Kiss

The difficulty with forex is that you are trading half blind in that -
1) There is no central exchange/level 2 platform so that you can see the physical details of supply & demand. Instead seperate ECN's provide seperate L2 etc. We can't see the whole picture, we just see the effects of that supply & demand on the chart, not knowing how far it will go, or how powerful the driving forces are behind it.
2) For the same reasons as in 1, there is no volume data in forex.

Its a bit like walking on ice in this respect - its hard to know how thick the ice is.

Or -

Its a bit like a deaf person interacting/competing in a world full of people who can hear. They see what is happening & has happened, but cannot be sure what triggered it to happen. Meaningful Level 2 & volume (being important to a lesser extent IMO) Data, being the equivalent of the ability to hear.

So in essence, spot forex is a two dimensional object. With exchange traded products like FTSE100 stocks for example, that have L2 & volume data available, being 3 dimensional in nature.
 
The difficulty with forex is that you are trading half blind in that -
1) There is no central exchange/level 2 platform so that you can see supply & demand. Instead seperate ECN's provide seperate L2 etc. We can't see the whole picture/
2) For the same reason, there is no volume data in forex.

Its a bit like walking on ice in this respect - its hard to know how thick the ice is.

Definition: Support

A level at which buyers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from sellers.

Definition: Resistance

The price level at which sellers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from buyers.

Whether a candlestick chart, point and figure or notepad with major sticky point numbers are noted, the major areas of S and D are blatant from a chart or market watch in metatrader. You don't need LII or a central exchange to see the areas/levels which are important S and R. Its there on the chart....

I think it would have been more appropriate if this thread was in the psychology forum because it has much more to do with the complexities of human nature than markets.

I disagree. This thread is all about price and trading with the major participants as they move the market according to supply and demand like any fruit and veg stall in the East End, and trust me, they don't spend hours taking psychology!
 
[edit]

I disagree. This thread is all about price and trading with the major participants as they move the market according to supply and demand like any fruit and veg stall in the East End, and trust me, they don't spend hours taking psychology!

Fine, but then, your opening post doesn't really make much sense. Why are you asking "Why do we make things more difficult than they are?"

You should have just told everyone the above key to success and left it at that!
 

Definition: Support

A level at which buyers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from sellers.

Definition: Resistance

The price level at which sellers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from buyers.

Whether a candlestick chart, point and figure or notepad with major sticky point numbers are noted, the major areas of S and D are blatant from a chart or market watch in metatrader. You don't need LII or a central exchange to see the areas/levels which are important S and R. Its there on the chart....

True.
 
Fine, but then, your opening post doesn't really make much sense. Why are you asking "Why do we make things more difficult than they are?"

You should have just told everyone the above key to success and left it at that!

Because I, like many, spent a long time looking at indicators, listening to supposed legendary guru muppets on these boards (I won't mention names but think thats obvious) and believed that long term success will only come through more complicated or secretive methods but **** me, like many others, I have realised it is really rather simple and being a member of this forum, I'd like to save some newbies the waste of life that silly stories about 'Alice in wonderland - the trading version' cause and help them on their way.

The key to success isn't that simple, it still takes time and experience but, what doesn't...
 
Hi Markus,
You're right - of course - but this is one of those often quoted stat's that's a tough one to implement in practice. How would you feel after a straight run of 7 consecutive losers out of the last 10 trades or 70 out of the last 100? Your confidence in your methodology and your ability to trade it would have to be supa, mega, ultra hard rock solid. And that's quite solid! My guess is that most traders who take directional trades want an outcome that is at least equal to a 50:50 coin toss. Much less than that can easily start to mess up your head.
Tim.

Hi Tim,

very good point.

Like most others starting out in this, I suppose, I initially made the mistake of believing that becoming net profitable in trading has something to do with the number of trades that are winners.

I suppose I really only turned the corner once I realized that hit rate is psychologically comforting, but is otherwise irrelevant to net profitability.

It's conventional wisdom, I supppose. A firm belief that the more often you are right, the better you must be.

I've never trusted conventional assumptions all too much though.

Boards are filled with a representative sample of the trading community I guess.

The trading community in total though has far more net losers than net winners.

And a majority on boards always go after high hit rate strategies.

