Thatcher

[Trader333]

Presumably you would ban trading as well as this is an extension to a "not for profit market" Either way in my view your think tank is flawed and will never happen for the simple reason that people are naturally greedy. I knew of people who were in prison camps during the war and they all started equally with nothing. By the end some had acquired "relative" wealth compared to others and this is reflected in all societies in all of history regardless of what any governing authority may try to do to change it. Look at Russia and the staggering wealth that has gone to some people as a direct result of the attempt by socialism to make everyone equal and redistribute wealth.

It doesn't work, it never has done and it never will do without a step change in human consciousness, condition and attitude of which I see no evidence anywhere that this is even beginning to be a remote possibility. I would love to be proved wrong but that is not going to happen.

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

So, if we can get British miners to work for say £400 a week, then maybe we would have a viable coal industry. It's not rocket science to figure this out!

Considering that many have not had a job since the closing of the mines I think any miner surely would jump at the chance to earn £400 per week? Also taking into account the average price of property in these areas, means they would be able to afford their own housing at the same time.

So lets make this country great again, lets start with mining. :clap::clap::clap:

Failing that, evolution and revolutions will just have to play out their natural course, no matter how bad that may be.

Its all part of the master plan.

 

[bbmac]

I'll answer your questions/points in the order you raise them, and I have numbered them accordingly;

1. Now you're being silly - this ' not for profit ' housing market is designed to cure a very real and growing problem in the Uk re housing, that is all.

2. Today's radical thinking is tomorrow's accepted orthodoxy. All too often conventional thinking does not address the problem squarely on ..some seemingly unsolvable problems require us to think ' outside the box' and come up with imaginative solutions

3. I refer you to my point 1. This is nothing to do with ideology -communist/socialist/free market or otherwise - it is a pragmatic solution to a growing and real problem that threatens the very fabric of our diminishing social cohesion, given the overall contemporary circumstances we find ourselves in. It is an imperfect solution I agree but a solution nonetheless and without a solution we will have generations of disenfranchised people with growing social divisions and resentment, and where do you think that will lead ?

4. You are entrenched in stale and outdated thinking - it afflicts us all and to be honest my generation or your generation (they may be the same) are not the ones who need convincing as we are less likely to be facing these problems. (I don't know your circumstances and don't want to know - they are your business.) I refer you to my point 2 above - it is about leadership and as many have said today of Thatcher about ' making the weather,' not being buffeted around by it only to re-arrange the deck chairs, much in the same order they were before.

G/L

1. Presumably you would ban trading as well as this is an extension to a "not for profit market"

2. Either way in my view your think tank is flawed and will never happen for the simple reason that people are naturally greedy.

3. I knew of people who were in prison camps during the war and they all started equally with nothing. By the end some had acquired "relative" wealth compared to others and this is reflected in all societies in all of history regardless of what any governing authority may try to do to change it. Look at Russia and the staggering wealth that has gone to some people as a direct result of the attempt by socialism to make everyone equal and redistribute wealth.

4. It doesn't work, it never has done and it never will do without a step change in human consciousness, condition and attitude of which I see no evidence anywhere that this is even beginning to be a remote possibility. I would love to be proved wrong but that is not going to happen.

 

[counter_violent]

Considering that many have not had a job since the closing of the mines I think any miner surely would jump at the chance to earn £400 per week? Also taking into account the average price of property in these areas, means they would be able to afford their own housing at the same time.

So lets make this country great again, lets start with mining. :clap::clap::clap:

Failing that, evolution and revolutions will just have to play out their natural course, no matter how bad that may be.

Its all part of the master plan.

Well the point I was making is this. Forget subsidising any jobs, under free market principles each job finds its own levels of pay both upward and downward adjusted according to sales, stock, supply and demand.
Those who will not work for a lower sum are free to leave and seek opportunity elsewhere. Those who come in from lesser jobs are satisfied and are making upward progress.
The notion that wages need to continually rise is a complete nonsense. Markets dictate supply and demand and by extension wages for those who work in that activity.

 

[Mr. Charts]

Well the point I was making is this. Forget subsidising any jobs, under free market principles each job finds its own levels of pay both upward and downward adjusted according to sales, stock, supply and demand.
Those who will not work for a lower sum are free to leave and seek opportunity elsewhere. Those who come in from lesser jobs are satisfied and are making upward progress.
The notion that wages need to continually rise is a complete nonsense. Markets dictate supply and demand and by extension wages for those who work in that activity.

