DaxDestroyer
Established member
- Messages
- 661
- Likes
- 125
To answer the question: Yes, it is possible. Just put a little bit of effort into it 
donaldduke
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,665
- Likes
- 260
You cant keep on making 100% for long with a day trading system so not much chance of joining the billionaire league as a day trader.
At some point you starting to run out of liquidity and you get increased slippage.
Then it becomes a constant $ dollar return with diminishing % returns.
If you start with 1m and make 100% a year until you reach 10million a year it goes something like:
year0: 1m
year1: 2m (100%)
year2: 4m (100%)
year3: 8m (100%)
year4: 16m (100%)
year5: 26m (62%)
year6: 36m (38%)
year7: 46m (27%)
year8: 56m (22%)
year9: 66m (18%)
...
This is just an illustration, you might hit a wall way before 10 million or perhaps after, it depends on your system.
Liquidity issues is why a small trader can make 100% a year until they get quite rich, but a hedge fund with 100s of millions under management struggles to make 20% a year. They cannot trade the 'easy' systems we trade.
DaxDestroyer
Established member
- Messages
- 661
- Likes
- 125
Best of luck
Sounds by far better, but still quite challenging. Maybe I am only not good enough Trueblue77
Newbie
- Messages
- 1
- Likes
- 0
There are old traders, and bold traders, but no old, bold traders.
Almost all day traders either get wiped out, or they have to take the money and run.
If you want to consistently make money, it will be (by definition) over the long term. Which means that you must trade conservatively, and be fearful when others are greedy...but be greedy when others are fearful. So to answer your question, yes, you can be successful, but "consistent" and "day-trade" in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms.
Almost all day traders either get wiped out, or they have to take the money and run.
If you want to consistently make money, it will be (by definition) over the long term. Which means that you must trade conservatively, and be fearful when others are greedy...but be greedy when others are fearful. So to answer your question, yes, you can be successful, but "consistent" and "day-trade" in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms.
Dinos
Veteren member
- Messages
- 4,113
- Likes
- 714
Hmmmm, we keep getting asked this question under a number of guises, YES, it is possible to make a living living out of day trading, I have been day trading 14 years, 8 full time. I'm neither old or bold or greedy, but have a set plan which sees me trades a maximum of 4 trades a day. Why do people think you cannot make a living out of day trading, perhaps they have blown their accounts or simply cannot day trade. With discipline, a concise, clear set of rules which enable entry, exit and stop loss, its not very difficult to make a comfortable living from day trading. I "work" from 7.30am to 12.30pm each day and then finish trading and am free to do as I wish. If you want to be greedy and get every single point available, then greed will probably get you in the end, however, to target a modest pip count for each day leveraged sensibly with clear cut stop and limit orders, day trading is easy, before I start the day, I already know what my maximum potential loss can be and conversely what my maximum profit can be. Add to that discipline, together with a clearly defined trading plan, which has being rigourously backed tested and statiscally assessed to form a trading plan, you should win. Surely you wouldn't trade without a plan would you??, if your plan says, your set up is wrong, again, you wouldn't trade it. If the results say you have a system that works, your trade per say and record the details of every trade taken, the entry, exit and stop criteria should be match your trading plan on every trade, if not, your not trading as you should, I need to know the outcome of every trade I place so I can record the trade, honestly good or bad and form statistical database of my trading. I can tweak/change or adapt any part of the plan as the statistics identify to ensure the outcome is in my favour. Boringly, say you run a 75% success rate by sticking 100% to a plan, simply maths says you are running a 3:1 winning ratio, conversely if the fugure is the other way around, your system clearly isn't working and you will become one of the statistics if you don't adapt. IMHO, KISS, trading is easy, its the trader who makes it difficult, makes your decisions on trading by yourself, unfortunately I have being around long enough to see traders from these boards come on with yet another "fantastic" set up, only to bring another to the boards a few months later, makes your own decisions, make your own plan, trade your own decisions and don't let anyone tell you you are doing it wrong, you will know yourself by the results whether youe are doing it right or wrong.
I rarely visit these boards these days, I have no need, I'm comfortable with my life as a trader, and I would go as far and say, these forums can be bad for you as a trader, as you perhaps doubt yourself when you read of others "success", be honest with yourself, be disciplined, be patience and if your set up is correct, you to can stop visiting these sites, makes money and a living and indulge your spare time in something away from trading.....Just my thoughts, off to do something more interesting now, non "work" related.
DaxDestroyer
Established member
- Messages
- 661
- Likes
- 125
bigtymer292929
Junior member
- Messages
- 14
- Likes
- 1
yes, if you can visualize it. Everybody knocks daytrading, but the truth is most people don't have the knowledge nor the cajunas to do it. What do you think the guys in the nymex pit do all day. trade in and out of contracts somedays there up huge some days they lose. Eric Boling was in the pits and I can promise you he is a millionaire.