So that clearly couldn't be the answer.

That's the stuff I was doing when I started out in this:

An earnest and totally dedicated effort to finding out what the truly success relevant factors in trading are, while disregarding the noise.

What I was basically doing was a parallel approach: Benchmarking what the best of the best do, and eyeballing charts to find out what would work.

Eyeballing charts to come up with a way to make money was always easy, but then all charts ever represented to me was a display of the results of all market participants transactions, nothing more, just a display of the constant fight between bulls and bears, with periods where one side was stronger than the other and where trends developed.

That is all price is to me, a result of what the participants are doing.

I have absolutely zero doubts that you could show some kindergarten kids a few charts and they would be able to generate some extremely attractive returns.

Their advantage is that they haven't had their brains fried by the unprofitable crowd who believe that success in markets is down to cracking a secret system hiding behind an elusive Holy Grail that somehow manages to conduct all market participants in a mysterious way with a magical wand.

What kept me from becoming net profitable far earlier was not really because I didn't know what to do.

That part was simple.

What wasn't easy was the actually doing it.

And that is where what you said comes in.

To actually do it needed confidence.

That confidence eventually came after one had eyeballed sufficient charts to see that they really always do look exactly the same, be it charts from today or from a hundred years ago, all charts offer the exact same opportunities again and again and again, meaning no matter what kind of a hole one had dug oneself into, markets would always offer you more than sufficient opportunities to resurface.

That observation was what did it, coupled with simple benchmarking.

What do the best of the best do.

I visited lots of professional traders I met on a Frankfurt board that has since unfortunately dried up as the founder lost interest, in my early days, in their offices or homes, and that gave me additional coinfidence.

Plus, I read about what the best of the best did.

Jesse Livermore.

Market Wizards.

People like Bill Lipshutz, the most profitable trader at Salomon Bro's for his 8 years there with a hit rate of no more than 20 - 30%.

I became net profitable once I learned to totally let go of the individual trade as completely inconsequential in the big scheme of things, once I learned to totally accept that losing is fine, it's just a cost of doing business as a trader, when I learned to simply play out my edge the way it is supposed to be played out, not being upset by losses, and, equally important, not getting overly enthusiastic of winning trades.

I only made it, in short, once I learned to let go.

I don't really keep detailed records any longer, account stats aside that I don't really much look at in detail any longer either apart from the bottom line, but off the top of my head I'd say that it is very possible indeed that I have had runs where I have loser after loser, maybe even ten at a time.

To me trading is only about bottom line, and about having a system that is scalable, that is compoundable.

And once I realized that it is the low hit rate strategies that are more profitable than the high hit rate ones, that fortunes are earned with systems that really capture big moves, it was clear that that was the strategy I was going to follow, and it was then that I fully learned to totally let go of individual trades or even strings of losers.

It's basicaly the same like going to a bar to pick up a girl.

Insecure, negative guys who have a problem with a girl having other plans at this time for whatever reason will always be going home alone.

Confident guys with a positive attitude who take a girls otherwise oriented interest in their stride without taking it personally will always have company and fun.

Brett Steenbarger:

"...As a rule, maximizing batting average/minimizing drawdown comes at the cost of lowering overall system profitability...."


"William Eckhardt:

The Win/Loss Ratio
“One common adage on this subject that is completely wrongheaded is: You can’t go broke taking profits. That’s precisely how many traders do go broke. While amateurs go broke by taking large losses, professionals go broke by taking small profits. The problem in a nutshell is that human nature does not operate to maximize gain but rather to maximize the chance of a gain. The desire to maximize the number of winning trades (or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance. …

What really matters is the long-run distributions of outcomes from your trading techniques, systems, and procedures. But, psychologically, what seems of paramount importance is whether the positions that you have right now are going to work. Current positions seem to be crucial beyond any statistical justification. It’s quite tempting to bend your rules to make your current trades work, assuming that the favorability of your long-term statistics will take care of future profitability. Two of the cardinal sins of trading - giving losses too much rope and taking profits prematurely - are both attempts to make current positions more likely to succeed, to the severe detriment of long-term performance.”

Market Wizards
 

Definition: Support

A level at which buyers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from sellers.

Definition: Resistance

The price level at which sellers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from buyers.

