GruntnoWay
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Great article thanks
Just to clarify on the Updata charts:
Red line is the Ichimoku Turning line and you can vary the parameters on this.
Blue line is the Standard Line
The Black lines are Span 1 and Span two but its a pity they didn't distinguish between them!
Green Line is the Lagging Span.
You can get all these by opening the price display window onto the chart!
I'm currenly experimenting with setting the span at the proportions of the optimised moving averages
Regards
N.
Red line is the Ichimoku Turning line and you can vary the parameters on this.
Blue line is the Standard Line
The Black lines are Span 1 and Span two but its a pity they didn't distinguish between them!
Green Line is the Lagging Span.
You can get all these by opening the price display window onto the chart!
I'm currenly experimenting with setting the span at the proportions of the optimised moving averages
Regards
N.
GruntnoWay
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i hope the new manual clarifies this. I think the individual spans are not important. what is important is that they make up the Kumo. I am using fib numbers 8 21 have also tried 8 13 but everything i read says don't change them. I love new toys.
There's a discussion going on in another place about how to "approximate" the clouds without having the software to do it "properly". It's been suggested that they are approximately represented by the area between a 24-period EMA right-shifted by 24 periods and a 48-period EMA right-shifted 48 periods. These figures may be derived from original Ichimoku parameters laid down in the 1970's when the Japanese markets also traded on Saturdays, i.e. on the basis of a 6-day week. In which case they should now be taken as a 20-period EMA right-shifted by 20 periods and a 40-period EMA right-shifted by 40 periods, perhaps? Does anyone here have enough understanding of the "clouds" to have a view on this?
I have read the similar things about clouds (kumo) settings and japanese market timings...
From what i have read, the challenge is to how can one use these charts in modern trading world....like forex etc....
Where is this other place??...is there a link....
Perhpas someone can post a chart to explain the thought process...
I hope Updata users don't mind me posting MS charts here, as the real discussion is about ichomoku and not software used....
From what i have read, the challenge is to how can one use these charts in modern trading world....like forex etc....
Where is this other place??...is there a link....
Perhpas someone can post a chart to explain the thought process...
I hope Updata users don't mind me posting MS charts here, as the real discussion is about ichomoku and not software used....
GruntnoWay
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....ahhhh so kind...from a columnist's mouth, no less....
This is becoming a very good discussion ...better than many other sites who are also discussing the same subject.....
sorry, I am back from a **** up with friends...so slurry text probably...
all the best.....
....
This is becoming a very good discussion ...better than many other sites who are also discussing the same subject.....
sorry, I am back from a **** up with friends...so slurry text probably...
all the best.....
....
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Thanks for the chart....GruntnoWay said:
...I note that candles (or bars for that matter) finish at some stage in middle of December....but ichimoku cloud extend beyond the candles (or bars for that matter)....
How is that possible..?..or is there something that is obvious, but I am missing..?
zambuck said:
I understand that the clouds are projected forwards from the existing data. If you like, two trends are being extracted, a longer and a shorter and then shifted right. The space between these two (if any) becomes the cloud and also an indicator of support/resistance in perhaps a more dynamic way than the usual horizontal lines or bands.
I've taken the candles out of mine for the moment and substituted a line (which Updata allows) so that I can more clearly see the interactions between the various lines. I'm running it on a share I've been in for a long time and revisiting the trades I made to see whether I might have take a different view using this method........dangerous but interesting.
I have no particular objection to this thread morphing into a general Ichimoku thread. The exchange of ideas and information is very interesting.
Thanks to everyone for their responses
Regards
N.
I suppose I ought to add that I see the existance of a cloud as indicating an area of uncertainty since it is expressing the difference or disagreement between two trend lines. Upadata helpfully shades the more positive blue and negative red.
Hope this helps?
N.
Hope this helps?
N.
GruntnoWay
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Perfect explanation Nildes. It's what I understand too. Without the cloud projecting forward the chart loses one of it's main components. What I like about Updata is that they do things right. Zambuck mentions Metastock does not project the cloud forward. That seems a half-hearted approach to me.
I am going to make money with these charts in the new year. I have also been revisiting my trades particularly dow and s&p on a 1min and 15min basis. Its very very interesting. Actually I have seen no words written on whether they can be used on intra day data, but first results are that they can very effectively.
I am going to make money with these charts in the new year. I have also been revisiting my trades particularly dow and s&p on a 1min and 15min basis. Its very very interesting. Actually I have seen no words written on whether they can be used on intra day data, but first results are that they can very effectively.
