Overtrading!!

[pelzar]

Recently I have been finding myself over trading, where as before I was trading well... ' waiting for levels, breakouts etc...' I am now finding myself trading for the sake of trading, the market (FTSE) may be in no mans land and going sideways, however I still insist on trading and consequently doing my ****, and being stopped out for the day. Which means I can't even trade when I see great set ups (yesterday for example) I know I am doing it but still seem to jump in the market at any given opportunity with fear of missing a profit.

I was wondering if anyone else had had this problem and if so, how you overcame it? I know there are alot of very good traders on this website and It would be great to get your advice and maybe even help on this matter.


Thanks

Pelzar!!

 

[rols]

Recently I have been finding myself over trading, where as before I was trading well... ' waiting for levels, breakouts etc...' I am now finding myself trading for the sake of trading, the market (FTSE) may be in no mans land and going sideways, however I still insist on trading and consequently doing my ****, and being stopped out for the day. Which means I can't even trade when I see great set ups (yesterday for example) I know I am doing it but still seem to jump in the market at any given opportunity with fear of missing a profit.

I was wondering if anyone else had had this problem and if so, how you overcame it? I know there are alot of very good traders on this website and It would be great to get your advice and maybe even help on this matter.


Thanks

Pelzar!!

1. Restrict yourself to 3 trades a day or just EOD

2. Get yourself a thick gardening glove so it's impossible to hit the right keys.
That way you will have to physically take the thing off to make a trade and hopefully remind yourself why you had it on.

3. Phone your orders through to your broker (most offer this service)

4. If neither of the above work do an online OCD test and see whether you actually have the correct mindset to be trading. Many gamblers have this condition and actually enjoying losing as much as winning.

 

[pelzar]

Right, Rols... took the test and thankfully no OCD!! With regards to phoning my orders through; I am trading for a firm and so I am trading using TT!! No other means of execution. Therefore it looks as if I am in need of a pair gardening gloves (can't wait to see the risk managers face when I stroll in looking like Alan Titmarsh.)

Thanks

Pelzar (just popped out to homebase)

 

[Vaco]

i did an ocd test out of curiosity lmao i scored 0/20

question? Is it still called over trading if the trades make a profit or is it just the tag we give to our c*ck up trades that we entered because it looked like an oportunity but was not really part of our trding plan.

I call it impulse trades and the cure is to act as if your strategy is a religion you must do everything it states and nothing else

 

[pelzar]

0/20, I got the same score - does that make us slobs?!!

 

[rols]

Right, Rols... took the test and thankfully no OCD!! With regards to phoning my orders through; I am trading for a firm and so I am trading using TT!! No other means of execution. Therefore it looks as if I am in need of a pair gardening gloves (can't wait to see the risk managers face when I stroll in looking like Alan Titmarsh.)

Thanks

Pelzar (just popped out to homebase)

I used to bite my nails without being aware of it, usually while watching telly, so I started wearing gloves and found myself unconsciously chewing at my marigolds. It worked!

Problem with the over trading thing that I reckon one can get into the 'wrong Zone' so that's why the prop might work.

Let me know how it goes!

 

[MrGecko]

Question 4) let me down.

 

[TheTick]

Recently I have been finding myself over trading, where as before I was trading well... ' waiting for levels, breakouts etc...' I am now finding myself trading for the sake of trading, the market (FTSE) may be in no mans land and going sideways, however I still insist on trading and consequently doing my ****, and being stopped out for the day. Which means I can't even trade when I see great set ups (yesterday for example) I know I am doing it but still seem to jump in the market at any given opportunity with fear of missing a profit.

I was wondering if anyone else had had this problem and if so, how you overcame it? I know there are alot of very good traders on this website and It would be great to get your advice and maybe even help on this matter.


Thanks

Pelzar!!

Put your mouse in a drawer or something - that way you have to actually retrieve it, rather than just hover over it the whole time.

Or, set an alarm to go off every 20 mins or so, then stop trading for 10.

Personally, when I had the same problem, I started writing out my trades in detail (date, time, entry, stop, exit, onside, offside, reason, p&l) and didn't let myself put another trade on until I'd finished. Doesn't work in a fast market, though - just can't write quick enough!

 

[Crap Buddist]

process of elimination,

Office factor, noise distractions ? move into own space, get earplugs listen to /hear no one,

method- who has taught you what - are you 100% with it.

Traders twitch- are you being enticed on market price movements (hunting on sight)

competion worries, ie other bods spanking it and you feel you have to "be as good" .

I think there can be a number of reasons for why we are not performing effeciently essentially from these few...

Ego/human issues
Knowledge issues
Environment issues.


Any idea which are relevant ? or any others you may think of or noticed ..