By that definition each little swing point will provide S/R. The top/bottom of a V-reversal is also a level where buyers/sellers take control and manage to turn price around. But is it important enough to provide S/R in the future? Not per se, I might depend on how much time buyers/sellers spent trying to reverse price.

Whether a candlestick chart, point and figure or notepad with major sticky point numbers are noted, the major areas of S and D are blatant from a chart or market watch in metatrader. You don't need LII or a central exchange to see the areas/levels which are important S and R. Its there on the chart....

I disagree... if S/R was to obvious and easy to identify to everybody than we'd all be using simple math to come up with S/R levels in the same way as pivot points are calculated.

There's major S/R from a higher timeframe, there's minor S/R from a lower timeframe, there are false breaches of S/R (are these areas still valid S/R?) from time to time, there are people who use S/R off trendlines, Fibs, wide range marubozus, congestion areas,...
 
By that definition each little swing point will provide S/R. The top/bottom of a V-reversal is also a level where buyers/sellers take control and manage to turn price around. But is it important enough to provide S/R in the future? Not per se, I might depend on how much time buyers/sellers spent trying to reverse price.



I disagree... if S/R was to obvious and easy to identify to everybody than we'd all be using simple math to come up with S/R levels in the same way as pivot points are calculated.

There's major S/R from a higher timeframe, there's minor S/R from a lower timeframe, there are false breaches of S/R (are these areas still valid S/R?) from time to time, there are people who use S/R off trendlines, Fibs, wide range marubozus, congestion areas,...

I consider the S/R on the lower TF the most relevant to that lower timeframe, in comparison to the S/R on the higher timeframe.
Likewise, i consider the S/R on the higher TF more relevant to that TF than the S/R on the lower TF.
Therefore, if i am trading from a M15 chart, i would pay much more attention to the S/R on M15 than to the S/R on H4.
Sure, at some point they coincide, at which point the H4 S/R is relevant to what is going on on M15..........But also, if you are trading off H4, the S/R/trend etc. forming on M15 can also help you pin-point things.
So to say that lower TF S/R is less important than higher TF S/R, is incorrect IMO. Its all relative....
 
So to say that lower TF S/R is less important than higher TF S/R, is incorrect IMO. Its all relative....

I didn't say they were... by "major" I only meant to illustrate that these S/R zones usually last longer than "minor" (intraday) S/R levels.
 
By that definition each little swing point will provide S/R. The top/bottom of a V-reversal is also a level where buyers/sellers take control and manage to turn price around. But is it important enough to provide S/R in the future? Not per se, I might depend on how much time buyers/sellers spent trying to reverse price.

It might, then again it might not. That depends on how you perceive things and who you listened too to justify your reasoning behind what constitutes S/R. I could post a dozen charts where every single swing high/low has acted as S/R which also can be called HrH and HrL etc.......

I disagree... if S/R was to obvious and easy to identify to everybody than we'd all be using simple math to come up with S/R levels in the same way as pivot points are calculated.

I don't follow... S/R is easy to identify....

There's major S/R from a higher timeframe, there's minor S/R from a lower timeframe, there are false breaches of S/R (are these areas still valid S/R?) from time to time, there are people who use S/R off trendlines, Fibs, wide range marubozus, congestion areas,...

Not sure what a marubozus is, congestion areas are S/R and fibs can all be tied into s/R too.... Trendlines are part the parcel too but they even got a separate mention in my opening post.
 
It might, then again it might not. That depends on how you perceive things and who you listened too to justify your reasoning behind what constitutes S/R. I could post a dozen charts where every single swing high/low has acted as S/R which also can be called HrH and HrL etc.......

And I'm sure I could find a chart on which every round number seems to provide S/R, but that wouldn't mean that every round number is in fact providing S/R.

I don't follow... S/R is easy to identify....

What I meant to say is that although each of us might find them easy to identify, most of us will use different definitions to identify what constitutes as S/R. To make sure that S/R is exactly unambigiously identifiable, we'll need to agree upon a common definition.

Not sure what a marubozus is, congestion areas are S/R and fibs can all be tied into s/R too.... Trendlines are part the parcel too but they even got a separate mention in my opening post.

