I Stopped Using Stops

[timsk]

Comon then, lets have em.

Tims list:-
1) ?

Lol - just for you dt - here's the top three:
1. Ability (lack thereof).
2. Psychology (the stomach and mental toughness not to be fazed by [very] offside trades).
3. Self confidence (even if I overcome the first two, there's the constant thought that one only has to feck up once and it's bye-bye account time).

To be fair to the majority of subscribers to the thread who favour the use of stops - they are the simplest solution - both in terms of practical application and in terms of psychology. I admire the way you trade (in so far as I understand what you do), but I think you are in a tiny minority of people who can trade that way - and make it work. Big respect to you for that, but I doubt I'll be joining you anytime soon, unless that is, I can overcome the three big problems listed above.
Tim.

 

[tar]

Lol - just for you dt - here's the top three:
1. Ability (lack thereof).
2. Psychology (the stomach and mental toughness not to be fazed by [very] offside trades).
3. Self confidence (even if I overcome the first two, there's the constant thought that one only has to feck up once and it's bye-bye account time).

To be fair to the majority of subscribers to the thread who favour the use of stops - they are the simplest solution - both in terms of practical application and in terms of psychology. I admire the way you trade (in so far as I understand what you do), but I think you are in a tiny minority of people who can trade that way - and make it work. Big respect to you for that, but I doubt I'll be joining you anytime soon, unless that is, I can overcome the three big problems listed above.
Tim.

Dont forget that one :

4- We cant trade in hindsight : In reality you would have been adding shorts at 11400 ,11500 , 11600 and 11700 , and thus resulting in a margin call before prices dropping back down .

 

[tar]

This is like saying : there is no reason why you couldn't short big size at 11805 with 20 points sl and held it all the way down to 11050 .

 

[counter_violent]

Lol - just for you dt - here's the top three:
1. Ability (lack thereof).
2. Psychology (the stomach and mental toughness not to be fazed by [very] offside trades).
3. Self confidence (even if I overcome the first two, there's the constant thought that one only has to feck up once and it's bye-bye account time).

To be fair to the majority of subscribers to the thread who favour the use of stops - they are the simplest solution - both in terms of practical application and in terms of psychology. I admire the way you trade (in so far as I understand what you do), but I think you are in a tiny minority of people who can trade that way - and make it work. Big respect to you for that, but I doubt I'll be joining you anytime soon, unless that is, I can overcome the three big problems listed above.
Tim.

Tim, considering the size and offsidedness of the original position, you had no chance of working a trade in this position. There simply wasn't enough ammo left in the account.

The offsidedness wouldn't have mattered as much, had the original position been small enough to manage (possibly multiple times) over time.

 

[darktone]

Lol - just for you dt - here's the top three:
1. Ability (lack thereof).
Id bet youve far more than you need. Most likely you could do with unlearning 90% of it. The smarter you are, the dumber you are.
2. Psychology (the stomach and mental toughness not to be fazed by [very] offside trades).
You can work on this, its simple enough. Theres no balls of steel needed, no mental toughness, just acceptance of what is. Ironically, the harder you 'think' it is, the harder it will be.
3. Self confidence (even if I overcome the first two, there's the constant thought that one only has to feck up once and it's bye-bye account time).
If you 'ovecome' the psychological side. You can put that thought along with other erroneous thoughts in the bin where they belong.


To be fair to the majority of subscribers to the thread who favour the use of stops - they are the simplest solution - both in terms of practical application and in terms of psychology. I admire the way you trade (in so far as I understand what you do), but I think you are in a tiny minority of people who can trade that way - and make it work. Big respect to you for that, but I doubt I'll be joining you anytime soon, unless that is, I can overcome the three big problems listed above.
Tim.
I do understand and sympathise with that view, I held it for long enough. Now though, to me, it makes about as much sense as kicking myself in the bolloćks, repeatedly.
The first step to escaping to grip of your mind is to believe on some level that you can. From there its a step by step personal journey, it neednt be painful. It benefits in all areas of your life.
You are not your thoughts! Unless of you course, you think you are, then the mind has already won, despite reality.

