Permanent edge

[Crap Buddist]

Put the beer and the keyboard down and walk slowly away from the computer.

oopps. the funny thing is wasp, (or not depending on ones stance of course) is that I have not had a brewski ! ??? As a judge mate ! :clap: one is just expressing oneself !

hmm are you suggesting I should have a few beers to "fit in" ? uh hu, I could do that...

 

[wasp]

yeah wasp nine wants to know how big your **** is.........:clap: well how big is it, and nine is that you in inches or cm's , I az got ta know !!! ???

Its not what you have, but how you use it! That edge malarkey again you see!

You know what the first question any trader should ask, (even before can he or does he identify the current trend is etc) is does he know he has to be a descretionary trader or system trader ? does he care or not? does it matter or not to him, the individual ? until he can answer that then ..... how does he know what path to set out upon ?

Come on, descretionary traders V system traders!!! what side you on ? both have their place in the market, but ones the predator the other prey....

But I think system traders are xxxxxxxx !

I just don't know how it is possible TBH.

yah back to this.. aint it funny, turn your chart upside down... stand on your head and look at yo screen... why the fuc dont the trader turn his opinion upside down ? isnt that easier/ a quicker solution ? :clap: people think they are SO important, they xxxxxxx themselves in the xxxxxx no ? keep flipping them charts.

The trader looking at the chart and trading isn't important is he (or she?) ? tradings important, the trader aint.. traders are dog food, chump chops..... whats it got to do with them ? a mechanical machine has more consideration than a trader surely ?

You can invert the chart and hopefully a trader might be enlightened to where he can be short or long, but I think its best to batter the xxxxxxxx.

Bit extreme but see your point

Permanent edge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is there such a thing?

NO



YES



NOW WHAT ?

Adapt and change!

Put the beer and the keyboard down and walk slowly away from the computer.

oopps. the funny thing is wasp, (or not depending on ones stance of course) is that I have not had a brewski ! ??? As a judge mate ! :clap: one is just expressing oneself !

hmm are you suggesting I should have a few beers to "fit in" ? uh hu, I could do that...

Not at all me ol mucker........ Unless you want to of course!

 

[new_trader]

J***z Wasp,

You should have defined edge to start with so we didn't get into another My Edge is bigger than your Edge fight.

Edge: A margin of superiority; an advantage: a slight edge over the opposition.

To me, it can't be any more obvious than the above definition. Having a 'system' doesn't give you the/an edge.

 

[jm99]

So in your book, anyone with a system has an edge. This means that someone selecting trades by flipping a coin has an edge?

lol that wouldnt fall under my definition of a trading system. it just semantics and pointless continuing the discussion

 

[new_trader]

lol that wouldnt fall under my definition of a trading system. it just symantics and pointless continuing the discussion

It isn't just se·man·tics.

Does your book spell it - symantics?

How does it define it?

This is too much...

 

[jm99]

good spot with the typo old boy......u get the drift

 

[Drill]

Your edge will never be any one particular system. The markets change too much over time.

It might not work just now because of lower volatility or any number of other reasons. It will probably work again at some point in the future.

The real edge is what separates the pros from the has beens and it's more to do with the full package than any one particular setup. Marcel Link summed it up quite well with the following list:

A Trader who has a good chance of success has the following attributes (Trader A):

Is properly capitalised
Treats trading like a business
Has a low tolerance for risk
Trades only when the market provides an opportunity
Can control emotions
Has a trading plan
Has a risk management plan
Is incredibly disciplined
Is focused
Has backtested his trading methods
Has superior information and/or analytical skills

A Trader who has a good chance of failure has the following attributes (Trader B):

Is undercapitalised
Lacks discipline
Overtrades
Does not understand the markets
Rushes into trades
Chases the market
Is afraid of missing a move
Is stubborn and marries a position or idea
Misinterprets news
Is always looking for home runs
Lets losers get too big
Takes winners prematurely
Takes trading too lightly
Takes large risks
Has little control over his emotions

The combination of positive traits that Trader A exhibits constitutes a major “edge” against the traits of Trader B.

 

[new_trader]

Your edge will never be any one particular system. The markets change too much over time.

Why would anyone want to enter an impossibly difficult profession that has a great financial and emotional cost in order to become proficient, when the skills they acquire won’t be permanent!?? I’m not that stupid. I expect to get better and better with time and experience. The markets might change for you, but not for me.

 

[the blades]

It isn't just se·man·tics.

Does your book spell it - symantics?

How does it define it?

This is too much...

from grafting away on nights, to a role as an unpaid internet bulletin board spell checker.

If he who shall not be named ever lets you off his leash, I suggest you find a better use for the untold wealth your cocksure attitude and edge must deliver to you.

UTB

 

[Drill]

Why would anyone want to enter an impossibly difficult profession that has a great financial and emotional cost in order to become proficient, when the skills they acquire won’t be permanent!?? I’m not that stupid. I expect to get better and better with time and experience. The markets might change for you, but not for me.