Marubozus are a type of candlestick where the body is rather large and there's hardly any tail. As you say yourself, Fibs, trendlines,... some traders will consider these areas to provide S/R, others will disagree.

And even if S/R was so easy to identify on a chart, it doesn't necessarily mean we could profit from it just by buying S and selling R...
 
He who walk backwards will move forwards. hai, hai, hai.

Why do we make things more difficult than they are?

Supply, demand and the trend, be it a 5 minute time frame or weekly, its all the same and thats all that matters. Why make things any more complicated? and why does it take so long to realise it?!!!!

The last mind a person will attempt to change is their own. CB

People will generally seek to shift or force,bend,change etc. their external environment first rather than shift,change,bend themselves.

If the world will not adapt to you then you must adapt to it.

Most people are or have fixed conditioning , creatures of habbit, dislike to change etc. Now with the markets do they change ? yah... does the trader change ? naa.

He or she is like the monkey with his clenched fist inside a jar holding a piece of food. He cant let good of his food.

The backwards man. Process of change within. An exercise.

I tell all my students to spend a day walking backwards at work at home at play. i havent actually got any students mind, cos they think im a bit of a loon walking backwards.....but ya know.. one day Rodney. n all that..

Still its a good exercise.sing it now....

The backwards man the backwards man I can walk back as quick as you can......

Its normal good fun and teaches us to help change our views.. perceive our environment differently. Allowing us to be "open to change through conscious choice"

so everyone should spend a day doing this.... people may look at you funny, or try to get you to walk forwards they want you to conform..... just keep singing the mantra ..

Enjoy.
 
And even if S/R was so easy to identify on a chart

I think it is! for example.. To see that there is support in cable around 350 is easy! To see the overall direction of the pair is down is easy. To see where trend resistance is likley to occur is easy!

it doesn't necessarily mean we could profit from it just by buying S and selling R.

This is true! but this is a broad statement! Its how you define and control risk at these levels! However anyone attempts to do this! it can end up in cost! Theres no knowing!


SR / direction.. I dont think you need anymore than this! Its the easy part!. Its the battle with yourself thats the not so easy part! imo
 
Last edited:
Hi Tim,

very good point.

Like most others starting out in this, I suppose, I initially made the mistake of believing that becoming net profitable in trading has something to do with the number of trades that are winners.

I suppose I really only turned the corner once I realized that hit rate is psychologically comforting, but is otherwise irrelevant to net profitability.

It's conventional wisdom, I supppose. A firm belief that the more often you are right, the better you must be.

I've never trusted conventional assumptions all too much though.

Boards are filled with a representative sample of the trading community I guess.

The trading community in total though has far more net losers than net winners.

And a majority on boards always go after high hit rate strategies.

So that clearly couldn't be the answer.

That's the stuff I was doing when I started out in this:

An earnest and totally dedicated effort to finding out what the truly success relevant factors in trading are, while disregarding the noise.

What I was basically doing was a parallel approach: Benchmarking what the best of the best do, and eyeballing charts to find out what would work.

Eyeballing charts to come up with a way to make money was always easy, but then all charts ever represented to me was a display of the results of all market participants transactions, nothing more, just a display of the constant fight between bulls and bears, with periods where one side was stronger than the other and where trends developed.

That is all price is to me, a result of what the participants are doing.

I have absolutely zero doubts that you could show some kindergarten kids a few charts and they would be able to generate some extremely attractive returns.

Their advantage is that they haven't had their brains fried by the unprofitable crowd who believe that success in markets is down to cracking a secret system hiding behind an elusive Holy Grail that somehow manages to conduct all market participants in a mysterious way with a magical wand.

What kept me from becoming net profitable far earlier was not really because I didn't know what to do.

That part was simple.

What wasn't easy was the actually doing it.

And that is where what you said comes in.

To actually do it needed confidence.

That confidence eventually came after one had eyeballed sufficient charts to see that they really always do look exactly the same, be it charts from today or from a hundred years ago, all charts offer the exact same opportunities again and again and again, meaning no matter what kind of a hole one had dug oneself into, markets would always offer you more than sufficient opportunities to resurface.

That observation was what did it, coupled with simple benchmarking.

What do the best of the best do.

I visited lots of professional traders I met on a Frankfurt board that has since unfortunately dried up as the founder lost interest, in my early days, in their offices or homes, and that gave me additional coinfidence.

