Shortcuts vs knowledge

[BSD]

"I always have and always will believe that people who post stuff like you did are the ones that turn up to eventual get togethers with Nissan Micras, scruffy collars, badly fitting clothes and cheap watches."

Was that really necessary?

The micra (used) to be a very good car for its market niche.

Yeah, no offense intended, I'm sure it was a good car.

What I always find funny with quackers who never contribute anything but make noises whose sole intent is to impress is that these people never trade for a living, whereas those that do don't waste a lot of time on trying to find some holy grail that doesn't exist because it cannot, as markets do not dance to the tune of some secret conductor whose directions can be determined with enough effort and hard work, lol, markets are just the result of the actions of the sum of their participants who all have their own methods and agendas.

As I keep saying, when I started out I met a lot of people making a living trading to try and figure out what they do, from which I eventually synthesized my own style.

All of the successful people kept it really simple with equaly simple methods a kindergarten kid could emulate, they didn't think that there is some great big secret behind making it as a trader, they believed its enough to react to markets doing what they do, which is go up, down or sideways, and that's it.

Success = KISS, lack of success = lots of ever wilder arcane theories and no money in the bank.

Trader Dante here is the best example, one of the people he taught his simple metghod to turned peanuts into 100K as he said recently, or take others like newtron bomb, or Captain Currency, or Wasp, or Grey, Gamma Jammer, TWI, Arbitrageur, etc, you don't find them spouting obscure theories does one.

KISS is the name of the game of those who do, whereas the others just keep waffling without ever actually saying anything even remotely tangible.

 

[wasp]

Part of the problem with shortcuts v knowledge is the amount of misinformation that abounds.

Books: Should only be written by profitable working traders.

Tuition: Should only be given by profitable working traders

Information: Should only be given by profitable working traders.

The above will never happen of course.

Even it it were the case. You would still have more people failing rather than winning in this occupation.

It is only after you have acquired the knowledge that you know what the 'shortcuts' are.

Most misunderstood useless bit of information?
Study your market, know your market(s), share(s), learn how it moves and reacts.

They ALL move and react the same way. Be it indices/shares/futures/bonds etc, etc

I have spent many hours reading old posts in this forum and pre-circa 2004, as you will know options as you were one of the posters and being a member for many years, the threads were full of members discussing, analysing and talking about the relationships between price, volume, LII, order book, the tape, traders, banks, market makers etc...

Yet now, it is straight to how, skipping the why completely. As Traduk states too, years of experience are also vital but for those new to trading, they should not see 'breakouts' as a good place to start, the list above should be where one starts, placing a trade should be a long way off.

 

[wasp]

Yeah, no offense intended, I'm sure it was a good car.

What I always find funny with quackers who never contribute anything but make noises whose sole intent is to impress is that these people never trade for a living, whereas those that do don't waste a lot of time on trying to find some holy grail that doesn't exist because it cannot, as markets do not dance to the tune of some secret conductor whose directions can be determined with enough effort and hard work, lol, markets are just the result of the actions of the sum of their participants who all have their own methods and agendas.

As I keep saying, when I started out I met a lot of people making a living trading to try and figure out what they do, from which I eventually synthesized my own style.

All of the successful people kept it really simple with equaly simple methods a kindergarten kid could emulate, they didn't think that there is some great big secret behind making it as a trader, they believed its enough to react to markets doing what they do, which is go up, down or sideways, and that's it.

Success = KISS, lack of success = lots of ever wilder arcane theories and no money in the bank.

Trader Dante here is the best example, one of the people he taught his simple metghod to turned peanuts into 100K as he said recently, or take others like newtron bomb, or Captain Currency, or Wasp, or Grey, Gamma Jammer, TWI, Arbitrageur, etc, you don't find them spouting obscure theories does one.

KISS is the name of the game of those who do, whereas the others just keep waffling without ever actually saying anything even remotely tangible.

Again you miss the point.

I am not posting ''to contribute anything but make noises whose sole intent is to impress''. I am not saying one should have complicated methods. I agree kiss is best.

The point I am making is, one should understand the markets and learn to read them, only then can one really devise the best methodology to provide a long and lustrous career.

As for my lack of prior contributions, I have only just joined and not had the opportunity as yet.

 

[Traduk]

"trading is an implicit learned process with explicit input at the beginning. It is the learning by "thousands of hours of critical observation (implicit) that leads to success providing practical considerations are applied to what is observed. If money management, risk\reward, and win\loss ratios are not strictly adhered to then everything else is pointless."

good post TraduK, Sh..t ! ............... 17 more years to go


OODA loops over and over again, refine refine refine

got to start some place, a breakout is as good a place as any imo, market may never see that zone ..............ever again

........................................................................................................


