Multicharts Lifetime License - for Sale

Doesn't matter what you say, in most cases, selling software
is against the EULA, end of.


So only your opinion counts?

Being able to resell your own digital software is still a grey area, whether you like it or not. A company can write whatever it wants in the small print, but it cannot remove basic consumer rights without risking prosecution. That's why its a sticky wicket and not many companies would risk going to court.

“The 'good news' is that a court may invalidate boilerplate [the small print] if it finds a party lacked meaningful choice and the terms unreasonably favor the other, or if it violates an important public policy. Radin, however, contends that this does not happen often enough. In fact, she believes that because boilerplate terms aren't bargained over or consented to in any normal fashion, they aren't even contracts.”

From book: Boilerplate The Fine Print, Vanishing Rights, and the Rule of Law Margaret Jane Radin

Its also an ethical issue as only 1 in 14 buyers actually read the small print:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/may/11/terms-conditions-small-print-big-problems

Therefore companies can expect to have the small print tested in court if it is deemed unreasonable.

The UK goverment is currently looking into ways of protecting consumer rights with digital products.

CONSUMER RIGHTS IN DIGITAL PRODUCTS - Professor Robert Bradgate Institute for Commercial Law Studies, University of Sheffield.

In 2009 the then UK government, in its White Paper, “A Better Deal for
Consumers” committed itself to a high level of consumer protection in relation to
digital products, undertaking to ensure that "the core principles of consumer
protection" apply to sales of digital products. Those core principles seem
reasonably to be identified as the implied terms contained in sections 12 to 15 of
the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the corresponding provisions of other statutes
governing the supply of goods.


Sale of Goods Act 1979

Summary

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 provides four main protections for buyers:

1. The seller must have the right to sell the goods ( S.12)

2. Goods sold by description must correspond to the description (S.13)

3. Goods must be of satisfactory quality (s.14)

4. Goods sold by sample, the goods must correspond to the sample in quality (s.15)

There is also debate about whether a digital product can be licensed but not owned.

U.S. Court: Software is Owned, Not Licensed
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/AutoCAD-Autodesk-Court-License-Software,news-4806.html


So you were overcapitalised when you started, yet still listed software
for sale here for £250 only 4 months ago - do me a favour...


Again, Sherlock, great logical deduction, so you are saying that if you are selling your $1500 software you must be really poor or have stolen it?

anyone reading this can make up their own minds.

- well at least we can agree on that!
 
Doesn't matter what you say, in most cases, selling software
is against the EULA, end of.


So only your opinion counts?

Being able to resell your own digital software is still a grey area, whether you like it or not. A company can write whatever it wants in the small print, but it cannot remove basic consumer rights without risking prosecution. That's why its a sticky wicket and not many companies would risk going to court.

“The 'good news' is that a court may invalidate boilerplate [the small print] if it finds a party lacked meaningful choice and the terms unreasonably favor the other, or if it violates an important public policy. Radin, however, contends that this does not happen often enough. In fact, she believes that because boilerplate terms aren't bargained over or consented to in any normal fashion, they aren't even contracts.”

From book: Boilerplate The Fine Print, Vanishing Rights, and the Rule of Law Margaret Jane Radin

Its also an ethical issue as only 1 in 14 buyers actually read the small print:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/may/11/terms-conditions-small-print-big-problems

Therefore companies can expect to have the small print tested in court if it is deemed unreasonable.

The UK goverment is currently looking into ways of protecting consumer rights with digital products.

CONSUMER RIGHTS IN DIGITAL PRODUCTS - Professor Robert Bradgate Institute for Commercial Law Studies, University of Sheffield.

In 2009 the then UK government, in its White Paper, “A Better Deal for
Consumers” committed itself to a high level of consumer protection in relation to
digital products, undertaking to ensure that "the core principles of consumer
protection" apply to sales of digital products. Those core principles seem
reasonably to be identified as the implied terms contained in sections 12 to 15 of
the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the corresponding provisions of other statutes
governing the supply of goods.


Sale of Goods Act 1979

Summary

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 provides four main protections for buyers:

1. The seller must have the right to sell the goods ( S.12)

2. Goods sold by description must correspond to the description (S.13)

3. Goods must be of satisfactory quality (s.14)

4. Goods sold by sample, the goods must correspond to the sample in quality (s.15)

There is also debate about whether a digital product can be licensed but not owned.

U.S. Court: Software is Owned, Not Licensed
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/AutoCAD-Autodesk-Court-License-Software,news-4806.html

Yes the court judgement side of things is as you say.
Same for the EU:
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/docume...EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=5213884
http://www.zdnet.com/oracle-cannot-block-the-resale-of-its-software-in-europe-7000000189/

Point is, I still don't think this is all done and dusted.
Oracle actually made a very valid point in their case - you don't know if
a license key is a valid license or a keygen.


Except its even worse with software, how long will it be before
we start seeing counterfeit software with pre-installed trojans on Ebay?

I'm well aware of what consumer law says, and recent court judgements.
I am saying that as a buyer, there is too much security and piracy uncertainty
with second hand software.
How does a buyer know for certain the software is legit.
Worse still, unlike books or DVD's, second hand software opens the door
to all kinds of crap - login security and undetectable piracy.
I notice that you still don't address this point...
 
Point is, I still don't think this is all done and dusted.

Agreed - its still a grey area, but my advice is not to accept unreasonable terms hidden in the small print - they are very unlikely to stand up in a court of law.

If you have purchased a genuine piece of software then you have a right to sell it - whether or not the small print says it is a non-transferable license. Consumer law is clear, you have the right to sell a product that you have purchased. Vendor's like to say that you only have a license, but it is not as if you have hired a car for a week, you have purchased the software for life, so it is yours for life. It is also yours to sell.

Oracle actually made a very valid point in their case - you don't know if
a license key is a valid license or a keygen. Except its even worse with software, how long will it be before we start seeing counterfeit software with pre-installed trojans on Ebay?


This is not relevant to this discussion. We are talking about selling a genuine copy of a charting package with proof of purchase.

I'm well aware of what consumer law says, and recent court judgements.
I am saying that as a buyer, there is too much security and piracy uncertainty with second hand software. How does a buyer know for certain the software is legit. Worse still, unlike books or DVD's, second hand software opens the door
to all kinds of crap - login security and undetectable piracy.
I notice that you still don't address this point...


I have already addressed it - its not an issue here as this discussion is about genuine software that is easily provable with original emails, invoices etc. Also, as I have said already, the security comes from making a binding agreement, changing password, email and account details.

This discussion is now closed for me. The only thing that would make me reply is an apology from you for accusing me of being a chump, being retarded, of piracy and selling stolen software.

All the best

Naz
 
Its no way near as clear cut as you make out.
Second hand software just isn't worth the risk.
Point 10 below is my stance:
http://labnol.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/before-you-buy-software-on-ebay.html
Buyer beware:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/194989/buyer_beware_when_purchasing_used_software.html
Ebay counterfeit software:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/148935/article.html
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Illegal-Software-Sales-on-eBay-Windows-XP-/10000000003931002/g.html
Ebay buyers guide:
http://www.ebay.com/gds/How-To-Avoid-Buying-Illegal-Software-/10000000004661405/g.html

I'm not apologising, because you've given bad advice, simple as that.
The Autodesk case is not a greenlight applying to all software EULA's.
http://www.computerworlduk.com/news...it-could-impact-sales-of-secondhand-software/
They are not all the same, some are flawed, some are binding.
Regardless, the right to sell software does not negate the buyer beware points
raised in the links above regarding counterfeit and illegal software.
 
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