Probably Breaking Even???

It's also said that 95% of people lose. Now - these 95% of people that lose, they aren't just bleeding fees, they are losing capital.
DT

A Newb opens account up with £1000. Trades cable at £5 a point, pays 3 pip spread. Averages 5 trades a day.

In less than 3 weeks of trading the account has been completely eaten by fees.

Even after 1 week of trading the account is down almost 40% due to fees, so the Newb goes on tilt and blows most of the rest the next day.. he doesnt even last 3 weeks.

Even if the Newb has a bit more sense and only trades at £1 a point, the process will be the same except it will take about a month longer to play out.
 
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Have you ever considered this could be down to market maker activity. MM's accumulate
buy or sell orders by manipulating the markets, they hunt stops with false breaks and
false direction then release these orders for profit when the market sets off on its true
direction. This is certainly not random and thats why it will never be 50/50.

All IMHO and I know this won't be the most popular answer ;)
 
Yes Dazzer...

Here's the thing... Most of the comments on this thread so far are speculative. Still the speculations are fair based on what we 'think' newbies do.

Still, I lean towards there being a bit more to it than 'newbies make the following list of std mistakes'.

I think that the markets work in such a way that an edge is a rare thing indeed. One facet of this has already been put forward - the fact that a market order puts you offside.

I am wondering what other people think about the existence of dynamics of the market exist that work against edge.

Is leaning on 'psych issues'/'newbies chasing' etc. a bit too convenient?
 
I think that the markets work in such a way that an edge is a rare thing indeed. One facet of this has already been put forward - the fact that a market order puts you offside.

Surely that's only meaningful when the spread is large relative to the profit/loss of the trade you are taking. Although it contributes and is a cost we have to bear, it is variable and dependent on style/timeframe/size you are trading.
 
Is leaning on 'psych issues'/'newbies chasing' etc. a bit too convenient?

From my own experience, psychology was playing the most important role and still is. Probably that is the case with the majority.

IMO The markets are not random, so wouldn't worry too much about the spreads.
 
Is leaning on 'psych issues'/'newbies chasing' etc. a bit too convenient?

Its way too convinient..

This isnt a conspiracy theory, its simply a fact that there's a massive industry built on juicing traders (and T2W certainly plays its role in helping to achieve that aim). There's a lot of disinformation out there, and this thread is a great example of the way in which people who are actually ignorant, regurgitate stuff that sounds reasonable, but is simply not true when subjected to rigorous testing

Most people really dont appreciate just how MASSIVE a task it is overcoming transaction costs. Add in a bit of slippage, and some outright theft and it becomes almost impossible to beat a broker.

I've already mentioned the asymetry in gains needed to overcome losses, but for most traders there are also problems of asymetric leverage, being unable to round up or round down due to lot size constraints etc.

Then you have the tricks brokers play with the tools they provide. If they give you a facility, for example like a trailing stop, its because its going to do you more harm than good.

You have a non stationary time series, applying trivial technical analysis tools is pretty much pointless. Just look at the junk optimisation routines provided by charting providers. I find it rather amusing that if you determine an optimum set of parameters by walk forward optimisation for something basic like a MA cross, then you can pretty much guarentee that you'll get better results by fading the signal (and I know people who do this very successfully). Its almost like the markets applying a tax to the terminally stupid.

Hardly a week goes by without an intellectual pygmy suggesting that swapping the buy and sell signals for a losing EA will make them rich. The other argument is that you'd become rich by fading the calls of inexperienced traders.

Having said all that, I do believe that there is an element of psychological pre wiring that makes people lose. Ive taught my method to a few people, and in almost every case, initially when they are asked to trade with discretion, they do worse than random. This stuff is just inbuilt bias's, we dont like to be wrong, we want instant gratfication, we cant handle conditional probability and uncertainty etc etc. We play a negative sum game, and once you add in all of the stuff The Bramble raised, its little wonder that people fail.