How long it takes depends on each individual and is really based on character type. I wanted to be a good trader and to that end spent years re-inventing the wheel over and over again. It cost loads of money and precious time especially as day trading on futures (FTSE at the time) had little chance of working. Day trading (futures) changed in 1994 when a trade I was in suddenly exploded upwards (long two £50 per point) and gave an very nice reward. As we know that was the beginning of a huge bull but also of much larger intraday swings. Daytrading now is like pre 1994 position trading.

The timing boils down to the constant question of what do I need to do to win consistently and the battle is frustrated by the fact that we have brains. I am stubborn by nature and needed to be seriously humbled by the markets before I gave in and adopted methods that work.

BTW all of the initial passion has mutated into a daily grind of trying to get in and stay with the flow.

The framework of my method could be learnt in a short time but as somebody I was mentoring stated, I use a different reason for each entry and exit (albeit within a framework) and it's the entry and exits that are implicit learning.

 

[rols]

I have spent many hours reading old posts in this forum and pre-circa 2004, as you will know options as you were one of the posters and being a member for many years, the threads were full of members discussing, analysing and talking about the relationships between price, volume, LII, order book, the tape, traders, banks, market makers etc...

Yet now, it is straight to how, skipping the why completely. As Traduk states too, years of experience are also vital but for those new to trading, they should not see 'breakouts' as a good place to start, the list above should be where one starts, placing a trade should be a long way off.

I agree that the earlier years on this forum had some highly stimulating discussions and less of the wannabe traders facebook it is now.

However I would like to address a couple of points you make. It's a large and unqualified assumption that all Newbies want instant results. There are many posts on here from newbies that display the opposite approach. I think that each and every new trader has their own unique set of circumstances, requirements, background and disposable capital and hence this myth of grail seeking newbies is a lazy conceit by those who consider themselves superior.

Secondly I disagree with the proposal that newbies delay trading in favour of intensive study. IMO nobody learns to swim by reading a book, and so it is with trading. Through active participation in the market and learning through loss (emotional)and mistakes(intellectual/judgement) those with the right application and skills will succeed in the long term.

 

[wasp]

I agree that the earlier years on this forum had some highly stimulating discussions and less of the wannabe traders facebook it is now.

However I would like to address a couple of points you make. It's a large and unqualified assumption that all Newbies want instant results. There are many posts on here from newbies that display the opposite approach. I think that each and every new trader has their own unique set of circumstances, requirements, background and disposable capital and hence this myth of grail seeking newbies is a lazy conceit by those who consider themselves superior.

I apologise to those who actively seek knowledge. There have been many 'newbies' that have shown a desire to learn; reading through new_traders posts for example show this but I would still say they are in the minority and the threads now versus those 3, 4 years ago show this.

Secondly I disagree with the proposal that newbies delay trading in favour of intensive study. IMO nobody learns to swim by reading a book, and so it is with trading. Through active participation in the market and learning through loss (emotional)and mistakes(intellectual/judgement) those with the right application and skills will succeed in the long term.

I agree to a point. Yes, trial and error are valuable learning lessons but one wouldn't step into the driving seat of a car until they at least knew which pedal did what, and just what that big stick in the middle is for. Its just those who go further to understanding the mechanics of the vehicle become the better traders.

 

[options]

I have spent many hours reading old posts in this forum and pre-circa 2004, as you will know options as you were one of the posters and being a member for many years, the threads were full of members discussing, analysing and talking about the relationships between price, volume, LII, order book, the tape, traders, banks, market makers etc...

Yet now, it is straight to how, skipping the why completely. As Traduk states too, years of experience are also vital but for those new to trading, they should not see 'breakouts' as a good place to start, the list above should be where one starts, placing a trade should be a long way off.

Agree with that. Although I think it has been a natural progression of this site. All the early learning stuff is still here. But anyone new coming to the forums will have to look for the information, And a lot of people wanting to know about, and are eager to trade, see the most recent posts, some of which are not really suitable for them. They get engrossed in what they are reading and take it from there.

And I should think that there are a quite a few people who are not willing to find the time to start the journey at the beginning. Because they think or have been told that trading is easy. But where is the begining?

Well, trading is easy. It becomes easy at a certain stage in your learning.
Before that it isn't!

But there are roads that will take you around and around in circles before you find the off ramp

What truly staggers me is that people come to trading with a belief that it is easy money and that they can do it. Most people do. I am guilty of that myself. I saw the prices from the LSE ftse 100 on the teletext on bbc change every 5 min, saw a stock move up in price by 3 pence and thought; If i'd bought one share of that 5 mins ago, I'd have made money. If i'd have bought 500 shares i'd have made... (pause: While I go and get me abacus). F'ng hell... I'll be rich.

