How not to think correctly.

chump said:
Let me clarify that last statement , NOT everybody can unlearn . I could spend an hour explaining the why of that ,but frankly I just cannot be bothered...I'd rather keep taking their money on the grounds they don't know what to do with it anyway ;)

If you ever would feel inclined to spend an hour explaining why and how, I'll be listening :)
I think the brain is more moldable than we all like to believe (depending on which stage of your life you're in)...
 
Joules MM1 said:
the obvious challenge to me is that the trial group did not actually have anything at stake....so they were trained or have learnt to anticipate the worst and when the outcome was concluded the end result was ambiguous.... they had nothing at stake, hence the loss has no relavance to actuality of personal loss, the impact is muted....also in such clinicals the regime is carried in an amoral background.....the controllers conduct themselves in a neutral way and don't place an emotional set-up....the forum is pristine......the trading arena is not (in that sense)....what makes the major difference to trading actions is the level of personal stake...how much we stand to actually lose.....a clinical trial cannot reproduce this totally without genuine commitment.....fruit of piosened tree and such......

I concur with your analysis, but most experiments by nature have to be conducted in "closed" environment where certain parameters are set from the start. The parameters surrounding those participants are obviously not quite the same as those surrounding ourselves in the trading arena. But nevertheless, I think there is truth to the fact that we are often more afraid of losing money then of the loss itself.
 
Just to throw a spanner in the works.
Most talk of the fear of loss or indeed the (fact) that they have lost money.
Hardly anyone talks about the fear of winning. It's a very real fear.....
 
Very Good.

chump said:
how good are we at using the data strategically?QUOTE]

And in case the strategy has enough unused upside potential, what critical aspects should be improved first.

Small objectives.

super
 
mind-provoking:what the bleep do we know?

Im currently whatching a dvd that has some fundamental relevance to the challenge of correct thinking.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Bleep-Do-We-Know/dp/B0006UEVQ8/sr=8-1/qid=1167314357/ref=pd_bbs_1/105-5911425-8840418?ie=UTF8&s=dvd


Product Description
WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?! is a new type of film. It is part documentary, part story, and part elaborate and inspiring visual effects and animations. The protagonist, Amanda, played by Marlee Matlin, finds herself in a fantastic Alice in Wonderland experience when her daily, uninspired life literally begins to unravel, revealing the uncertain world of the quantum field hidden behind what we consider to be our normal, waking reality. She is literally plunged into a swirl of chaotic occurrences, while the characters she encounters on this odyssey reveal the deeper, hidden knowledge she doesn?t even realize she has asked for. Like every hero, Amanda is thrown into crisis, questioning the fundamental premises of her life that the reality she has believed in about how men are, how relationships with others should be, and how her emotions are affecting her work isn't reality at all!
 
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Joules MM1 said:
.........in Bens case, skip the work and disrespect the authority......sure plenty of sprinters get away with masks.....but they know about themselves.......just like the chatter who makes out how well they are doing.....they know......they also know the plan they are using and it's flaws ..........and ........some don't have a plan or strategy.......

Many (most?) of the difficulties which traders encounter stem from the fact that we must create our own market realities, even if the object in doing so is to engage that reality "out there". For various reasons, however, many (most?) traders develop a proprietary interest in whatever reality they have created, particularly if that reality has "worked" for them. If that reality hasn't worked, they will begin to rationalize the failure, fervently believing that they can tap-dance their way out of their dilemma. And the worse things get, the faster they dance. Hence one gets comments like "according to my backtest, I ought to be doing much better than I am", or "my expectancy is fabulous so why isn't it showing up in my account balance" and so on. They acknowledge that something is wrong, but they devote their efforts to improve the situation by focusing on the map. Usually the wrong map. And whatever reality they're operating in has little to do with the objective reality -- the territory -- where the money is.

All of this is not unlike the abused spouse who insists that her husband really loves her, or the fat who insist that they are really and truly healthy, or the smoker who clings to the memory of his grandfather who smoked three packs of non-filters a day along with a quart of whisky and lived to be 103. According to whatever realities they've created for themselves, whatever they're doing must be working because it has to. But it doesn't. And it isn't.