If the reason that people failed was something that was inherently built into the structure of a market, then finding an edge would arguably be easier. You also have to remember that whilst the markets ****ing some guy taking 5 minute scalps, its also ****ing the guy taking 30 minute micro swings, and its ****ing the guy who's swing trading, and simultaneously ****ing position traders. Its a whore, and its objective is to **** as many people as it can, as quickly as it can. Thats partially why people get ****ed, but mainly its cos the games rigged that way.
 
If there were no spreads and no commissions, would the failure rate still be about the same? (say 90% or so)
I think it would.
 
If there were no spreads and no commissions, would the failure rate still be about the same? (say 90% or so)
I think it would.

Transaction costs have a MASSIVE impact.

One of the things I do with people that I've taught is to get them to look at their equity curves and then look at what their equity curves would have looked like if a spread had not been charged, then to look at exactly the same equity curve if they'd made jut 1 pip more per trade (i.e if they'd been paid the same as their broker !).

The effects are HUGE. Undertaking this exercise is a reasonable first stage in getting their expectations sorted out and clearing their mind of the polution and junk that sites such as t2w put in there to ensure that they and their partners profit, and you fail.

Its precisely at that stage that the penny drops, and they start to see what they need to do to make 100% per annum returns.

Forums such as this exist to promote that fact that broker transaction costs are trivial. Its a lie of massive proportions for which they are very well paid. In the absense of transaction costs some people would still fail due to stupidity, but it would be a damned site harder to do so.
 
Its almost like the markets applying a tax to the terminally stupid.
…and even the occasionally stupid…I have spare T-shirts if anyone wants one of mine.

And just when I thought I’d found the quote of the day…

If the reason that people failed was something that was inherently built into the structure of a market, then finding an edge would arguably be easier.

An excellent observation.

(Nice post Bunny.)

I don’t share your slant that the brokers are ‘out to get us’. It’s just a business and they have a good model.

And I’m still of the opinion that psychology plays little to no part in the problems (or successes) of trading – psychology is a function of, not a cause. Getting a ‘bad’ psychology ‘sorted’ will not turn crap trading methods into pure gold nor will it bestow the necessary market experience and intelligence which alone will allow one to prosper.

Newbies fail because they’re newbies who fail to bring intelligence, capital and risk management into the game. You’ll need those in order to last long enough to get the experience which is the final piece of the jigsaw.
 
If there were no spreads and no commissions, would the failure rate still be about the same? (say 90% or so)
I think it would.

I quoted the study by Ralph Vince in my post above.. even with a 60% win rate system and 0 transaction costs the failure rate was 95%. here it is again:


Ralph Vince did an experiment with forty Ph.D.s. He ruled out doctorates with a background in statistics or trading. All others were qualified. The forty doctorates were given a computer game to trade. They started with $1,000 and were given 100 trials in a game in which they would win 60% of the time. When they won, they won the amount of money they risked in that trial. When they lost, they lost the amount of money they risked for that trial.

Guess how many of the Ph.Ds had made money at the end of 100 trials? When the results were tabulated, only two of them made money. The other 38 lost money. Imagine that! 95% of them lost money playing a game in which the odds of winning were better than any game in Las Vegas. Why? The reason they lost was their adoption of the gambler's fallacy and the resulting poor money management
 
All

It's often said here (by me too) that if you trade at random with a co-equal stop and target, then you'll win 50% of the time & lose 50% of the time. Even if stop and target are different, that will just impact the win ratio but the result will still be break even.

It's also said that 95% of people lose. Now - these 95% of people that lose, they aren't just bleeding fees, they are losing capital.

So - what is the reason for this? If you don't know what you are doing, how can you lose more than half the time? How can you consistently do worse than random? Even if stop & target are different, the fact that your lack of knowledge makes your trading random, you should still break even.

First of all - I guess we'd better look at the 'random entry thing'...

Rule:
Enter at random on the ES with a market order & a 2 tick target & 2 tick stop.

Execution:
Bid = 1119.25, Offer 1119.50
Buy market - fill @ 1119.50.
Stop = 1119.00
Target = 1120.00

Now - the thing is, the tiny 1 tick spread on the ES has already put us at a disadvantage. We only need the market to tick down 1 tick and for a single trade to execute for us to stop out.

