when we are having the bad patch.

 

[barjon]

Yes Jon...but what is that makes labour cheaper? Think of a self employed man panning for gold in the U.K and a self employed man panning for gold in China. Assuming they are both as proficient as each other, what is the difference between their tools? Answer:ZERO. What is the difference between their Productivity? Answer:ZERO. What is the difference in their costs? Well that is ALL down to taxes and regulations which come from Government. You keep blaming 'labour costs' as if it is some esoteric problem with unknown origins.

Might have known that gold would come into it somewhere, nt 😆

Anyway, "ALL" you say? Well, people are prepared to sell their labour at different prices for many reasons unconnected with taxes and regulations aren't they? So it can't all be down to Government.

 

[Atilla]

Might have known that gold would come into it somewhere, nt 😆

Anyway, "ALL" you say? Well, people are prepared to sell their labour at different prices for many reasons unconnected with taxes and regulations aren't they? So it can't all be down to Government.

Also, what is so very different say between UK France and Germany?

Looking at differences should bear some fruit. :idea:

 

[Pat494]

I don't suppose many of you are old enough to remember labour relations in the 1960 and 70s. It was dreadful. There were regular strikes in the docks, coal mines, railways etc. They were organised by the communists largely and financed with suitcases full of money distributed to bribe workers.
The bosses were 2nd rate , greedy etc
So between the 2 sides fighting, other countries took bigger shares of the market. I knew this first hand trying to sell British goods in Hong Kong. They were of less quality and overpriced in that free market place. Impossible. Replacement stock never arrived on time due to strikes in the UK etc. etc.
Britain went from number one country to a joke. Very sad.

 

[Purple Brain]

Harold McMillan used to say when PM "My job is to manage a declining Nation". I don't think it needs to be like that, but it requires some far sighted leadership and and the vision to think beyond five years. We've not got that either!!!

Politicking and government has become far more short-term in the last 50 years, as has British manufacturing. That was what you were saying of course, but the reason these issues have become short-term is because they are being driven by short-term populist pressures: be they voters or share-holders. Up to WWII the UK population had very little impact on government. The government did largely what it wanted to do without worrying overmuch about what the public thought or would say. Indeed, the public didn't have the ability then to be heard and the media was a far tamer beast than today.

This short-termism at grass roots is what is driving the decline in Western, not just UK, government and industry. Those countries which do not currently 'suffer' such constraints are doing rather well. Investment is for the long term and short term gratifications are restricted or denied. Either voluntarily or otherwise.

Thatcher did burn North Sea oil rather than use the proceeds for onward investment, but she did come into power when the country was in a bit of a pickle and I can't blame her for her actions. As someone around at that time and starting out I welcomed the environment she provided (and of course Reagan the other side of the pond) and my good luck in being where I was, when I was.

The time and tide have moved on and I don't see any way back for the UK to former glories. The best bet would be to, as you say Barjon, find what we can provide those other countries that are now doing what the UK used to do best. And charge them mightily for it.

As a final point, the UK has for over 50 years been in the top 5 nations exporting armaments: something we were good at. It's part manufacturing and part innovation and part networking. We have, for the first time in over 50 years, slipped out of the top 5. Even if our manufacturing is no longer commercially viable, we had innovation and networking. I'd hate to think we'd started dropping the ball in either (or both) of those areas too.

 

[counter_violent]

I don't suppose many of you are old enough to remember labour relations in the 1960 and 70s. It was dreadful. There were regular strikes in the docks, coal mines, railways etc. They were organised by the communists largely and financed with suitcases full of money distributed to bribe workers.
The bosses were 2nd rate , greedy etc
So between the 2 sides fighting, other countries took bigger shares of the market. I knew this first hand trying to sell British goods in Hong Kong. They were of less quality and overpriced in that free market place. Impossible. Replacement stock never arrived on time due to strikes in the UK etc. etc.
Britain went from number one country to a joke. Very sad.

Of course we remember it😆

I was starting work in the mid 70's and distinctly remember the power cuts and sugar rationing and all the other nonsense that was going on previously.
Remember thinking that all the politics and unionism was nonsense too.
Didn't have to wait too much longer for all that to end. When Thatcher got in, it was like a breath of fresh air for anyone who got "on message". She was basically saying that for anyone who wanted to get on and make a go of it, then govt would not step in the way. I took full advantage of the new mood. Others mind, just carried on the same as before, whinging about this and that, and got left by the wayside.

It should not be the responsibility of govt to provide everything for the people from cradle to grave. Govt should just gtf out of it and leave people to get on with things.

 

[Purple Brain]

It should not be the responsibility of govt to provide everything for the people from cradle to grave. Govt should just gtf out of it and leave people to get on with things.