Plus, I read about what the best of the best did.

Jesse Livermore.

Market Wizards.

People like Bill Lipshutz, the most profitable trader at Salomon Bro's for his 8 years there with a hit rate of no more than 20 - 30%.

I became net profitable once I learned to totally let go of the individual trade as completely inconsequential in the big scheme of things, once I learned to totally accept that losing is fine, it's just a cost of doing business as a trader, when I learned to simply play out my edge the way it is supposed to be played out, not being upset by losses, and, equally important, not getting overly enthusiastic of winning trades.

I only made it, in short, once I learned to let go.

I don't really keep detailed records any longer, account stats aside that I don't really much look at in detail any longer either apart from the bottom line, but off the top of my head I'd say that it is very possible indeed that I have had runs where I have loser after loser, maybe even ten at a time.

To me trading is only about bottom line, and about having a system that is scalable, that is compoundable.

And once I realized that it is the low hit rate strategies that are more profitable than the high hit rate ones, that fortunes are earned with systems that really capture big moves, it was clear that that was the strategy I was going to follow, and it was then that I fully learned to totally let go of individual trades or even strings of losers.

It's basicaly the same like going to a bar to pick up a girl.

Insecure, negative guys who have a problem with a girl having other plans at this time for whatever reason will always be going home alone.

Confident guys with a positive attitude who take a girls otherwise oriented interest in their stride without taking it personally will always have company and fun.

Brett Steenbarger:

"...As a rule, maximizing batting average/minimizing drawdown comes at the cost of lowering overall system profitability...."


"William Eckhardt:

The Win/Loss Ratio
“One common adage on this subject that is completely wrongheaded is: You can’t go broke taking profits. That’s precisely how many traders do go broke. While amateurs go broke by taking large losses, professionals go broke by taking small profits. The problem in a nutshell is that human nature does not operate to maximize gain but rather to maximize the chance of a gain. The desire to maximize the number of winning trades (or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance. …

What really matters is the long-run distributions of outcomes from your trading techniques, systems, and procedures. But, psychologically, what seems of paramount importance is whether the positions that you have right now are going to work. Current positions seem to be crucial beyond any statistical justification. It’s quite tempting to bend your rules to make your current trades work, assuming that the favorability of your long-term statistics will take care of future profitability. Two of the cardinal sins of trading - giving losses too much rope and taking profits prematurely - are both attempts to make current positions more likely to succeed, to the severe detriment of long-term performance.”

Market Wizards

Also:

"Viewing trading logic in this simple fashion, we can see three sources of "edge" in trading:

1) We are right more than we're wrong - In other words, we are good at generating promising hypotheses. Here the core skill is anticipating market moves. Our methods for reading supply and demand in the markets are so good that we are accurate in assessing direction.

2) We make more when we're right than when we're wrong for a given position - We may not be right more than we're wrong, but we are good at framing hypotheses with a favorable ratio of reward to risk. That is, we will make more money if we're right than if we're wrong because there is an asymmetry between the loss we'll take if we're stopped out and the gain we'll achieve if we hit our target. Here the core skill is execution: getting into ideas at such good prices that risk/reward is in our favor.

3) We are bigger when we're right than when we're wrong - We may not be right more often than we're wrong, and we may have a relatively even balance of risk/reward. If, however, we are good at recognizing when we're right *as the trade is progressing*, we can then add to our size when we're right and keep size small when we're not. Here the core skill is sizing (position management): adding to winners and keeping losers modest.

When we lay out sources of edge in this manner, it becomes possible to ask: What is your core competency as a trader, and where can you make your greatest improvements?

My experience is that too many beginning traders shoot for number one--trying to be right most the time--when in fact the majority of profitable traders fall into the latter two categories (and often both). Execution and sizing may not offer the ego rewards of being right and outsmarting the market, but they embody a kind of reasoning that is essential to success, regardless of one's market, strategy, or time frame."

Full article:
TraderFeed: Trading Logic and Trading Edge: Accuracy, Execution, and Position Sizing

Most people who want to become traders want high hit rate strategies, want to be right more than they are wrong.

Most traders are net losers.

Ergo ?

Exactly.

It's not about wanting to be right.