On the upside, we not only need the market to tick up 2 ticks but we also need for it to tick up and chew through enough contracts to be brought to get to our place in the queue. The way I trade, I don't think about it like that - I presume my target won't get filled until it moves through my target price.

So suddenly, you went from a 50/50 win/loss ratio to something else. You went from 2 tick stop and target to something else. A 1 tick down to stop you out and 3 ticks up to realistically get you filled on the upside.

Of course, one answer is to have larger stops & targets to dilute the impact of the spread. Still this is just an example of the in-built negative edge in the market.

Is this the only thing at play that causes people to lose so much money? Do other factors exist that cause thee 95% to lose so much instead of dicking around and breaking even?

What other factors are at play here? I'm talking about features of the market that causes newbies to do less than break even....

DT

My belief is that when a trader is ahead he wants more, so he does not close his trade while ahead.

When he loses, especially if he was ahead before, he believes he can, at the worst, cut his losses or ,at best, win again, especially as the market has shown him that it is capable of getting up there, having been there before.

In this way, the psychological challenges facing a trader are stacked against him so, what starts as a random 50/50 chance is balanced against him by his own character.

The trade is, in fact, biased in favour of a loss by the trader's actions and nothing to do with the dealers' murky character.
 
I quoted the study by Ralph Vince in my post above.. even with a 60% win rate system and 0 transaction costs the failure rate was 95%. here it is again:

The key thing to remember is "He ruled out doctorates with a background in statistics or trading"

I have an old CD somewhere where Van Tharp plays the same game with a room full of traders (mostly full time guys trading 7-8 figure accounts, and one or two idiots in there as well).

The results where pretty much as you'd expect. The majority knew the game had positive expectancy, and their position sizing strategies reflected that, a couple of people traded at optimal f etc. The idiots acted just like youd expect them too, and they lost money, but the majority where reasonably profitable.
 
Yes Dazzer...

Here's the thing... Most of the comments on this thread so far are speculative. Still the speculations are fair based on what we 'think' newbies do.

Ideally we would look at the spread bet accounts of newbies rather than speculate on what we think.

However i have no doubt we will see some common patterns, for day trading at least:

Most of the equity will have been lost in one or two final trades where no stop loss was used (or was pulled!)
Position size was probably the highest on these final few trades.
 
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From my own experience, psychology was playing the most important role and still is. Probably that is the case with the majority.

IMO The markets are not random, so wouldn't worry too much about the spreads.

I agree :)

IMO psychology plays 80% at least. It's a mind game for discretionary traders, that's why following the rules and MM is so important.

For example today, I was buying EU, instead of admitting that I was wrong and wait for price to cross a certain line to start buying. My perception is that it's gonna go up so I bought at cheaper price, which results in further loss. It's a mind game.

Spreads make it almost impossible to beat the brokers, but most brokers are good guys. Traders need to think of themselves first before blaming brokers.
 
Here's the thing... Most of the comments on this thread so far are speculative. Still the speculations are fair based on what we 'think' newbies do.
Far from speculative. I happen to know the newbie of whom I speak rather well...

My initial (multiple) beginnings were far too expensive an education for me to easily forget the lessons learned.
 
I agree :)

IMO psychology plays 80% at least
. It's a mind game for discretionary traders, that's why following the rules and MM is so important.

For example today, I was buying EU, instead of admitting that I was wrong and wait for price to cross a certain line to start buying. My perception is that it's gonna go up so I bought at cheaper price, which results in further loss. It's a mind game.

Spreads make it almost impossible to beat the brokers, but most brokers are good guys. Traders need to think of themselves first before blaming brokers.

'Most traders don't believe that their trading problems are the result of the way they think about trading or, more specifically, how they are thinking while they are trading' M Douglas
 
I think that the psychological element isn't very important at all, assuming you have a genuine 'edge' (which I believe hardly anyone has)
 
'Most traders don't believe that their trading problems are the result of the way they think about trading or, more specifically, how they are thinking while they are trading' M Douglas

Most traders lose.
 
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