Possibly.
The question should read: "I'm wondering if it is actually possible for me to consistently make good money Day-trading."
I expect you can answer that yourself.
Is it possible to become a World champion F1 driver in 23 years?
Taylored001
Active member
- Messages
- 130
- Likes
- 17
I'm a consistent, good-money day trader and it didn't take anything like 23 years... The problem is you can't just use a strategy, you really need to know whats going on, so it takes a lot of learning, persistance, determination, thoughts of lacking ability. But if you persist you'll make it, some take a month or 6, some take 5-10 years.
Taylored001
Active member
- Messages
- 130
- Likes
- 17
The main problem of people who start trading new is that they have a misconception of what day trading is - i saw up the page someone said these guys make a huge amount one day and lose it all the next ... Thats not true, they are just consistant, they trade relatively small amounts of a huge account to definately and unriskly make money. Ultimately the point with day trading is, its not a quick adrenaline rush as you try to gain £1000 today... its about monthly profits.
unfortunately, Taylor, I've seen it all before!
Surely you borrow a million quid and clean up quick time?
Raysor, well there are some things that are out of limits, I can never run the 100m in under 10 seconds for example. But that's a physical thing. Also for formula 1, there are what 30-40 drivers or so? You're competing against possibly the best 40 in the world. If trading was me against the best 40 traders in the world who have trained for 20 years, then no, I probably couldn't do it because lots of the 40 would get killed too.
But when it comes to something like trading, where it is not just the best in the world, but also newbs and investors and others my attitude is if somebody else can do it, then of course I can do it too. Which is why I asked of course.
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers. I think I have found the answer to my question.
because lots of the 40 would get killed too.But when it comes to something like trading, where it is not just the best in the world, but also newbs and investors and others my attitude is if somebody else can do it, then of course I can do it too. Which is why I asked of course.
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers. I think I have found the answer to my question.
Raysor, well there are some things that are out of limits, I can never run the 100m in under 10 seconds for example. But that's a physical thing. Also for formula 1, there are what 30-40 drivers or so? You're competing against possibly the best 40 in the world. If trading was me against the best 40 traders in the world who have trained for 20 years, then no, I probably couldn't do it
But when it comes to something like trading, where it is not just the best in the world, but also newbs and investors and others my attitude is if somebody else can do it, then of course I can do it too. Which is why I asked of course.
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers. I think I have found the answer to my question.
My point about Lewis Hamilton was that you can't just point to someone and say if they can do it so can anybody else. My point there was if you were an 8 year old Go-kart champ waht are your chances of become F1 World champion in 15 years time? Perhaps not a good example. But like anything it is within the person. If you want to make consistent profits out of day trading, you have first got to find the tools necessary to do it with. I am sure there are a few people who make money out of day trading and other forms of trading, even gambling. I suspect, however they also know when to quit, which, in my experience is the answer to most things.
It always occurs to me with the amount of computing power available someone could have devised an automated system that always had an edge. Maybe they have. Maybe LTC Hedge fund thought they had it!
By the way running 100m in under 10 secs is not just a physical thing. And I suspect day trading is not just a mental thing!
Pit traders ( mostly eletronic these days ) are done on noise.
Seek the net for noise indicators, I remember one site that used to have a real time service from S+P pit years ago, as the noise got louder it was time to trade, yes the good old days.
Now look for trin, ticks numbers linked to support resistence on 2-5 min charts.
Seek the net for noise indicators, I remember one site that used to have a real time service from S+P pit years ago, as the noise got louder it was time to trade, yes the good old days.
Now look for trin, ticks numbers linked to support resistence on 2-5 min charts.
David those are good solid numbers! Can I ask what you trade and what have you found to be the best tools for your 'edge'? I am new and looking to open an account with fxpro 9deom to start) have been reading all about MACD, EMa and Stochastics as a good measure whats your view?
Thanks,
Jason
Thanks,
Jason
c_c405
Well-known member
- Messages
- 256
- Likes
- 19
There is now answer until you try it
I prefer to swing trade as I was not very good at scalping or day trading.
You can make a nice haul on forex day trading but often closing your positions at end of day will limit your gains if your in a good one closing is just losing additional pips. It can often take much more than a day for a currency to make you profits.
Don't do stocks much anymore but I position traded them anyway
The answer is unknown for you until you try but for me the answer was a break even usually.
Back then I know a lot less and now I make more than enough to keep me happily trading and risking profited cash
I prefer to swing trade as I was not very good at scalping or day trading.
You can make a nice haul on forex day trading but often closing your positions at end of day will limit your gains if your in a good one closing is just losing additional pips. It can often take much more than a day for a currency to make you profits.