Gruntnoway, I was wondering about timescales too. Clearly, scaling the timescales down doesn't disturb the relative relationship between the leading and the following trends....so it ought to still work ;o)
I'm a very visual person when looking at charts & am finding the cloud formations are giving me some interesting insights into my previous thinking about many aspects.
I suppose, if you get reliable signals from the charts which work for you, then the system proves itself.
(I hesistate to say "proof of the pudding etc" this close to Christmas!
Regards
N.
I'm a very visual person when looking at charts & am finding the cloud formations are giving me some interesting insights into my previous thinking about many aspects.
I suppose, if you get reliable signals from the charts which work for you, then the system proves itself.
(I hesistate to say "proof of the pudding etc" this close to Christmas!
Regards
N.
Gruntnoway
Hmmmm….I am not sure if I share your confidence in Updata or for that matter if Metastock has done things half heartedly…
I am also not too sure if Metastock has got it wrong….or for that matter if Updata has got it right either…
We will discuss the ‘projection’ of clouds later but first let’s look at chart itself…
If we take default settings of ichimoku charts for discussion then following are the settings I had used in my chart earlier…
Tenkan-sen - 9 periods
Kijun-sen - 26 periods
Sensou span - 52 periods
Chikou span - 26 periods
Horizontal shift - 26 periods
According to the article of Ken Muranaka and presuming he is right ! then we have following to consider….
If we take the formulae of 1st preceding span then it is
Standard line + Turning line/2
Computed 26 days ahead of today.
If we take the formulae of 2nd preceding span then it is
Highest High + Lowest Low/2 (for past 52 days)
Computed 26 days ahead of today.
Lets look at Updata’s chart now….
If we take Kijun-sen as a Standard line, then that is green line on Updata’s chart. Hhowever if you notice, the Span line at the top of ‘blue’ cloud in November, it is a carbon copy of Kijun-sen but shifted few days ahead.. What Updata seems to have done is that they have shifted the Kijun-sen line and they have called it a Span line or lines that define ‘kumo’.
That can’t be right….as the formation of cloud will be wrong entirely….These two lines will not be a carbon copy as the formulae above proves it…
If I were you, I would resist ‘putting money’ using Updata’s ichimoku charts as they have a major mathematical exercise pending..!!
Regarding projecting the kumo and spans in future, I am not sure that it will be possible unless, Tenkan-sen and Kijun-sen are also projecting into future as these form part of the calculations….And can these project into future..?..They can shift, perhaps, but not project. I may be wrong here…!
In fact I am not sure that ichimoku charts have to project into future as one can always look at Chikou-span which is delayed (mid point) close line….Because the spans have already been ‘projected’ into future by 26 days anyway….so I presume one must just read it off delayed price line..
Question is what is the purpose of Chikou-span?
I add MS chart showing the same chart as posted by Nildes for comparison…
Few links to ichimoku charting sites..
http://www.prosticks.com/education/ikh.php
http://www.fxstreet.com/education/a30.asp
http://www.forexdealer.net/help/ichm_hlp.htm
All the best…!!
Hmmmm….I am not sure if I share your confidence in Updata or for that matter if Metastock has done things half heartedly…
I am also not too sure if Metastock has got it wrong….or for that matter if Updata has got it right either…
We will discuss the ‘projection’ of clouds later but first let’s look at chart itself…
If we take default settings of ichimoku charts for discussion then following are the settings I had used in my chart earlier…
Tenkan-sen - 9 periods
Kijun-sen - 26 periods
Sensou span - 52 periods
Chikou span - 26 periods
Horizontal shift - 26 periods
According to the article of Ken Muranaka and presuming he is right ! then we have following to consider….
If we take the formulae of 1st preceding span then it is
Standard line + Turning line/2
Computed 26 days ahead of today.
If we take the formulae of 2nd preceding span then it is
Highest High + Lowest Low/2 (for past 52 days)
Computed 26 days ahead of today.
Lets look at Updata’s chart now….
If we take Kijun-sen as a Standard line, then that is green line on Updata’s chart. Hhowever if you notice, the Span line at the top of ‘blue’ cloud in November, it is a carbon copy of Kijun-sen but shifted few days ahead.. What Updata seems to have done is that they have shifted the Kijun-sen line and they have called it a Span line or lines that define ‘kumo’.
