True ,but what non-trading desk is O.K. to join.I thought to try eltoro.:?:
True ,but what non-trading desk is O.K. to join.I thought to try eltoro.:?:
I think most trade with IG Index on here, and though far from perfect, they seem to be ok.. slippage aside
I think you make a very valid point Clasgolf! Things are never quite so transparent as they seem are they? We are fed the line that brokers make their profit from the spread but in reality they make their profit from the spread+extras... I also attempt to trade around news times but most brokers seem to add extra profit making tactics to their advertised standard 'spread profits'... Those tactics mainly are:-
1. Increased spread (I have seen +10 pips spread at news times) - not so much IG but other platforms - IG won't even get you in - you will get a 'Sorry, price is no longer valid' error if you hit the deal for an instant entry - making it impossible to enter a trade in a fast moving market on IG using their platform.
2. Slippage... Even slow moving markets seem to be a victim for some brokers that can take literally minutes before filling an order... But interestingly this only appears to happen when price is moving in your favour - you will never get slipped in at a preferential rate to you....
3. Trading platform too slow to execute the order at the given price... As per IG situation above! You would think an ideal trade is one to jump on hitting the 'deal' button when volatility is high... But guess what... Even with 1 click entry - this is still apparently too slow to get you in - giving an error.
4. Requotes - linked to above... If you get an error you can hit 'back' to see supposedly 'live prices' again and maybe even hit deal at the revised live price and get a second error / requote scenario! It does happen regularely...
Brokers are in it for the profit... During news releases they cannot hedge quick enough so their tactic is to present a range of hurdles to customers in order to prevent them from losing / protect their positions...
N.B this is very important.... These tactics are almost never shadowed or employed on their 'demo' accounts that are no threat to the broker.. Hence you can sometimes test a system under 'demo' and it appears profitable - yet begins to lose when tested on a live real money account...
This whole situation appears to get worse the higher the lot sizes you attempt to trade (I have direct experience of this)...
I have to say Clasgolf I am with you on this one...
I maybe cynical but I have +30 years trading experience behind me (not as full time job and not always profitable) - I have yet to find a broker that plays fair 100% of the time... Logically this makes sense because it is their business you are threatening...
The image presented to the customer is one of the broker can never lose (they profit from just the spread - right?) ... This is plainly false... If everyone went on one side of a trade at a given time the broker in accepting that trade (***IF*** - they accepted it!) would (could) potentially find themselves in negative territory very quickly as in the short term they would be forced into the opposing trade to balance their accounts...
So, from the business perspective - what measures could they employ to protect their position (and threaten yours in doing so...)? Scroll back to the beginning of this message for the answers!
Mel
goldfinger777
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And the award for longest rant on the NT forum goes to....
LOL, just kidding Mel, thanks for the post.
Regarding your comment about higher lot sizes:
"This whole situation appears to get worse the higher the lot sizes you attempt to trade (I have direct experience of this)... "
What sort of lot sizes are you talking about? £20/pt, £50/pt, or more?! Personally I can only dream at the moment (and I do LOL!) about stakes of this size, but hopefully one day I might be able to build my account up to the giddy heights of £20/pt or something!
So I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with the bigger lot sizes with regard to trading platform performance.
Tenapenny
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If you get to that point, wouldn't you go direct to save any shenannigans by certain sb companies.
goldfinger777
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What do you mean by "go direct"? Do you mean direct market access (DMA)? In which case persumably it's no longer considered to be spreadbetting, and therefore not tax-free?
Tenapenny
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Yes, but if you are so succesful and trading larger amounts it may be better to bite the bullet and trade properly, tax implications and all, to not suffer some of the underhand tricks of certain firms. You may make more money in the long term.
Lol! Not a rant but something to be aware of - especially to those that buy into the idea that sb companies make their profits purely from the spread... If you check their T's & C's properly you will notice that they give themselves the right to manipulate their quoted prices and refuse bets at quoted prices... So it is safe to surmise that sb quotes are linked to but are not the actual market prices...
Levels where things change? Well if you go much above £10 pip you will find entering a trade at the price you want more problematic during volatile times... I do not trade this level BTW! But the internet is a big place and you can easily research the experiences of others (many on this forum we are on!)... If you are fortunate enough to have made considerable profits in a short timescale your account will become 'watched' - again this can have implications getting filled at the price quoted - especially if your profits have occurred during volatile periods (at the sb companies expense) because sb companies cannot hedge their position quickly enough when a large number are on the +ve side of a quickly moving trade (eg around news release time)...