Dangerous words these days. And ones with which I totally agree. We both appear to have appreciated that all too short moment in time when those with a will were allowed to also find the way, without too much trouble.

 

[counter_violent]

Dangerous words these days. And ones with which I totally agree. We both appear to have appreciated that all too short moment in time when those with a will were allowed to also find the way, without too much trouble.

Yes indeed.

What this lot don't understand is that those times are back again and will accelerate as we move forward. How do I know this ! Because the govt cannot keep borrowing, or taxing and spending what it doesn't have. So the nett result will be, we either go bust as a country, or we get off our arses and make things happen despite govt.

 

[Purple Brain]

So the nett result will be, we either go bust as a country, or we get off our arses and make things happen despite govt.

The latter option of which is precisely what is occurring right now in the US. Tired of waiting for Federal government to come up with a game plan, the individual states, cities and even towns are doing what they think is the right thing to do to turn things around at their level. Seems the American Spirit is alive and well. You'd hope the British Bulldog is in similarly good health.

 

[new_trader]

Might have known that gold would come into it somewhere, nt 😆

Anyway, "ALL" you say? Well, people are prepared to sell their labour at different prices for many reasons unconnected with taxes and regulations aren't they? So it can't all be down to Government.

Glad you said that Jon, so you do believe in free-markets. The main point was "SELF-EMPLOYED" because I didn't want anyone trying to blame wage rates on "greedy" corporations.

I used gold because it is universal so quality was not a factor. A person who buys gold doesn't concern themselves about where in the world it was mined whereas someone might be concerned about their make of car or TV or other good.

The point is this: If you were a self-employed gold prospector and you were lucky enough to average 3 ounces of gold/month in the U.K but only netted 2 ounces after taxes, regulations and living costs, and a person in China also averaged 3 ounces of gold/month but netted 2.5 ounces after taxes, regulations and living costs, how can you say that net productivity is better in China because of labour costs? You can't. And likewise with manufacturing. If you were employing someone to prospect for you, you would be better off paying for someone to do it in China.

I have already explained why the welfare/warfare state, taxes, regulations, fiat money, Q.E and debt monetization leads to higher living costs. But I'm sure you will still think someone other than Government is to blame...maybe it's the aliens from Omicron Percei 8.

 

[Purple Brain]

The point is this: If you were a self-employed gold prospector and you were lucky enough to average 3 ounces of gold/month in the U.K but only netted 2 ounces after taxes, regulations and living costs, and a person in China also averaged 3 ounces of gold/month but netted 2.5 ounces after taxes, regulations and living costs, how can you say that net productivity is better in China because of labour costs? You can't.

Net productivity is a function of added value in relation to labour (among other denominational factors) so net productivity in your example is better precisely because of the lower labour base costs.

 

[new_trader]

Net productivity is a function of added value in relation to labour (among other denominational factors) so net productivity in your example is better precisely because of the lower labour base costs.

What do you regard as a labour cost for someone who is self employed?

 

[barjon]

............I have already explained why the welfare/warfare state, taxes, regulations, fiat money, Q.E and debt monetization leads to higher living costs. But I'm sure you will still think someone other than Government is to blame...maybe it's the aliens from Omicron Percei 8................

Nope, I merely said that you can't lay ALL the blame on Government as you would have it.

 

[new_trader]

Nope, I merely said that you can't lay ALL the blame on Government as you would have it.

Ok, Jon, I'm all ears. Who do you think shares the blame?

 

[counter_violent]

Yes indeed.

What this lot don't understand is that those times are back again and will accelerate as we move forward. How do I know this ! Because the govt cannot keep borrowing, or taxing and spending what it doesn't have. So the nett result will be, we either go bust as a country, or we get off our arses and make things happen despite govt.

So, the way to speed this reaction up is for the govt to drastically cut off the subsistance benefits to all able bodied people of working age.

Problem solved. Elegant solution is it not!

 

[Purple Brain]

What do you regard as a labour cost for someone who is self employed?

Whatever they charge for their labour.

 

[barjon]

Ok, Jon, I'm all ears. Who do you think shares the blame?

The aliens from Omicron Percei 8, of course 🙂

 

[barjon]

So, the way to speed this reaction up is for the govt to drastically cut off the subsistance benefits to all able bodied people of working age.

Problem solved. Elegant solution is it not!

😆 Well, they could always do a Cyprus - you'd better keep your trading profits tucked up under the bed.

 

[Purple Brain]

😆 Well, they could always do a Cyprus - you'd better keep your trading profits tucked up under the bed.

Until they issue new banknotes on a 2:1 basis.

 

[new_trader]

Whatever they charge for their labour.

That is a cost to the customer, because they are the employer.