A few of the banks had posted results the last few days. All good and all of their prices had risen as a result. A certain bank was due to post in two days time. So I bought shares in them.

I think the day they posted results, was the start of a major recession.

Then I went out and learnt how to do it 'properly'
Course, book, study, study, study.
Could I trade after that?

No.

It still took a bit longer. Quite a lot longer.

I understand what you were trying to say in your first post.
But even if all the information is laid out for people, only some will take it in any case.

The next 'sure thing' to do the rounds will be buying property. Easy to make money in that isn't it.

But getting back to what you were saying. Just 'where' do you start?
What I learnt about the fundamentals of a share and what to look for doesn't apply to the 'work' I do now.

What happened to a share/index price 15 years ago. Doesn't apply for me.
What news came out 10 year/last year or last week doesn't apply.

I know/am aware of all of it, but it of no use in 'my' trading.

E.O.D trading off weekly/daily charts have no place in my trading. I hate drawdowns.
I have done it and been able to get a 'line' out with a trade once that lasted a year.
I have had some very good trades with with very wide stops in place get taken out and have wasted weeks it took in the effort to get there. And worse had nothing to show for it at the end.
Yet I have shown good profit with very tight stops that I have 'managed'.

I prefer to trade intraday, So that 'I' have full control over what I do. It doesn't matter to me what happened last week or even what happened yesterday. For me it is what is happening 'now'. I don't talk a lot about what I do because 'they' say you cannot trade that way and you need to look at weekly, daily, hourly, 15, min and trade off the 5 min chart, after they all line up. (You will wait f*****g ages). And anyone who daytrades, blows up and is not around for long.
Thay say that because they do not know otherwise or have never done it sucessfully.
The chap who turned me around has been daytrading for over 15 years and is normally done by ten in the morning. 'Naz' who is a 'daytrader' has been doing this for 10 years or so. They are both traders of different markets. One is a futures trader and the other is USA share trader. But they have both studied their niches to become amongst the best.

Finding your niche can take years. So it's no surprise that people take 'shortcuts'.

If I were coming to this board for the first time today and saw NB's thread on breakouts I would consider that a good place to start from and would look to trading that way.
If the first trades were good or not. My learning would start from that point.

 

[new_trader]

Again you miss the point.

I am not posting ''to contribute anything but make noises whose sole intent is to impress''. I am not saying one should have complicated methods. I agree kiss is best.

The point I am making is, one should understand the markets and learn to read them, only then can one really devise the best methodology to provide a long and lustrous career.

As for my lack of prior contributions, I have only just joined and not had the opportunity as yet.

Consider this another rep. Excellent post, excellent.

 

[wasp]

words to come.

 

[darktone]

I think its a moot point! Bo / Pins / IS bars are just methods to define a condition in the price. Markets go up and down, they become overbought and oversold. Theres a time to sit and a time to act, nothing mystical or hard in that! But, doin that!? Can be pretty bloody hard! lol ... Theres lots of reasons why people fail but I think not knowing how to wait comes pretty near the top! Seldom discussed too.

Superior new posters. Gota luv em!

 

[wasp]

Superior new posters. Gota luv em!

There is nothing superior in my posting and nor am I trying to be. Just how, trying to enlighten newbies to study the markets and read between the lines is acting superior is beyond me. Maybe I should have waited 6 months then my first post an EA strat for free with a XX% success rate.

I arrived here and did a lot of reading and brought those threads back to light in hope discussions would further into the study of markets, unfortunately, only a handful here seem interested in learning so maybe the welcome message for new members should just have a link for Vince Stanzione and be done with it.

I'm off.

On a leaving note, this speaks volumes...

The ability to spot what is going on inside the bar is the important bit.

 

[littlemog]

Nice discussion going around. I think ultimately, the decision lies with each one of us. The fact that human nature is shaped to be such a stubborn bast***d means even if good profitable traders step up and teach the truths and tricks of the trade, we'll still see people crashing and burning every day.

As much you may want the 'newbies' to learn before they drive, many will unfortunately learn when they crash, and that in some cases will turn out to be the start of lesson 1 - delivered to them when they least want it.

 

[rawrschach]

I'm off.

Why? All those threads had a common element of dissenters, are you just going to ignore those that agree with your stance cuz someone got their panties in a twist?

 

[wasp]

Why? All those threads had a common element of dissenters, are you just going to ignore those that agree with your stance cuz someone got their panties in a twist?