That can’t be right….as the formation of cloud will be wrong entirely….These two lines will not be a carbon copy as the formulae above proves it…
If I were you, I would resist ‘putting money’ using Updata’s ichimoku charts as they have a major mathematical exercise pending..!!
Regarding projecting the kumo and spans in future, I am not sure that it will be possible unless, Tenkan-sen and Kijun-sen are also projecting into future as these form part of the calculations….And can these project into future..?..They can shift, perhaps, but not project. I may be wrong here…!
In fact I am not sure that ichimoku charts have to project into future as one can always look at Chikou-span which is delayed (mid point) close line….Because the spans have already been ‘projected’ into future by 26 days anyway….so I presume one must just read it off delayed price line..
Question is what is the purpose of Chikou-span?
I add MS chart showing the same chart as posted by Nildes for comparison…
Few links to ichimoku charting sites..
http://www.prosticks.com/education/ikh.php
http://www.fxstreet.com/education/a30.asp
http://www.forexdealer.net/help/ichm_hlp.htm
All the best…!!
Attachments
I thought I should check the metastock ichimoku charts against the formulae for Spans...
See the charts and the values...
They tie in precisely as the formulae....
On 9 Nov
Tenkan-sen = 1145.575
Kijun-sen = 1130.375
Add these and divide by 2 and compute 26 days ahead (incl 9 Nov) = 1137.975
That is the value of Senkou Span on 15 Dec = 1137.975
So Metastock chart computes the lines correctly as formulae.....
See the charts and the values...
They tie in precisely as the formulae....
On 9 Nov
Tenkan-sen = 1145.575
Kijun-sen = 1130.375
Add these and divide by 2 and compute 26 days ahead (incl 9 Nov) = 1137.975
That is the value of Senkou Span on 15 Dec = 1137.975
So Metastock chart computes the lines correctly as formulae.....
Attachments
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Hi Zambuck,
I've attached a chart of GSPC which hopefully should look much like yours?
I was going to say that we ought to agree on some basic colour schemes before we start comparing charts because I don't know about anyone else on these boards but I find life difficult enough without having to try and work out which line is which?
I'll come back with some statistics for you to look at at some stage tomorrow or soonest. Right now it's time for bed.
Regards
Mayfly
I've attached a chart of GSPC which hopefully should look much like yours?
I was going to say that we ought to agree on some basic colour schemes before we start comparing charts because I don't know about anyone else on these boards but I find life difficult enough without having to try and work out which line is which?
I'll come back with some statistics for you to look at at some stage tomorrow or soonest. Right now it's time for bed.
Regards
Mayfly
Attachments
Thanks Mayfly...
But this chart is still incorrect.....issue is not about colour or anything like that....The span lines are not computed as it should be.....
Any span line will never be a shifted carbon copy of kijun-sen (standard line).....
Well have a good rest...and talk to you tomorrow.....
But this chart is still incorrect.....issue is not about colour or anything like that....The span lines are not computed as it should be.....
Any span line will never be a shifted carbon copy of kijun-sen (standard line).....
Well have a good rest...and talk to you tomorrow.....
Zambuck,
Some of the commentaries suggest that the 26 periods refer to the number of trading days in a pre-war Japanese month.
They suggest variously that this might need to be modified to take into account the trading days of the stock you are interested in or, the total traded time if it is a stock that is traded around the globe or the clock.
Updata does present the opportunity to vary the 26 periods from 0-100+ and also the turning line. However, if you change the turning line, it changes all the other spans to match....which highlights the calculation issue you point to.
Since all these lines represent one or another form of moving average, then I would suggest that, providing Gruntnoway backtests his ideas, the internal method of calculation isn't as important as finding a working fit.
I would also suggest that, individually, none of these MA's are particularly exciting, its the way they have been combined and interpreted that gives the interest.
Regards
N.
Some of the commentaries suggest that the 26 periods refer to the number of trading days in a pre-war Japanese month.
They suggest variously that this might need to be modified to take into account the trading days of the stock you are interested in or, the total traded time if it is a stock that is traded around the globe or the clock.
Updata does present the opportunity to vary the 26 periods from 0-100+ and also the turning line. However, if you change the turning line, it changes all the other spans to match....which highlights the calculation issue you point to.
Since all these lines represent one or another form of moving average, then I would suggest that, providing Gruntnoway backtests his ideas, the internal method of calculation isn't as important as finding a working fit.
I would also suggest that, individually, none of these MA's are particularly exciting, its the way they have been combined and interpreted that gives the interest.
Regards
N.