The fat will often do nothing until the doctor tells them to lose the Cadbury or their kidneys will fall out. Smokers will often do nothing until they begin to cough blood, and sometimes not even then. The trader who is negotiating the wrong reality will often do nothing until he's gone bankrupt. Sometimes more than once. Though if the gods have a sense of humor in this case, they'll keep him afloat, the "death of a thousand cuts", in order to amuse themselves for as long as possible.

But what to do about it? There's not much that can be done until they're ready. In the meantime, one can marvel at the sales of books, DVDs, CDs, seminars, courses, "retreats", chat rooms, newsletters, software, etc etc.

Db
 
superfly said:
Im currently whatching a dvd that has some fundamental relevance to the challenge of correct thinking.

I'm not sure how to interpret your first sentence (ironic?), but that movie is actually more an example of incorrect thinking than anything. It tries to bridge quantumphysics and spirituality, but leaves out the scientific approach. You can't extrapolate every law that applies to subatomic particles to the macroscopic world in the way it is represented in this movie.

Of anything, this movie is more pseudoscience and gives nothing but a subjective view on what's going on in the minds of the creators. People featured in the movie promote similar ideas... any movie that would call itself a documentary should at least offer some contrarian views so that the viewer can make up his own mind, instead of sit passively in his seat swallowing all the propaganda.

Much of this can be explained by the fact that the producers are members of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment and have their own specific agenda. But it does make up for some entertainment, if you're into that kind of stuff... But I'm not a film critic...
 
firewalker99 said:
I'm not sure how to interpret your first sentence (ironic?), but that movie is actually more an example of incorrect thinking than anything. It tries to bridge quantumphysics and spirituality, but leaves out the scientific approach. You can't extrapolate every law that applies to subatomic particles to the macroscopic world in the way it is represented in this movie.

Of anything, this movie is more pseudoscience and gives nothing but a subjective view on what's going on in the minds of the creators. People featured in the movie promote similar ideas... any movie that would call itself a documentary should at least offer some contrarian views so that the viewer can make up his own mind, instead of sit passively in his seat swallowing all the propaganda.

Much of this can be explained by the fact that the producers are members of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment and have their own specific agenda. But it does make up for some entertainment, if you're into that kind of stuff... But I'm not a film critic...
Thanks for the background. Rest assure Im not into "this". Just a dvd I picked up at the local dvd-store.

Even as the film lacks hard scientific evidence, there are enough mindprovoking ideas presented in the film to activate some genuine selfreflections on the interaction between your eyes, brain, observation, thinking, reality...

super
 
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B]chump[/B]

Each view adds data which if I interpret it correctly brings a more comprehensive knowledge of the object. I see the financial markets in the same way and price is one of the 'sliced' views. Can that view be distorted , yes it can. That brings us though to the argument is it the data that is distorted ,or is it the way the data is interpreted that leads to the distortion. In other words is it the tool ,or the hand on the tool that leads to undesireable results.

Just so.
However the problem resides therefore in gleaning a true data set, if, you are examining price, defined by market price.

The market price can be composed of;
*sentiment
*arbitrage
*hedging
*off screen orders
*the psychology of price driving price [price reacts to itself, driving the traders to reposition]
*non-market price viz. value of the business [fundamentals]
*others

To accurately gauge all the components requires;
*knowledge
*time
*information [not generally available in a timely manner]

Components required to capitalize on price knowledge;

*non-leveraged positions
*methodology if leveraged to sit through whipsaws if necessary
*analysis tools [that quantify, rather than qualify]
*analysis tools that qualify [consistent, robust]

but perhaps of even more importance how good are we at using the data strategically. In other words it is not simply what we know (data) that derives our results , it's what do we do by way of action with that data. There's a lot of evidence to suggest the latter is at least as important as the former which I have expressed before as being "it ain't the tool" ,it's the hand that guides the tool" that makes the money.

Certainly.
Are you talking about "themes" at this point? Or, individual psychology?
The two can be quite closely inter-related, but, easier to define if approached on an individual basis.