 

[nine]

Pelzar,

CB's "Traders twitch- are you being enticed on market price movements (hunting on sight)" reminded me of something I do. When the market (I trade 2 markets on sub 5 min bars) is not in the region of a setup I define the next setup and move away from my trading chair. Physically I sit on a couch and read or listen to music, within visual range of the screen so I can see if anything changes dramatically, but not close enough to spot an unruly opportunity.

It helped me reduce overtrading (as does repeatedly reminding myself that active patience pays).

 

[tomorton]

pelzar -

Its a problem everyone faces sooner or later - sometimes due to chasing losses, other times its due to a feeling of invincibility after a good run. I have certainly been overtrading myself lately and have had to make a real conscious effort only to trade on the signals I find reliable, as long as the position would be WITH THE TREND. The 'trend-following only' stipulation immediately removes two thirds of the trades I would have taken and probably a disproportionate number of my bigger losers.

 

[timsk]

Hi pelzar,
My suggestion would be to step back a timeframe or two. What looks like a great set up in a 5 minute timeframe is just noise in, say, a 30 minute timeframe.
As a matter of interest, given that you're in a prop' firm, what's the advice you've been given by your colleagues and managers?
Tim.

 

[pelzar]

Tim,

I spoke to my manager this morning and he had me do an excercie where before every trade I write down my reason for getting in the trade, where my stop is, where my target is etc...

As much as this helpe, I still found myself jumping into trades; so I shall carry this on next week and with practise and routine I would hope to reduce the jumping in.

Thanks

 

[fernanj]

Recently I have been finding myself over trading, where as before I was trading well... ' waiting for levels, breakouts etc...' I am now finding myself trading for the sake of trading, the market (FTSE) may be in no mans land and going sideways, however I still insist on trading and consequently doing my ****, and being stopped out for the day. Which means I can't even trade when I see great set ups (yesterday for example) I know I am doing it but still seem to jump in the market at any given opportunity with fear of missing a profit.

I was wondering if anyone else had had this problem and if so, how you overcame it? I know there are alot of very good traders on this website and It would be great to get your advice and maybe even help on this matter.


Thanks

Pelzar!!

Plezar - believe me this is not just happening to you! - it will happen and has happened to all that venture into this business.
Consider this as part of the learning curve...but ,and I mean this is a big BUT!!... you should not repeat the same (deliberate) mistake over and over again.

Try this and it worked for me when I had suffered the symptom, I assume you have a trading plan/system, before you put on a trade write down on paper your systems qualifying points that would prompt you to trade. You only trade if you have managed to tick off all the qualifying points listed on paper as you read the chart/s.

If the above is NOT met than you do not trade...plain and simple!!
Good luck

Joe

 

[nine]

Tim,

I spoke to my manager this morning and he had me do an exercise where before every trade I write down my reason for getting in the trade, where my stop is, where my target is etc...

As much as this helpe, I still found myself jumping into trades; so I shall carry this on next week and with practise and routine I would hope to reduce the jumping in.

Thanks

See if you can add some means of physically making it hard to jump in (shut down the dom, put the mouse under something, anything create a barrier to make "entering the trade" require slightly more conscious thought.

Other things to think about:

"What have I been doing that prevents me from appropriately considering the situation and is causing me to act in ways contrary to my interests?"

Self-control problems occur because people are caught up “in the moment’’ and are distracted from their long-term goals. It is boosted when people conjure up powerful memories of the things they value in life.
so:
What do I have to be doing now? What is my state? What state do I need to be in? Think about something you value.

 

[Crap Buddist]

I spoke to my manager this morning and he had me do an exercise where before every trade I write down my reason for getting in the trade, where my stop is, where my target is etc...

As much as this helpe, I still found myself jumping into trades; so I shall carry this on next week and with practise and routine I would hope to reduce the jumping in.

Rules of engagement. (trial and error reasoning & practices (in order to develop a method) aside) I would of thought this basic step should be in place before a trader even considers "engaging" .

So if it is, then is it knowledge of suitable rules of engagement that are lacking or need improving?

Or the rules being worked with are known but we do not trust them?

Or the rules are known we do trust them, but we still find ourselves being drawn into battle and we are beaten. ?

*The latter I think is due to exploitation of the typical human condition ,who is drawn mainly to hunt on sight, a bit like the instinct of a cat seeing a bird land and flap close by, the cat will then look to attack. A trader might be enticed to attack a price popping out of a tight range with the feelings of "this is the breakout" only to be shafted as the price then whips the other side!

Development of observation will help. (6-12 months ?) Of course all this desire needs to come from within the individual. No one can give that to a person. mm maybe the idea of the desire can be sold, hence clever marketeers....

Once knowledge is cool, environment is cool (suitable to allow observation to develop and function without distracting the observer) then it might just be down to seeing how the human typically is conditioned to act, being aware of that and training yourself to act when the market acts and not when the market wants you to act.