LOL! Yeah but look what happened to those guys in the end! Socco got banned, and all the others go fed up with the constant crap they all left! Hell, even I was guilty of giving Socs stick although I have learnt a lot since then, but anyhow, I certainly don't blame him for not bothering! The masses really are too predictable.

 

[donaldduke]

On a leaving note, this speaks volumes...

Interesting you quote SOCRATES. On reading this thread i found your style of writing to be very similar to SOCRATES?? And then i get to bottom of the page and i see you quoting him???

 

[0007]

The micra (used) to be a very good car for its market niche.

And did you also know that this car is highly sought after by fairground operators? The reason being that if you attach an upright 8ft metal pole to its rear, you have an instant dodgem car.

 

[options]

And did you also know that this car is highly sought after by fairground operators? The reason being that if you attach an upright 8ft metal pole to its rear, you have an instant dodgem car.

What; and instantly increase its scrap value?

 

[PKFFW]

1: Learning to drive a car: I learnt to drive when I was 12 years old. At that time I did not know the priniciples behind why the accelerator pedal made the car speed up and the brake pedal made it slow down. However, at the end of my first lesson I was driving that car. Did my father teach me about the chemical/explosive properties of petrol as used for fuel? No. Did he teach me about the mechanics of the internal combustion engine? No. Did he even teach me about the dangers of driving at night or in wet and windy conditions and how to adapt to that? No. I needed to start somewhere and the mechanics involved in driving was the best place to start. After that, with experience, I was better able to read the conditions of the road, know when to speed up, slow down, ease into a bend or roar out the other side. No amount of studying a car's mechanics or operations would have taught me that and in fact would have served no useful purpose at all before I knew how the mechanics of driving worked.

2: Successful traders understand the market and don't just follow rules: I totally agree with you and agree that this is the end result all people who take trading seriously should be striving for. However, I know a couple of successful traders, have read about many more and have recently started to attain some degree of consistant profitability myself. No successful trader I know started out by studying the theory of the markets, the internal mechanices, attempting to get into the mindset of the market etc. They all started out by getting in there and doing it. By attempting to place profitable trades. Through doing, they learnt. Simple. As with the car example, learning the mechanics is the first place to start, whether that is BO's, IB's or whatever.

3: Reading price, volume, the order book, lv2 etc etc over any other way of trading: Frankly these are no more than tools just as any other thing is. I find it truly amusing in this business just how much emphasis is placed on the tools one chooses to use. Never do you hear a carpenter for example suggest that another carpenter is no good because they use one type of hammer over another. Tiger Woods will use the set of clubs produced by the company that pays him the most to use their clubs. He doesn't suggest Robert Allenby can't be a successful golfer because he chooses to use another brand of clubs!

4: The suggestion that there is some deeper meaning to this whole game: I agree with BSD, it's about making money. However one does that.
Like with the emphasis put on the tools, I also find it amusing how so very many successful traders like to make this business sound alot more complicated than it really is. I can only assume it comes down to ego really. I mean as a trader one really isn't contributing anything to society in a tangible way. Further, it's not really rocket science. So I guess one has to make one feel good about it however one can.
Take new_trader for example. He arrived here in January 2006 as a self confessed complete beginner. Through 2.5 years of his own personal study, hard work, trial and error, patience and dilligence he has become a successful trader. A feat worthy of respect. Let's put it into perspective though, he isn't a doctor with life and death decisions in his hands each day and years of required formal study under his belt to achieve the qualification to allow him to practice his craft. To even liken to it to such is laughable. He isn't a scientist furthering the field of human knowledge and fundamentally changing the way we view the world. People have been making money in the markets since they started around 400 years ago. He isn't a builder or artist creating things that will stand the test of time to viewed with awe by generations to come. In fact, just like the vast majority of humanity(myself included), he will probably be remembered only by his direct descendents and even then only for a few generations. What is he? Like the rest of those who are successful in the trading world(and there are millions of them around the world) he is simply someone who has learnt a way to make money from the flucations in price of his chosen trading instrument. Not really a major claim to fame is it? So I guess it is understandable that there is a need to make it sound alot harder and more mysterious than it really is.

5: "I was contemplating starting a thread on actual 'trading' but it seems no one here is interested and we are the minority.......": You don't think this smacks just a little of "superiority"? Especially coming from someone who has only been at the boards for about a month and has less than 20 posts, none of them actually saying much of anything specifically about trading? I realise you have only just joined the site but rather than starting off by making such a comment why not contribute something and see if anyone is interested? You accuse the "newbies" of having no idea about what is really important. That being the case is it any wonder they are asking the wrong questions and wanting the wrong things? Perhaps all that is required for many of those newbies is the gentle guiding hand of one as wise and knowledgable as yourself?