Except that the welfare system warps supply and demand in the labour market by providing money earned by tax payers who actually work to SOME of those who do not. Low wage jobs are taken by immigrants the vast majority of whom work hard doing jobs which the native labour force thinks are beneath them and/or not worth doing because the level of free handouts approximates to those earnings.
The poverty industry and the Left have a vested interest in creating the largest amount of state dependency in order to generate political support in elections.

 

[counter_violent]

What does need to be addressed is how we get a model that is inclusive and that takes advantage of all the options already available to those higher up. Starting from the ground up and without interference from govt.

The way forward is as I and Mac have indicated via co-operatives. (even better if routed through an LLP or LLC) (shared risk, equity, wages and dividends)

How do we get like minded people together and co-operating?
Start a website and a list of business headers, locations etc where individuals can add their names to activities of interest.
Provide guidance, information, assistance to get these projects off the ground.

 

[bbmac]

Oh dear you are beginning to sound like Travis - you'd see a conspiracy if you saw 2 people ordering 3 cups of tea ! The world has moved on - that battle has been won - the free marketeers won - it is the accepted orthodoxy - even the labour party have accepted it. No body wants to see state dependency or the resulting poverty and hardship it can bring.

G/L

....The poverty industry and the Left have a vested interest in creating the largest amount of state dependency in order to generate political support in elections....

 

[counter_violent]

Except that the welfare system warps supply and demand in the labour market by providing money earned by tax payers who actually work to SOME of those who do not. Low wage jobs are taken by immigrants the vast majority of whom work hard doing jobs which the native labour force thinks are beneath them and/or not worth doing because the level of free handouts approximates to those earnings.
The poverty industry and the Left have a vested interest in creating the largest amount of state dependency in order to generate political support in elections.

Yes I agree, welfare is a massive problem and needs to be addressed. No if's and buts about it. As does oversized govt and it's current remit.(nanny state)

 

[Trader333]

bbm,

Today's radical thinking is tomorrow's accepted orthodoxy.

No it isn't or at least when implemented it has never stopped the reality that when wealth is redistributed it soon finds its way back to those who have a greater ability to acquire it.

Being condescending about your supposed "higher view" is no different to Thatcher, Blair and latterly Cameron is and yet we still have the same problems as always. To get any solution on the basis of what you are thinking will require a step change in human thinking and that has never been achieved. I tell you what lets give it 30 years and come back here and I think we will still see the same issues as always.

 

[bbmac]

I agree it isn't always - but sometimes it does become tomorrow's accepted orthodoxy.

Yes wealth does tend to make it's way back to those who are more able to acquire it but specifically concerning this proposed 'not for profit' housing market -it cannot - it can only be willed to a relative or sold back to the govt who will re-sell it on the same basis. The measure will to - to a large extent take the speculative profit nature of the current private housing market away too.

As for the ''higher view'' - I don't pretend/assert that it's any higher than anyone else's but I do say that radical imaginative thinking is required to fix long standing problems that have not been fixed any other way. I'm sorry you find it condescending, but Unlike '...Thatcher, Blair, and latterly Cameron...' these are truly radical solutions to a problem that has grown and keeps growing and that all 3 have (thus far re Cameron - but don't hold your breath) failed to address.

As for coming back in 30 years and see-ing what has happened - you are right - the odds favour nothing radical such as I have been suggesting - which shows the obstacles are great - but it doesn't mean we should accept the accepted orthodoxy and status quo when we know it won't change things for the better. In all of human history nothing ever got achieved this way and anything that did ever get achieved that was worth something was always a struggle. If we followed your thinking to it's logical extension we'd all throw our hands up and say let's not bother trying - it's too hard - it can't be done.

G/L

bbm,



No it isn't or at least when implemented it has never stopped the reality that when wealth is redistributed it soon finds its way back to those who have a greater ability to acquire it.

Being condescending about your supposed "higher view" is no different to Thatcher, Blair and latterly Cameron is and yet we still have the same problems as always. To get any solution on the basis of what you are thinking will require a step change in human thinking and that has never been achieved. I tell you what lets give it 30 years and come back here and I think we will still see the same issues as always.

 

[Mr. Charts]

Oh dear you are beginning to sound like Travis - you'd see a conspiracy if you saw 2 people ordering 3 cups of tea ! The world has moved on - that battle has been won - the free marketeers won - it is the accepted orthodoxy - even the labour party have accepted it. No body wants to see state dependency or the resulting poverty and hardship it can bring.

G/L

If that condescending remark is aimed at me you're way off target
Yes, if I saw two people ordering three cups of tea I'd draw one of two conclusions:
one was very thirsty,
someone else was coming along shortly.

I would not think it was a conspiracy by the tea marketing board to undermine coffee sales.