An example possibly of a very broad and enduring theme, has been, and still is, the theme of inflation, the dollar, and gold. I notice however that oil has crept into the equation recently.

Joules

.........in Bens case, skip the work and disrespect the authority......sure plenty of sprinters get away with masks.....but they know about themselves.......just like the chatter who makes out how well they are doing.....they know......they also know the plan they are using and it's flaws ..........and ........some don't have a plan or strategy.......

we know.......not the gear.......Jesse Livermore had a tape machine......

An interesting analogy.
We have BJ, who won an Olympic Gold, due to the use of Winstrol [stanoazol] & JL with his tape machine

I presume here, that you are inferring that JL, would have succeeded, or failed, irrespective of his having a ticker, at a time when they were relatively rare to retail traders. This begs the question, which chump was alluding, does access to raw data, add an advantage, or is it the interpretation?

I think that you are inferring the same; viz. JL would have come to the same conclusions with or without the ticker. However, we enter a very interesting area with athletes and performance enhancing drugs...........placebo effects [psychologically driven] possible? Absolutely.
Measurable & Quantifiable physiological effects? Again, the answer is yes.

With the placebo effect, the brain fools itself, and raises the performance level. This is true through all medicine, and human endeavour, is it also true for the analysis of data within financial markets?

Can someone look at the map, an incorrect map, yet still navigate the territory?

jog on
d998
 
The pain of losing outweighs the joy of winning (2)

It reminds me of an experiment, which I don't recall exactly but this is about what happens:

Suppose you won 200EUR at the poker table and you're playing the last hand. Now there's only you and one player left in the game. There's 50EUR for grabs if you play by the normal rules, that's what's lying on the table. Instead of betting normal size he challenges you to guess one of the cards he's holding (you don't even have to know it's colour, you just need to say "a ten", "a queen", etc...giving you a chance of about 1 out of 3 being correct). He will double what's at stake, making it 100EUR. If you're wrong however, you gain nothing but you get back your part of the 50EUR (that you bet). Your hand looks very strong but you figure why take a gamble? So the sensible thing to do is to call and not led yourself be lured into the bet (folding is not an option as there are no other players).

Now consider the same situation, but you're holding nothing (not even a single pair) and you know you should have folded long ago. The odds are stacked against you, as you watch the other player smile in disguise. Now, he's offering you a chance to lose nothing, if you can guess one of the cards he's holding (same principle as before). But it's not unconditionally... you only get to guess once and if you're wrong you'll have to pay him twice what's on the table (50x2=100EUR). Chances are you will in fact take a guess and risk it, although the safe bet would be to fold...

To sum things up... one is willing to take more risk if it means avoiding losses, but is more conservative when he's given the chance to gain more profits... Probably Not everyone will respond to the above situations in a similar matter, I suspect most of those here will in fact not...
 
starspacer

I've deleted all your posts on this thread - if you have nothing constructive to say please desist from posting. Thank you.

jon
 
firewalker99 said:
After we enter a trade long (or short), we will look for signals confirming that we are right. Unless the setup is cleary and objectively defined, we will be trading on a hunch and looking for every reason that confirms our belief that price is going to travel up, ignoring the obvious elements that indicate otherwise.

Instead, falsifiability offers a criterion that could help us develop a better, more objective mindset.

An this is exactly what my favorite future's trader, Ken Wood (aka "Woodie") teaches. Don't look for an excuse to stay in a trade once you have entered. Assume your trade is a bad one and you need to get out at the predetermined exit unless you are proven wrong.
 
May I wish you all a successful 2007.

I look forward to more robust debate in the New Year, although I will not be posting again on this thread (chump etc. will be pleased to know).

Please always remember that you gain more yourself from those who challenge 'consensus' opinion, than 'yes men' who agree with all you say.
 
When I see a new market high on thin participation , with the sectors which by weight have contributed in excess to the recent bull trend of the last 18 months going sideways in distribution ..I think I'm thinking correctly to be positioned accordingly with cash waiting for what probably comes next.
Not a lot of psychology to that of course ,but I'm not really thinking so much as just looking. ;)
I don't need to find the 'top' ...just where the reward isn't worth chasing is enough.
 
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