I think the message to new members is not about having links to Stanzione but rather to give a little something of substance before they start telling everyone they wont bother starting any topics about "actual trading" because no one is really interested in the vast wealth of true information that they imply they possess.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[Chorlton]

1: Learning to drive a car: I learnt to drive when I was 12 years old. At that time I did not know the priniciples behind why the accelerator pedal made the car speed up and the brake pedal made it slow down. However, at the end of my first lesson I was driving that car. Did my father teach me about the chemical/explosive properties of petrol as used for fuel? No. Did he teach me about the mechanics of the internal combustion engine? No. Did he even teach me about the dangers of driving at night or in wet and windy conditions and how to adapt to that? No. I needed to start somewhere and the mechanics involved in driving was the best place to start. After that, with experience, I was better able to read the conditions of the road, know when to speed up, slow down, ease into a bend or roar out the other side. No amount of studying a car's mechanics or operations would have taught me that and in fact would have served no useful purpose at all before I knew how the mechanics of driving worked.

2: Successful traders understand the market and don't just follow rules: I totally agree with you and agree that this is the end result all people who take trading seriously should be striving for. However, I know a couple of successful traders, have read about many more and have recently started to attain some degree of consistant profitability myself. No successful trader I know started out by studying the theory of the markets, the internal mechanices, attempting to get into the mindset of the market etc. They all started out by getting in there and doing it. By attempting to place profitable trades. Through doing, they learnt. Simple. As with the car example, learning the mechanics is the first place to start, whether that is BO's, IB's or whatever.

3: Reading price, volume, the order book, lv2 etc etc over any other way of trading: Frankly these are no more than tools just as any other thing is. I find it truly amusing in this business just how much emphasis is placed on the tools one chooses to use. Never do you hear a carpenter for example suggest that another carpenter is no good because they use one type of hammer over another. Tiger Woods will use the set of clubs produced by the company that pays him the most to use their clubs. He doesn't suggest Robert Allenby can't be a successful golfer because he chooses to use another brand of clubs!

4: The suggestion that there is some deeper meaning to this whole game: I agree with BSD, it's about making money. However one does that.
Like with the emphasis put on the tools, I also find it amusing how so very many successful traders like to make this business sound alot more complicated than it really is. I can only assume it comes down to ego really. I mean as a trader one really isn't contributing anything to society in a tangible way. Further, it's not really rocket science. So I guess one has to make one feel good about it however one can.
Take new_trader for example. He arrived here in January 2006 as a self confessed complete beginner. Through 2.5 years of his own personal study, hard work, trial and error, patience and dilligence he has become a successful trader. A feat worthy of respect. Let's put it into perspective though, he isn't a doctor with life and death decisions in his hands each day and years of required formal study under his belt to achieve the qualification to allow him to practice his craft. To even liken to it to such is laughable. He isn't a scientist furthering the field of human knowledge and fundamentally changing the way we view the world. People have been making money in the markets since they started around 400 years ago. He isn't a builder or artist creating things that will stand the test of time to viewed with awe by generations to come. In fact, just like the vast majority of humanity(myself included), he will probably be remembered only by his direct descendents and even then only for a few generations. What is he? Like the rest of those who are successful in the trading world(and there are millions of them around the world) he is simply someone who has learnt a way to make money from the flucations in price of his chosen trading instrument. Not really a major claim to fame is it? So I guess it is understandable that there is a need to make it sound alot harder and more mysterious than it really is.

5: "I was contemplating starting a thread on actual 'trading' but it seems no one here is interested and we are the minority.......": You don't think this smacks just a little of "superiority"? Especially coming from someone who has only been at the boards for about a month and has less than 20 posts, none of them actually saying much of anything specifically about trading? I realise you have only just joined the site but rather than starting off by making such a comment why not contribute something and see if anyone is interested? You accuse the "newbies" of having no idea about what is really important. That being the case is it any wonder they are asking the wrong questions and wanting the wrong things? Perhaps all that is required for many of those newbies is the gentle guiding hand of one as wise and knowledgable as yourself?

I think the message to new members is not about having links to Stanzione but rather to give a little something of substance before they start telling everyone they wont bother starting any topics about "actual trading" because no one is really interested in the vast wealth of true information that they imply they possess.

Cheers,
PKFFW

I would have recommended this post more than once if I could !!! Excellent Post!!

 

[wskanaan]

It's all about the bottom line

The fact is... we are in this for the money... if it is through shortcuts or through long term study... doesn't matter. In the end you want to see your account grow. Simple as that.