But yes actually, I do think that political parties, whoever they are, often tend to have policies which benefit their own electoral core.
Frankly if you think that Gordon Brown's expansion of the benefit system and massive increase in govt expenditure and Labour's general wish to "re-distribute" wealth away from its creators wasn't largely based on wishing to increase the number of people voting for him, then I suspect you are not viewing Labour's actions objectively.

And you think the free marketeers have "won", do you?
Well Red Ed and his resurgent Old Labour seem to be set on ensuring the free marketeers only "won" a battle, not the war.

As for my own political leanings, I tend to vote for whoever seems to the least worst party for the general good of the population; and that varies, usually whichever govt is in power at the time ends up messing up the country through the arrogance and condescension which comes with believing themselves to be "right" and "radical".......

 

[counter_violent]

I'm shocked and stunned by all the sentimental rubbish put out. I lived through her years and they were bleeding hard. I started my career in McDonalds with an economics degree. 3m+ unemployed. Shocking.

You just make me do it don't ya.

So you went to university and obtained an economics degree...very good...but i'm sorry to say, this does not entitle you or anyone else to jump in above others in the workplace who have learned the ropes from the ground up.

I'm thinking of nursing as an example. Years ago policy change stated that future nurses would need to be degree educated. Well thats all fine and dandy as drugs and treatments become ever more complex. Except for the fact that nursing is hands on all about caring and cleaning up mess. The current system is shown to be failing in this most basic function and I suspect it has a great deal to do with the fact that nobody wants to get their hands dirty...beneath them.

Under Labour, the aspiration was to send 50% of school leavers to uni. What for? So they can become assistant to the assistant manager at MaccyD's !! The mind boggles !

 

[Mr. Charts]

Never did I think I'd be to the right of Attila the Hun

Anyway, what's wrong with working for McDonalds ?
It's a bloody hard job and the food perks aren't exactly great.
I respect anybody who works hard and does a decent job.

 

[counter_violent]

Never did I think I'd be to the right of Attila the Hun

Anyway, what's wrong with working for McDonald's ?
It's a bloody hard job and the food perks aren't exactly great.
I respect anybody who works hard and does a decent job.

Theres nothing wrong with it. A jobs a job...it's all these priks that think jobs are beneath them that have issues.

 

[Mr. Charts]

Theres nothing wrong with it. A jobs a job...it's all these priks that think jobs are beneath them that have issues.

Spot on :clap:

In a sense I have more respect for those people who do a job I'd hate to do.
It's the superior condescending clowns I have zero respect for.
A good example was watching the pathologically hate filled Labourite Glenda Jackson in parliament this afternoon.
She was followed by the sensible level headed Gisella Stuart, also Labour - and a decent person.
Sadly the Labour party is drifting to the Jackson extreme.

 

[counter_violent]

Spot on :clap:

In a sense I have more respect for those people who do a job I'd hate to do.
It's the superior condescending clowns I have zero respect for.
A good example was watching the pathologically hate filled Labourite Glenda Jackson in parliament this afternoon.
She was followed by the sensible level headed Gisella Stuart, also Labour - and a decent person.
Sadly the Labour party is drifting to the Jackson extreme.

Yes I watched her too. A truly awful hateful creature. Disgusting performance.

 

[Atilla]

You just make me do it don't ya.

So you went to university and obtained an economics degree...very good...but i'm sorry to say, this does not entitle you or anyone else to jump in above others in the workplace who have learned the ropes from the ground up.

I'm thinking of nursing as an example. Years ago policy change stated that future nurses would need to be degree educated. Well thats all fine and dandy as drugs and treatments become ever more complex. Except for the fact that nursing is hands on all about caring and cleaning up mess. The current system is shown to be failing in this most basic function and I suspect it has a great deal to do with the fact that nobody wants to get their hands dirty...beneath them.

Under Labour, the aspiration was to send 50% of school leavers to uni. What for? So they can become assistant to the assistant manager at MaccyD's !! The mind boggles !

I didn't think my degree (on a full grant), would allow me to jump over anyone? I have a work ethic. I got on my bike and got mi self a job. Oi-rite! In fact in those days I didn't have 20p for bus fares and used to walk for miles. I didn't feel I could ask for money from my dad who was also having a hard time. Times were very hard. BUT I was very lucky and had good parents. Go and speak to sons of some miners if you really feel like having a good laff.

I fail to see your point and wondering what you are mumbling about to be honest?

I have put forward many useless policies pushed by your darling rust bag as well as their outcome. Only useful things she did was to sort out the unions and win back the Falklands. You think she is the next best thing to sliced bread but our current predicament doesn't bode well now does it?