Don't do stocks much anymore but I position traded them anyway
The answer is unknown for you until you try but for me the answer was a break even usually.
Back then I know a lot less and now I make more than enough to keep me happily trading and risking profited cash
Understand what's really happening here.
The problem with the conclusion is that the best traders are better rewarded by hedge funds. Claude Shannon was one of the best traders back in the day, but he is more known for getting good long-term results based on fundamentals than for his technical analysis abilities. This isn't because he couldn't make money on day trading. This is because the more money you have, the harder it is to do short-term trades. He was managing billions, so it was better for him to invest primarily long-term. He never, ever worked for a bank. He went from being a college professor at MIT, to becoming independently wealthy trading options with his own money, to managing a hedge fund. His hedge fund had better average returns than Warren Buffet. His personal accounts allegedly had better returns than his hedge fund. He only revealed his successful methods if somebody else disclosed the same method first (e.g. the Black-Sholes option pricing formula).
The banks use performance persistence bias because it allows them to get good peolple for less money. How could they make money if they had to pay out 50% of profitable trades to compete with Medalion Funds, while absorbing 100% of losses? Instead, they get people to trade small amounts of money, and those who make the most are allowed to trade more. This works for a short while because some young people have a psychology that reacts faster to trends or mass psychology than the market reacts. Thus they are one step ahead simply because they do the stupid thing faster than everybbody else does the stupid thing. Rather than following the smart money, they stay one step ahead of the stupid money.
The banks also have information that you don't, which allows them to make small profits on large amounts of money in simple ways that seem to never fail. They don't need smart people to do this, and the smart people leave for better compensation at hedge funds and mutual funds and insurance companies.
The problem with the conclusion is that the best traders are better rewarded by hedge funds. Claude Shannon was one of the best traders back in the day, but he is more known for getting good long-term results based on fundamentals than for his technical analysis abilities. This isn't because he couldn't make money on day trading. This is because the more money you have, the harder it is to do short-term trades. He was managing billions, so it was better for him to invest primarily long-term. He never, ever worked for a bank. He went from being a college professor at MIT, to becoming independently wealthy trading options with his own money, to managing a hedge fund. His hedge fund had better average returns than Warren Buffet. His personal accounts allegedly had better returns than his hedge fund. He only revealed his successful methods if somebody else disclosed the same method first (e.g. the Black-Sholes option pricing formula).
The banks use performance persistence bias because it allows them to get good peolple for less money. How could they make money if they had to pay out 50% of profitable trades to compete with Medalion Funds, while absorbing 100% of losses? Instead, they get people to trade small amounts of money, and those who make the most are allowed to trade more. This works for a short while because some young people have a psychology that reacts faster to trends or mass psychology than the market reacts. Thus they are one step ahead simply because they do the stupid thing faster than everybbody else does the stupid thing. Rather than following the smart money, they stay one step ahead of the stupid money.
The banks also have information that you don't, which allows them to make small profits on large amounts of money in simple ways that seem to never fail. They don't need smart people to do this, and the smart people leave for better compensation at hedge funds and mutual funds and insurance companies.
Dinos
Veteren member
- Messages
- 4,113
- Likes
- 714
Absolutely YES, I've being day trading for 10 Years and its my only source of income, a robust system, tried and backtested and forward tested, tweaked and going through the whole process again and again until you get the % hit rate right. The the hard bit, a robust trading plan, discipline and patience, and not using human emotion (fear of losing), if your have done your homework right you should have a plan to trade. I trade mainly 2 "products" the ftse and cac similtaneously. I trade one time frame only, (15 MIN), take the fste yesterday, for the period 8am - 9pm, my set up identified 6 potential trades, the result, 5 were positive, 1 loser, (83% success rate, )however, I only traded the one (and made my daily pips).
Trading really doesn't have to be rocket science, inho, the trader makes life difficult, over elaborate charts etc, the adage for me KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).
In reality, the worse thing are board like this, everybody has their opinion and system, you "read" others making it, whilst you suffer a losing trade, you begin to question yourself, you find yourself quiting winners early and letting losings position run longer (your doomed to failure if thats you imho).
So get you system, test, test and test again, and when your live trading stay well away from these board or any chat room you attend, concentrate, show discipline, act on the set up, bank the winners, quit losing positions without question , so long as your % is correct your on a winner.
I record every data from every set up that appears, recording what I see as the important to build up a thorough picture and understanding of the product I'm trading, these stats are recorded daily and go back years, I always have the most upto date information to hand, so making it easy to ascertain my stop and limit positions based on current market conditions, its not easy, in fact its sodding hard, but the hard work will pay off, then maybe you can do as I do, and work 3/4 hours a day and then move onto something more interesting.
Just a thought