A common tactic (and effective one if carried out properly) to trade news is the straddle trade... On the face of it the sb company would surely loose out during this time? They would if they did not introduce other 'factors' to enable them to reduce their losses... So... Very often a straddle trade will not be filled at the entry price (slippage) or may not be filled at all (sb company not prepared to take on the liability as they cannot square up their position quickly enough)... As news releases can generate a big spike it can also be very difficult to exit the position (assuming you managed to enter!) quick enough and you can get exit slippage on the -ve side of the spike as the price retraces...
To go 'direct' is an option and as already highlighted here in the UK you would then be liable to pay capital gains tax on profits (although you can offset tax on losing trades) ... The business model of CFD's is different with commission on the trade rather than the spread being the major overheads... I would imagine that it is unlikely (not impossible) a sole trader would be in with the big boys - more likely it would be a group of traders / business that would use these services as they are very costly to use - not just the tax on profits... Although you would be treated in a much more transparent (fairer?) fashion with the ability to dictate your own prices etc...
MikesDirect
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Re: IG Slippage,
I did mention a few days ago that I get virtually no slippage now that I have bought a 'lightening fast' desktop PC that I use almost exclusively for trading - it really has made a heck of a difference!
Good day Ladies, Sirs & Lurkers.
Mike
I did mention a few days ago that I get virtually no slippage now that I have bought a 'lightening fast' desktop PC that I use almost exclusively for trading - it really has made a heck of a difference!
Good day Ladies, Sirs & Lurkers.
Mike
I can understand that the processing speed will help in situations when you hit the 'deal' button for instant market entry at the price quoted.... But if you are placing orders to open at a given price then surely as the order is already on the IG system this has nothing to do with PC speed - indeed you could leave the order to open with IG and shut the PC down and it will enter at the given price 'maybe' - or it will enter at the given price plus some slippage even when your PC is switched off... This is the situation that many here (myself included) suffer - sometimes even when the market is not so volatile and it can take minutes (not seconds or milli seconds) for IG to execute your order...
thelurker1
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MikesDirect
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Point taken Sir. However, if IG are sometimes taking minutes to fill an order, then that is clearly not acceptable for this trading style - in fact it's ludicrous! I can only suggest that you and any others experiencing extreme delays with IG filling orders should complain very loudly. I'd be interested in hearing of IG's reply!
Good day Sir,
Mike
MikesDirect
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Depends on my mood, nerve and/or gut instincts. Between £1 and £5 per pip.
Good day sir,
Mike
goldfinger777
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Well if I ever get to the fortunate point of being able to trade with £10 stakes i think I would split the trade between 2 SB providers if slippage becomes a problem.
So for example:
£5/pt with IG
£5/pt with ETX
(identical orders for both).
thelurker1
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What other sb firms do people recommend?
peterf1966
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Remember Mark'spreadsheet, and the compounding stake size, you could get to a million quid in 6-7 years? I did post at the time, that the SB companies would start to notice cosistent profit, and decline your account, just as the casino's will chuck out their successful poker players, by an offfer of free champagne from a big bloke in a tight suit.
Like those old doubling up systems which eventually might win you a pot of money, only to be hit by the 'house limit'. IG's terms - see part 24 on their terms pdf, means they can suspend a bet at any time, and by opening the account, means we have to accept this.
Although spread betting our small amounts wouldn't affect the market as such, if a really successful group (say us Nutters, one day) were consistently raking in money, at a decent £/pip amount, would IG or whoever, be laying this off somewhere in the market for the market to be affected?
Like those old doubling up systems which eventually might win you a pot of money, only to be hit by the 'house limit'. IG's terms - see part 24 on their terms pdf, means they can suspend a bet at any time, and by opening the account, means we have to accept this.
Although spread betting our small amounts wouldn't affect the market as such, if a really successful group (say us Nutters, one day) were consistently raking in money, at a decent £/pip amount, would IG or whoever, be laying this off somewhere in the market for the market to be affected?
Hi Mel,
It was really great to read your message.I thought maybe I was the only sucker.You have laid out the problem exactly and what happened to me was as you explained,particularly the fact that they cant counteract my trade in time.Instead of me making a good profit ,I had to scramble out of the trade on the eur.cad in case they took me for more.No more trading platforms for me and i wander if there was website we post this warning to all traders out there trying to make a little extra honestly?
How do you guys feel about trading with the non dealing platforms and has anyone tried to trade the high impact news? As a matter of interest with GFT global my trade was set to activate at 1.3170 when the market price was 1.3185.I anticipated the sell from trend and got zapped by these thieves.