The point which you miss is the difference between what wasp originally meant by an "edge" - he was referring to some sort of "system" which had worked very well but stopped working. All systems" decay" over time, if you disagree it could be a point for a new thread.

You quite rightly mention the word "skills" which are basically what one develops in order to move from being more like the archetypal Trader B (most beginners) to someone more like Trader A (most pros). The edge is the skills and not the system (as defined by Wasp"). Over time you will hopefully develop more of these skills as you realise your way of doing things does not work.

I hope things get better for you new_trader. Sounds like you had a rough day /trading career. I never found it to have a great financial or emotional cost, but that was because of the skills i developed rather than being reliant on "systems"

Sleep well

 

[temptrader]

Why would anyone want to enter an impossibly difficult profession that has a great financial and emotional cost in order to become proficient, when the skills they acquire won’t be permanent!?? I’m not that stupid. I expect to get better and better with time and experience. The markets might change for you, but not for me.

This is an interesting point. Given that:

1) there are people who MAKE money from the markets
2) they KEEP their money
3) and they KEEP ON making money

one wonders how they do it? Or rather, just the thought that it is possible to do it, is sometimes enough. There you have it. It would be total utter suicide, financially anyway, to enter a profession that has elements that are totally beyond your control (i.e. the losing runs) and that could take most of your gains, not to mention the doubting and emotional burden that entails.

You see with systems you don't grow (i.e. get better and more proficient), you just tweek the variables, backtest some more, it's all rather brainless. For that reason alone systems CAN'T possibly work in the market. Because if they could, some people would be able to find them, use them, and be rich for the rest of their lives doing total f*ck all for it. (They also have the nasty side effects of draw downs and losing runs that you CANNOT really control.) The latter has not happened, although many advertising brochures might claim the contrary.

Now on the other hand if someone were to claim the fact that it is possible to satisfy the above 3 conditions but you have to go through a lot of pain, that you only get better slowly and after paying your dues, and that the light at the end of the tunnel only comes after a lot of effort and is very hard won, what would most people think?

Like I said before, we live in an instant gratification society. It's all about wanting things yesterday. It's all about making things faster, bigger, prettier, tinier, slimmer etc..... and a lot of dumbing down too. And in the haze of all that one forgets what it's really like to do things FOR REAL.

If I were to hold a view, it's that this forum is like the AA (Alcoholics Anonymous), EXCEPT instead of normal initiation, most members just say: "my name is so-and-so and I'm definitely NOT an alcoholic".

 

[nine]

OK. I'll start if no one else will.



My name is nine and I'm a dom addict

I have been sober now for ..... oh god ... I added it back in to paper trade a new strategy.

I'm a dom addict. I have been sober now for 1 minute.

 

[new_trader]

The point which you miss is the difference between what wasp originally meant by an "edge" - he was referring to some sort of "system" which had worked very well but stopped working. All systems" decay" over time, if you disagree it could be a point for a new thread.

You quite rightly mention the word "skills" which are basically what one develops in order to move from being more like the archetypal Trader B (most beginners) to someone more like Trader A (most pros). The edge is the skills and not the system (as defined by Wasp"). Over time you will hopefully develop more of these skills as you realise your way of doing things does not work.

I hope things get better for you new_trader. Sounds like you had a rough day /trading career. I never found it to have a great financial or emotional cost, but that was because of the skills i developed rather than being reliant on "systems"

Sleep well

I see. Interesting...thank you.

 

[jm99]

fwiw, i will clarify a bit more hopefully now i have some time. i trade a
portfolio of trend follwoinf and mean reversion systems over multiple timeframes, with
multiple instruments, 100% systematically. all systems have been fully
backtrsted, walk forward zzzz and have a positive expectancy. the systems have mechanical (but dynamic) rules regarding trend and volatility filters, this in itself is another system.
all position sizing/mm rules are coded into the systems........obviously you
can see i am bias towards trading systems and i regard this as an
"edge".....pre-supposing the system is traded with proper
capital, in a business like manner, not deviating from the system rules etc etc (ie all of
the other "trader A" attributes in drills excellent post), hence my comments
re edge/systems. others clearly do not presuppose such things when referring to trading system. the interesting thing for me about these types of forums and the reason i do not usually get involved
is the huge amount of time and energy peeps spend debating a topic only
to discover they ultimately agree and have been arguing about different
meanings/definitions or interpretations of meanings/definitions ie arguing about semantics lol all imo fwiw. good trading all.

 

[tar]

...

 

[new_trader]

Why would anyone want to enter an impossibly difficult profession that has a great financial and emotional cost in order to become proficient, when the skills they acquire won’t be permanent!?? I’m not that stupid. I expect to get better and better with time and experience. The markets might change for you, but not for me.

An interesting read and almost 12 months later my attitude hasn't changed, instead it is reinforced.