Thought id add this

4. We cant trade in hindsight.
For sure we cant trade hindsight. But, if your method (in this case) involves selling higher prices and scratching out excess size as you go. There will come a time when you cannot not have a sized position that is averaged near the top. How well you scratch dictates how much loss / profit you take getting into that position.
Players who rely on their skill / timing, dont imho have that luxury.

 

[tar]

Thought id add this

4. We cant trade in hindsight.
For sure we cant trade hindsight. But, if your method (in this case) involves selling higher prices and scratching out excess size as you go. There will come a time when you cannot not have a sized position that is averaged near the top. How well you scratch dictates how much loss / profit you take getting into that position.
Players who rely on their skill / timing, dont imho have that luxury.

If you are betting same size every fixed number of points - like every 100 points - your average price would be at the middle between the first entry and last one , thats why its not feasible , you need 50% retracement to just get back to BE .

IMO its better to open a live journal to illustrate your points instead of talking hypothetically .

 

[Oscar Reed]

Tim, considering the size and offsidedness of the original position, you had no chance of working a trade in this position. There simply wasn't enough ammo left in the account.

The offsidedness wouldn't have mattered as much, had the original position been small enough to manage (possibly multiple times) over time.

Could edged long same or different instrument on the way up at a lot earlier stage.

Could have been a nice trade on both sides.

Guess he had no plan even if it was demo.

Each to there own.

 

[CityTrader]

I'm not reading the pervious 41 pages, but FWIW, I only use stops on volatile, liquid instruments such as indices and FX. And even then I tend to move them a lot depending on
a) overall day/week i;m having
b) my own conviction levels
c) the realisation that invariably a stop tends to be the same point of capitulation for most people in indices and forex , and inevaitably the market runs to the stops. therefore it's wrong!

 

[Anon1]

If you are betting same size every fixed number of points - like every 100 points - your average price would be at the middle between the first entry and last one , thats why its not feasible , you need 50% retracement to just get back to BE .

IMO its better to open a live journal to illustrate your points instead of talking hypothetically .

But if one weights their stock. Scheduled/planned weighted increments can mean a good average nearer the figure of a 25% retrace. This B/E scenario is also helped with clipping in and out of trades on a daily basis (depending on MA of target market and contract targets). Nonetheless, its always prudent to back test the target market and see if 50% retraces from (current) highs to previous recent highs are probable.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, however, we are talking current here as we did not know that Timsk closed out his positions. So needless to say, we could close off majority now and take the money and leave some on if it continues to go down. We could possibly be having the same conversation about hindsight in 1 month time if the market hits 10,000 (DAX), and with some trades left on, can be closed out nearer the mark. As for closing out the trades if the market rises, I'll leave that for Timsk if he's still playing.

 

[timsk]

Guess he had no plan even if it was demo.

Pretty much correct Oscar. Just larkin' about with the view to adding it to a Sticky as a cautionary tale for newbies about how easy it is to blow up an account if one trades without a plan, without stops of some description, takes one's eye off the ball and tries to average down without having a clear understanding about how to go about it.

What you are talking about ? He's short from 10685 , close what exactly ? He's still under the water .

Chart attached showing all open trades with blotter. . .

 

[tar]

But if one weights their stock. Scheduled/planned weighted increments can mean a good average nearer the figure of a 25% retrace. This B/E scenario is also helped with clipping in and out of trades on a daily basis (depending on MA of target market and contract targets). Nonetheless, its always prudent to back test the target market and see if 50% retraces from (current) highs to previous recent highs are probable.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, however, we are talking current here as we did not know that Timsk closed out his positions. So needless to say, we could close off majority now and take the money and leave some on if it continues to go down. We could possibly be having the same conversation about hindsight in 1 month time if the market hits 10,000 (DAX), and with some trades left on, can be closed out nearer the mark. As for closing out the trades if the market rises, I'll leave that for Timsk if he's still playing.

Assuming he should've added to his shorts at 11800 is trading in hindsight !

 

[tar]

But if one weights their stock. Scheduled/planned weighted increments can mean a good average nearer the figure of a 25% retrace. This B/E scenario is also helped with clipping in and out of trades on a daily basis (depending on MA of target market and contract targets). Nonetheless, its always prudent to back test the target market and see if 50% retraces from (current) highs to previous recent highs are probable.
.

Open a journal thread and show us live how you will do it .