As we speak they are debating building (having built by the French) new nuclear reactors. One would think they could use existing coal reserves to generate power until fuel cell technologies are developed in the near future. But that thought may be too obvious to all the smart aleks in the Tory party.


You are smug but I like you CV

 

[Atilla]

Presumably you would ban trading as well as this is an extension to a "not for profit market" Either way in my view your think tank is flawed and will never happen for the simple reason that people are naturally greedy. I knew of people who were in prison camps during the war and they all started equally with nothing. By the end some had acquired "relative" wealth compared to others and this is reflected in all societies in all of history regardless of what any governing authority may try to do to change it. Look at Russia and the staggering wealth that has gone to some people as a direct result of the attempt by socialism to make everyone equal and redistribute wealth.

It doesn't work, it never has done and it never will do without a step change in human consciousness, condition and attitude of which I see no evidence anywhere that this is even beginning to be a remote possibility. I would love to be proved wrong but that is not going to happen.

I disagree with this perspective. People can, will and do change all the time. Greed and more is not always good or desired. There are many people who turn away from the rat race and join communes. Not many for sure but that is because our land laws and planning permissions do not allow and social structure outside of what is supported in law.

People are not free but channeled into debt and life without really having all the facts or full control of their lives. People don't really have choice. AND when capitalists offer you more choice it is at a price.

UK is particularly laboured by the old Feudal system with Barons and large ownership of land by individuals. Our planning laws and permitted developments since post-WWII further encourage this structure.

Off-grid living and the eco-industry is growing and is a very attractive life form but staunted by our planning laws.

As it happens councils in Wales are the ones most amiable to this approach.

With improved communications and failure of capitalism I reckon if small holdings were encouraged we could see a net deflux out of cities into the country side where people would be far more happy living the simple life rather than in concrete jungles living off hand-outs.

This is already happening as well as net migration out of UK. There was some report out recently stating British youth were not well supported and unhappy in some league. I think we came 16th.

I also think BBM's housing idea is ingenious and I hope will get buy in for development.


Humanity I believe is evolving.

 

[counter_violent]

I didn't think my degree (on a full grant), would allow me to jump over anyone? I have a work ethic. I got on my bike and got mi self a job. Oi-rite! In fact in those days I didn't have 20p for bus fares and used to walk for miles. I didn't feel I could ask for money from my dad who was also having a hard time. Times were very hard. BUT I was very lucky and had good parents. Go and speak to sons of some miners if you really feel like having a good laff.

I fail to see your point and wondering what you are mumbling about to be honest?

I have put forward many useless policies pushed by your darling rust bag as well as their outcome. Only useful things she did was to sort out the unions and win back the Falklands. You think she is the next best thing to sliced bread but our current predicament doesn't bode well now does it?

As we speak they are debating building (having built by the French) new nuclear reactors. One would think they could use existing coal reserves to generate power until fuel cell technologies are developed in the near future. But that thought may be too obvious to all the smart aleks in the Tory party.


You are smug but I like you CV

Yeah, your quite entertaining too.

I started my career in McDonalds with an economics degree. 3m+ unemployed. Shocking.

Well, it's your quote and it certainly reads as if you were complaining about your lot.

For the record, I left school with virtually nothing. Started work renewing infrastructure/pipelines at the local sewerage works. Got inspired by Thatchers speeches and vision for the future and promptly got on message.

By the time I was 21 I'd finished apprenticeship, started my own business, saved up a large enough deposit and purchased a house. 40% deposit and a very manageable mortgage. Things went from strength to strength and all because I worked hard and was inspired by a great leader.

Theres nothing unusual about what I did. For the last few days, similar stories have emerged from many others who were equally inspired.

 

[Atilla]

Theres nothing wrong with it. A jobs a job...it's all these priks that think jobs are beneath them that have issues.

CV you being really daft now. I see your point and didn't see this post before.

Somebody who is driven and gets through university - is not going to settle for job at McDonalds. Get real.

However, by the same token, despite benefits I will always prefer to work than not to work. Most people think like me too. Scroungers are far and few despite your headlines.

I ended up in IT not because I knew anything about it - but because I went for the highest paid job - at the job centre.


If your point is why are we training our youth through schooling, college and university if there are no jobs for them but let's get em out of school when they are 16 and into stacking shelf's at the local supermarket or changing elderly peoples potties - then this says more about your small arrogant mind than my attitude to work and drive to be the best I can...

Can you think of any other reason why priks would want to try and better them selves so they don't have bathe you in your old age???