It's about being NET profitable.
 
The last mind a person will attempt to change is their own. CB

People will generally seek to shift or force,bend,change etc. their external environment first rather than shift,change,bend themselves.

If the world will not adapt to you then you must adapt to it.

Most people are or have fixed conditioning , creatures of habbit, dislike to change etc. Now with the markets do they change ? yah... does the trader change ? naa.

A friend emailed me this a while back.

as ever, do what the market tells you to do, not what you think.
this is not about being the boss.
this about being told what to do and then doing it.
submission is how you win.
the irony of it all.
 
Also:

"Viewing trading logic in this simple fashion, we can see three sources of "edge" in trading:

1) We are right more than we're wrong - In other words, we are good at generating promising hypotheses. Here the core skill is anticipating market moves. Our methods for reading supply and demand in the markets are so good that we are accurate in assessing direction.

2) We make more when we're right than when we're wrong for a given position - We may not be right more than we're wrong, but we are good at framing hypotheses with a favorable ratio of reward to risk. That is, we will make more money if we're right than if we're wrong because there is an asymmetry between the loss we'll take if we're stopped out and the gain we'll achieve if we hit our target. Here the core skill is execution: getting into ideas at such good prices that risk/reward is in our favor.

3) We are bigger when we're right than when we're wrong - We may not be right more often than we're wrong, and we may have a relatively even balance of risk/reward. If, however, we are good at recognizing when we're right *as the trade is progressing*, we can then add to our size when we're right and keep size small when we're not. Here the core skill is sizing (position management): adding to winners and keeping losers modest.

When we lay out sources of edge in this manner, it becomes possible to ask: What is your core competency as a trader, and where can you make your greatest improvements?

My experience is that too many beginning traders shoot for number one--trying to be right most the time--when in fact the majority of profitable traders fall into the latter two categories (and often both). Execution and sizing may not offer the ego rewards of being right and outsmarting the market, but they embody a kind of reasoning that is essential to success, regardless of one's market, strategy, or time frame."

Full article:
TraderFeed: Trading Logic and Trading Edge: Accuracy, Execution, and Position Sizing

Most people who want to become traders want high hit rate strategies, want to be right more than they are wrong.

Most traders are net losers.

Ergo ?

Exactly.

It's not about wanting to be right.

It's about being NET profitable.

In your earlier example of being right 30% of the time etc., but with like 4:1 reward:risk, or being right 40% of time, but with 3:1 reward to risk (equal to 1:1 reward to risk with 80% winners). The being right more often than you are wrong, shouldn't be a factor. This desire is only a result of our egos - like you said. As they say -

It's not how big it is, it is how yo use it ;).

If I'm right 80% of the time, but my net average profit is 5 pip, and my net average loss is 20 pips, i only break even. So the being right more often than not part is irrelevant.

Seeing the bigger picture of being able to stay in the trade long enough to achieve the payouts of the good potential reward:risk ratios is good to grasp.
 
Because I, like many, spent a long time looking at indicators, listening to supposed legendary guru muppets on these boards . . .
That's no way to talk to - and about - a fellow T2W Advisor!
:cheesy:
 
The being right more often than you are wrong, shouldn't be a factor. This desire is only a result of our egos - like you said. As they say -

If I'm right 80% of the time, but my net average profit is 5 pip, and my net average loss is 20 pips, i only break even. So the being right more often than not part is irrelevant.

Seeing the bigger picture of being able to stay in the trade long enough to achieve the payouts of the good potential reward:risk ratios is good to grasp.

Totally agree mate.

:)
 

Definition: Support

A level at which buyers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from sellers.

Definition: Resistance

The price level at which sellers are expected to enter the market in sufficient numbers to take control from buyers.

Whether a candlestick chart, point and figure or notepad with major sticky point numbers are noted, the major areas of S and D are blatant from a chart or market watch in metatrader. You don't need LII or a central exchange to see the areas/levels which are important S and R. Its there on the chart....

You're equating support and resistance with demand and supply, and they're not quite the same thing. Therefore, I teach that one should focus on price, volume, demand, supply, support, resistance, trend (not trendlines). This is all I need to develop a setup, though it may not be all that someone else needs. But it is more than just demand, supply, and trend.

Db
 
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