*Now if what governs the market to act is a simple as "weight of clients money" building at level x therefore we will steal this, then just replace that into the possible reason why a market actually acts the way it does as opposed to a collective functioning entity that does not solely rely on exploitation of clients money as opposed to clients behaviour. Maybe thats a chicken and egg thing. I don't dwell on it but its a valid Q i think.

Maybe thats the reason. Over trading = under knowledged. Has to be?

 

[jayjay121]

i think it sounds like you have a discipline issue, have you got written rules or a plan of action you strictly follow with very specific rules for entry and exit?...

when scalping i use fixed profit targets and once my stop is set 1 tick away from pivot i just roll away on my chair away from the screen so i cannot be tempted to adjust anything, working so far, i too had your problem and always move my stop because i felt it would eventually turn around, sometimes it did but i learnt that in the long run it was a very un comfortable experience and way of trading, once you can trust yourself to act in your best interest you will actually enjoy and look forward to the trading day.

 

[Crap Buddist]

i think it sounds like you have a discipline issue, have you got written rules or a plan of action you strictly follow with very specific rules for entry and exit?...

when scalping i use fixed profit targets and once my stop is set 1 tick away from pivot i just roll away on my chair away from the screen so i cannot be tempted to adjust anything, working so far, i too had your problem and always move my stop because i felt it would eventually turn around, sometimes it did but i learnt that in the long run it was a very un comfortable experience and way of trading, once you can trust yourself to act in your best interest you will actually enjoy and look forward to the trading day.

Yeah I dont know if pelzar is engaged in scalping or daytrading, Daytrading in my experience typically last from 30 minutes to 12 -14 hours Ive found. from 10 points to a few hundred. Again that is a knowledge component I see of where the individual feels he needs ot be. Due to the length of some trades I assume prop shops teach a shorter time span trade unless the traders can access prop shop platforms from home or they can sleep on site? No idea on that....

But depending on where the trader feels he or she needs to be . That can make a huge difference to positioning them to function to deliver on objectives. That alone may take 1 or 2 years ? (waiting for them to self find, unless taught otherwise?)unless someones gotta a hard on for I know this is it from the off.....

Hence knowing the problem is the solution. I can see a number of avenues, but until the problem is known? So what is the problem?

 

[gabriel lavelle]

Overtrading

Hello Pelzar

I have done this many times & each time I wake up to wahat I'm doing I put a self imposed No Trading for a set amount of days until I find out WHY I'm doing it

The reasons that I personally have uncovered are:

1 Fear of not being successful & at that point I usually do my dough

2 Greed On a roll & think its going to last forever & at that point I do my dough

3 Bored - Very dangerous & take silly risks

4 Not feeling 100% & still persist - will always lose money like this

And I'm sure there is a host more

Howevere what has saved me over the last 3 years is that I am a good money manager & never risk more that 1-2% of my trading captal on any one trade - I did at the beginning & learnt

Good book to read is Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas Go easy on yourself & trade one trade at a time forget everything else

All the best Gabriel

Recently I have been finding myself over trading, where as before I was trading well... ' waiting for levels, breakouts etc...' I am now finding myself trading for the sake of trading, the market (FTSE) may be in no mans land and going sideways, however I still insist on trading and consequently doing my ****, and being stopped out for the day. Which means I can't even trade when I see great set ups (yesterday for example) I know I am doing it but still seem to jump in the market at any given opportunity with fear of missing a profit.

I was wondering if anyone else had had this problem and if so, how you overcame it? I know there are alot of very good traders on this website and It would be great to get your advice and maybe even help on this matter.


Thanks






Pelzar!!

 

[sun]

I think that many traders think of trading as a full time job, like a 9 to 5.
You turn up for work and feel the need to get on with it. If you have been at work for half an hour and haven't made any trades because you have not seen any great setups, you start to feel bored or unproductive and panic or nervousness sets in. Trading is unlike most other jobs imho. If you had to tear down the shed or put up shelves you would just get on with it.

In trading you cannot do that because you are at the mercy of the market and your trading activity is governed by the market, the market may be flat or low volume and not doing much. Trying to trade in this kind of environment will be difficult and will usually lead to overtrading as you get chopped around.

In trading, most of my time is spent watching the market and letting it come into my comfort zone before I place the trade. In a sense, most of my time is spent not really doing anything. This is contrary to how we perform most other jobs where we like to actively get on with it.

I think the inner feeling we have to just get on with it lies at the root of overtrading, for me anyway.

I like to take a moment to consider the risk, stop level ,target and setup before I get in. If I am afraid that the market is going to run away from me in the 1 minute (or less) that it takes me to consider these factors and I jump into the trade, it is usually a bad decision and a bad trade. This is why I keep a simple trading checklist and use it before placing my trade. It has helped me to cure my overtrading.

In summary I would say that trading requires patience, discipline and a rule based approach. For me this has been the cure for overtrading (so far !!)