 

[Fugazsy]

If you are betting same size every fixed number of points - like every 100 points - your average price would be at the middle between the first entry and last one , thats why its not feasible , you need 50% retracement to just get back to BE .

IMO its better to open a live journal to illustrate your points instead of talking hypothetically .

Good Idea.

 

[darktone]

If you are betting same size every fixed number of points - like every 100 points - your average price would be at the middle between the first entry and last one , thats why its not feasible , you need 50% retracement to just get back to BE .

As in, bung em on, leave em on, and hope for 50% + retrace before the account goes pop. Id agree.

Fortunately, for me at least, that is exactly what I am

doing.
If you havent 'managed' to grasp that after 40 pages. I dunno what else to say to ya.

 

[tar]

As in, bung em on, leave em on, and hope for 50% + retrace before the account goes pop. Id agree.

Fortunately, for me at least, that is exactly what I am

doing.
If you havent 'managed' to grasp that after 40 pages. I dunno what else to say to ya.

I know thats why i told you to open a separate thread to explain in details on real prices .

 

[darktone]

I'm not reading the pervious 41 pages, but FWIW, I only use stops on volatile, liquid instruments such as indices and FX. And even then I tend to move them a lot depending on
a) overall day/week i;m having
b) my own conviction levels
c) the realisation that invariably a stop tends to be the same point of capitulation for most people in indices and forex , and inevaitably the market runs to the stops. therefore it's wrong!

Good luck trying to explain point c) in this thread. :cheesy:

While your here, as a fellow with much experience as an MM. Could you spare 5 mins to pop in here an help a brother out. Poor lads been 'scammed' rotten by his broker.

 

[darktone]

I know thats why i told you to open a separate thread to explain in details on real prices .

I think I done more than my fair share of explaining with real prices, real trades, real statements (apart from the profit and lolss ). I barely got the will to login let alone do another journal.
For anyone who hates themselves enough to wade through my bs, heres the bulk of it.

post 28
General method blurb and details of what I did at the time.
post 103
to
post 107
Exits / conversation with ze market.
post 166
An unbelievable trade. Till the curtains go back.
post 204
Its all hypothetical cr@@
post 311
loooooser.

IMO its better to open a live journal to illustrate your points instead of talking hypothetically .

Good Idea.

Well theres the hypotheticals, and then theres summit else. Bit nicer than 11720 ish, just sayin .
No reason that tim, or anyone else, couldnt have done exactly the same. Imho.

 

[tar]

I think I done more than my fair share of explaining with real prices, real trades, real statements (apart from the profit and lolss ). I barely got the will to login let alone do another journal.
For anyone who hates themselves enough to wade through my bs, heres the bulk of it.

post 28
General method blurb and details of what I did at the time.
post 103
to
post 107
Exits / conversation with ze market.
post 166
An unbelievable trade. Till the curtains go back.
post 204
Its all hypothetical cr@@
post 311
loooooser.




Well theres the hypotheticals, and then theres summit else. Bit nicer than 11720 ish, just sayin .
No reason that tim, or anyone else, couldnt have done exactly the same. Imho.

Apparently you have alot of time on your hands mate :cheesy: , you didnt explain anything in real-time trading ...

 

[darktone]

Apparently you have alot of time on your hands mate :cheesy: , you didnt explain anything in real-time trading ...

Loadsa time on my hands mate , to much of which has been spent recently on T2W.
Did you miss 103 through 107?
Not being funny mate but I reckon the average 10yr old would get the general message of them 'real-time trading' posts.

----
"So you were offered +100 but you tried for +130, then when you were offered +80 you tried for +105?.. So, youre just trying to get a better deal then.. Is that it?"

Yep, thats the lions share of it.

"Wow, thats easy!"

Yeah, I know.
----

Heres tmrws mind control maintenance wallpaper all prepped n ready to go, guessing you gona be a busy boy pippin the dax up down round and round

Ah man, even mi ego has run out of puff for this thread.. booo

 

[darktone]

I like this exit.
Theres those whoda em all up at 44, either trading out or to a hard stop. This trader held out for another couple o minutes and got out at 56! Whether at market, or limit, this guy turned a 10 yard loss into a 7.5 yard loss.
He reduced his loss by 25%, he sought value.

Good job. Sincerely. :clover: