Help!! Career advice needed.

[Depth Trade]

NQR, your living in complete denial of what is happening all around you. The world is changing, education is changing. What used to be hard to obtain books and information is now obtainable by any 14 year old with computer access.

You still think tweeds and penny loafers will get you a job, when there are people that actually have real life experience and can prove themselves.

Your a perfect example of how your people have 'squeezed' themselves out of the global market place. People so obsessed with there prestige fantasy that they essentially closed themselves off to innovation.

Watch how the education system will disintegrate right before our eyes. What used to be a worthwhile education will be achievable by some kid lying in bed, in pajamas. Cheating on his MBA via the internet, because he's to lazy to get up and go to school.

Where are all these Grads with there unbeatable education?

Here on T2W one can have all the free advertising they could want. Free access to 67k people and there is hardly anyone trading, let alone making money.

Seriously, where's all these geniuses? Your going to tell me that thousands of grads applying for 2 positions are not going to advertise for free if they couldn't get a job?

If everything that is spoken about on this thread is so true, then were are these traders that are so educated, but in the 'grey zone' of finding employment. One would think they would be soliciting firms or potential employers.

One would not have to be intelligent to ask where are all these people.

Common sense would tell you these people don't exist.

DT

 

[Depth Trade]

Trading is an Art-form.

Like any Art-form, getting a Degree in Arts doesn't mean you'll be better than an artist from the streets.

Going to clown school does not make one a comedian.

DT

 

[NotQuiteRandom]

I should have guessed that DT would wish to join in.

This guy is as bright as Mr. It's Not My Fault I'm Ill Educated.

I do not need to respond to DT as I believe that this thread says it all:

www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=23121

Where is the money? It is in the Investment Banks and Hedge Funds. Who do they hire? the educated or the dreamers with £10k in a spreadbetting/FX/Futures account?

I will sit this one out while you two dream of your socialist utopia together.

Good luck guys!

 

[Depth Trade]

I should have guessed that DT would wish to join in.

This guy is as bright as Mr. It's Not My Fault I'm Ill Educated.

I do not need to respond to DT as I believe that this thread says it all:

www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=23121

Where is the money? It is in the Investment Banks and Hedge Funds. Who do they hire? the educated or the dreamers with £10k in a spreadbetting/FX/Futures account?

I will sit this one out while you two dream of your socialist utopia together.

Good luck guys!

NQR, step away from the mirror and try to focus on my question for a second.

Where are all the 100k grads that didn't get the 2 positions offered by the banks?

DT

 

[welco11]

I no longer wish to argue ethier.I am far from stupid and I am also far from being socialist.However I do also realise some people are put into circumstances under which they have no control.I did not go to university but I have worked extremely hard to get where I am.

I agree a good education is very important and I will hopefully now be able to provide an education for my children.I was just trying to give this young man a bit of hope, is that such a bad thing.

I do equate money with success but money is not the only way success can be measured.I do not blame other people or circumstances for anything.I've done the best with the chances I have been given.You should not just assume people are stupid because they have no degree.

 

[Avatar]

I need to make big bucks!! or my life will not be worth living.

Maybe with a bit of education you'll find other reasons to live.

I think part of the issue here is NQR's interpretation of what's going on and I'm in partial agreement with some of those things. A good education is important, though if the grades don't show it, the student has to have learned something from it. mace wants to succeed, but one can argue he hasn't put in the work to do so. There is a sense of desperation and frustration here, and that's not good for trader mentality.

I'd say mace is better able to succeed if he works hard, works smart, and not be so fixated about money in the beginning.

 

[Atilla]

Maybe with a bit of education you'll find other reasons to live.

I think part of the issue here is NQR's interpretation of what's going on and I'm in partial agreement with some of those things. A good education is important, though if the grades don't show it, the student has to have learned something from it. mace wants to succeed, but one can argue he hasn't put in the work to do so. There is a sense of desperation and frustration here, and that's not good for trader mentality.

I'd say mace is better able to succeed if he works hard, works smart, and not be so fixated about money in the beginning.

Here are some thought inducing stuff.

Read it slowly and carefuly. Let those thoughts wash all over you...



People are different.
People are the same.

Both statements true.
Each statement contradicts the other.

Equal people should be treated equally.
It goes without saying that unequal people should be treated unequally.

Markets are not based on equality but equity and efficiency.

Society should be based on equality. Capitalist markets are social rejects outcasts (I'm not a communist!).

Capitalism and socialism are incompatible. They create friction. That's why we have politicians who decide how the cake baked by capitalists should be devided up by the socialists.

Socialists can bake cakes too but not as much or tasty as the capitalists. Dividing a tasteless cake is not as much bother as a delicious one, that's why communist politicians don't get to play musical chairs.

Take the ingredients of life and bake your cake and eat it.

You can tell people your recipee for a good cake but no body likes being force fed even recipees let alone cakes that don't look and feel right.

You may change your mind if you taste the other persons cake but first you'd have to learn to fly across the canyon to get to the other side.

At the end of the day, you can bake your cake have it and eat it...

Enjoy all that you do!

 

[mace_d_ace2]

Hey guys, i have been away looking for a job!!! Found one at last. Thanks for all the great information and not so great information from some people, but 95% has been great.

 

[Atilla]

Hey guys, i have been away looking for a job!!! Found one at last. Thanks for all the great information and not so great information from some people, but 95% has been great.

Congratulations old boy... Well done.

Run it like it is your own business and you will get far.

 

[barryb]

Change the record welco. If you're obsessed with money and not in trading itself then you'll almost certainly fail.

 

[PualoP]

Change the record welco. If you're obsessed with money and not in trading itself then you'll almost certainly fail.

I agree, what in effect your saying is "I want to be a heavy weight boxer becuase they earn loads of cash, let me in the ring now!!"

As a side note though there is nothing wrong with wanting loads of money. My advice, and looking back over my career choice, I would suggest you look at Human Resources at an IB. Sounds pretty gay I know but those guys pull in 6 figures and there is no stress or risk!! When times are good and you recruit profitable traders you get a nice bonus, and when there's a down turn in the market you get to fire them. Think about it....... :cheesy:

 

[mace_d_ace2]

Great info guys. If anybody wants to offer me there opinions, i can be contacted at [email protected] Thanks.

 

[ragingbull8]

''People without degrees are there to clean my toilet''

I came accross this post and am amazed at what I am hearing from NQR so had to post a reply..... It amazes me that someone would have such a snobbish and arrogant attitude.


I've been in the city for years and I know plenty of kids who are natural salesmen, coming in with just GCSE's, getting through their Sii's and having very rewarding career's earning alot of money. Fair enough you may need to start in a 'hard sell' advisory role and get a few years experience but it is a way into a world normally reserved for top graduates.

''Its better to be at the bottom of a ladder that you want to climb than half way up one you don't''

Part time degree's are doable while getting both experience and your Sii's. By the time most 22 year olds are steppin out of uni you could be about to finish your part time degree, have 4/5 years experience and all your professional qualifications. Who would you employ??

I know there will be people who disagree with this but the world is changing alot and you find employers ain't as closed minded as they used to be.

 

[Jbat001]

Face it - the world is changing at an increasing rate and the barrow boys of the past went out with Nick Leason. There are a few left but they are a dying breed outside of bucket shops and arcades.

I understand that you are not well educated - your grammar indicates this clearly enough - but I do not think that you should encourage the kid to dream. Dreaming is what you do when you are asleep. Not everyone is meant to succeed, by definition.

You think Nick Leeson was the past? Hmmm, what about LTCM? What about Amaranth? You can have the best technical skills in the world, spend a sh!tload on research and personnel, and STILL lose! There will be more in the future, you can be certain of it.

I thought the forum was for constructive support?

 

[NotQuiteRandom]

I am confident that the support and advice that I have offered several members of the forum with regards to their careers is perfectly constructive.

I do not see that LTCM and other blow-ups are relevant in this instance. The original question centred around what one should do to get a job at an investment bank as a trader. The answer is very simple... get a good education.

Investment banks do hire some uneducated sales people but the majority of the uneducated employees are in the back office, making coffee or cleaning the toilets. Markets are competitive, the potential for substantial rewards is great and a solid education is required. I challenge anyone to apply for a serious trading role within an investment bank without an education. Doubtless this challenge will cause someone to take advantage of the right to forum anonymity and exclaim that they are a big shot trader at Goldmans with 2 GCSEs and a wooden leg but, all joking apart, IT IS ALL ABOUT EDUCATION. This is an empirically observable and publicly stated recruitment criterion.

I make no apology that a few uneducated people feel excluded but, despite the "me too" society in which we live, there will always be things that some people can not have. Investment Banks are pure capitalism, real meritocracies and this is how it has to be. I think that anyone considering such a career is best served with this in mind and that the discerning will take comfort in it.

NQR

 

[Jbat001]

I am confident that the support and advice that I have offered several members of the forum with regards to their careers is perfectly constructive.

I do not see that LTCM and other blow-ups are relevant in this instance. The original question centred around what one should do to get a job at an investment bank as a trader. The answer is very simple... get a good education.

Investment banks do hire some uneducated sales people but the majority of the uneducated employees are in the back office, making coffee or cleaning the toilets. Markets are competitive, the potential for substantial rewards is great and a solid education is required. I challenge anyone to apply for a serious trading role within an investment bank without an education. Doubtless this challenge will cause someone to take advantage of the right to forum anonymity and exclaim that they are a big shot trader at Goldmans with 2 GCSEs and a wooden leg but, all joking apart, IT IS ALL ABOUT EDUCATION. This is an empirically observable and publicly stated recruitment criterion.

I make no apology that a few uneducated people feel excluded but, despite the "me too" society in which we live, there will always be things that some people can not have. Investment Banks are pure capitalism, real meritocracies and this is how it has to be. I think that anyone considering such a career is best served with this in mind and that the discerning will take comfort in it.

NQR

While I agree with the notion that not everybody can attain the greatest heights of distinction within the financial sphere, I feel it is the tone, rather than the content of what you are saying that is most difficult to accept.

Education is, no doubt, the cornerstone and linchpin of a successful career in Investment Banking or any of the other myriad related disciplines. I am sure that it is indeed a priceless commodity and, along with proficiency in the art and suitable experience, will yield great results.

However, a young neophyte has ben bold enough to ask our opinions, and while the general consensus is that getting into the industry is exceedingly hard, what is the justification for suggesting that relegation to toilet-cleaner status is all that beckons those without an A1 education? A meritocracy is a social order where hard work is rewarded, and honest shrewdness leads to results - meritorious by definition.

If you believe that capitalism is synonymous with meritocracy, I fear you are gravely mistaken. Much of capitalism, you will no doubt agree, is about who can shaft who the hardest, and has little to do with actual merit. To paraphrase Iago in Othello, success in a capitalist system:

"is a most false imposition, oft got without merit, and lost without deserving"

Investment Banks are full of highly trained, highly intelligent, and very ruthless young men. With the greatest possible respect, the suggestions that you have put are cruel. To suggest that those without academic education are good for only menial jobs is not only unfair, but in the context of hundreds of thousands of skilled craftsmen operating in the UK, also manifestly false.

 

[NotQuiteRandom]

While I admire your ability to quote Shakespeare I am afraid that I do not understand your logic, nor do I feel that the words of a playwright can add to it.

Let us deconstruct your points and consider the proposed logical nexus:

1) You dislike the certainty and directness of my advice. This is a subjective determination and is fine. I do not believe in dreaming and was telling the young man how to get to his desired destination. That the path is well defined and not for everyone is neither here nor there in my opinion. Plenty of well educated people succeed and many members on this forum have that as an option. I neither understand nor apologise for your sensitivities.

2) Dictionary.com quote the following definition of meritocracy:

–noun, plural -cies.

i. an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth.

ii. a system in which such persons are rewarded and advanced: The dean believes the educational system should be a meritocracy.

iii. leadership by able and talented persons.

Ability and talent are a function of good education, not of, as you put it, "stuffing people". I do not believe that the musings of Shakespeare's character detracts from the literal definition. Knocking the capitalist system is your right but it isn't going anywhere so you better get used to it.


3) That you find the requirement for a solid education within an investment bank context to be cruel made me smile. I do not understand. Reverting to the question posed (paraphrased) "how do I get an IB job" and the answer presented (also paraphrased), "good education". There is no cruelty in this truth as I see it, however cruelty is also subjective and you are clearly very sensitive.

4) Skilled craftsmen? Sorry? I am not interested in differentiating between who fixes my toilet and who cleans it. The discussion is about investment bank traders.

Please no not continue to preach hope, dreams and socialism on what is an inherently capitalist forum.

NQR

While I agree with the notion that not everybody can attain the greatest heights of distinction within the financial sphere, I feel it is the tone, rather than the content of what you are saying that is most difficult to accept.

Education is, no doubt, the cornerstone and linchpin of a successful career in Investment Banking or any of the other myriad related disciplines. I am sure that it is indeed a priceless commodity and, along with proficiency in the art and suitable experience, will yield great results.

However, a young neophyte has ben bold enough to ask our opinions, and while the general consensus is that getting into the industry is exceedingly hard, what is the justification for suggesting that relegation to toilet-cleaner status is all that beckons those without an A1 education? A meritocracy is a social order where hard work is rewarded, and honest shrewdness leads to results - meritorious by definition.

If you believe that capitalism is synonymous with meritocracy, I fear you are gravely mistaken. Much of capitalism, you will no doubt agree, is about who can shaft who the hardest, and has little to do with actual merit. To paraphrase Iago in Othello, success in a capitalist system:

"is a most false imposition, oft got without merit, and lost without deserving"

Investment Banks are full of highly trained, highly intelligent, and very ruthless young men. With the greatest possible respect, the suggestions that you have put are cruel. To suggest that those without academic education are good for only menial jobs is not only unfair, but in the context of hundreds of thousands of skilled craftsmen operating in the UK, also manifestly false.

 

[edu]

I think it has nothing to do with education.
It´s all about how much profit you can generate consistently... imho

 

[NotQuiteRandom]

edu - I agree that you are 100% right in a generic trading context. The original question however related to a young guy getting a job at an investment bank as a trader.

NQR

 

[ragingbull8]

I am confident that the support and advice that I have offered several members of the forum with regards to their careers is perfectly constructive.

I do not see that LTCM and other blow-ups are relevant in this instance. The original question centred around what one should do to get a job at an investment bank as a trader. The answer is very simple... get a good education.

Investment banks do hire some uneducated sales people but the majority of the uneducated employees are in the back office, making coffee or cleaning the toilets. Markets are competitive, the potential for substantial rewards is great and a solid education is required. I challenge anyone to apply for a serious trading role within an investment bank without an education. Doubtless this challenge will cause someone to take advantage of the right to forum anonymity and exclaim that they are a big shot trader at Goldmans with 2 GCSEs and a wooden leg but, all joking apart, IT IS ALL ABOUT EDUCATION. This is an empirically observable and publicly stated recruitment criterion.

I make no apology that a few uneducated people feel excluded but, despite the "me too" society in which we live, there will always be things that some people can not have. Investment Banks are pure capitalism, real meritocracies and this is how it has to be. I think that anyone considering such a career is best served with this in mind and that the discerning will take comfort in it.

NQR

I wonder how much you actually know about how investment banks recruit and what they look for........

Sure a top degree would look very good when going for a job but you need to have a personality and balls to be a real success. Analysts... sure go and get a top degree and help other people make money but to be a sales trader, building relationships and a quick brain for numbers are more favorable in my book.

I am going to suggest something rather controversial now!!

I think that the people who spend all their teenage years and early 20's (even late 20's in some cases!) with their heads buried in books DON'T HAVE THE SOCIAL AND LIFE SKILLS TO BE A TRADER. I am referring to sales traders here by the way, the kid in the original post said he wanted money. These people are the people who help people like me make money. Sure analysts make good money and im not saying that all people are like that who get masters or wateva because that would be ridiculous to suggest.

The big boy firms tend to say one thing via HR and wen you meet the desk manager for an interview he will size you up looking past your education. A degree proves you can stick something out, as does holding a job for years. Commited and intrested in the markets?? Well all the Sii's would tell me that as much as any finance degree, in fact they are degree level qualifications. http://www.sii.org.uk/web5/infopool.nsf/HTML/qQualifications#Framework

I think NQR hasn't been working in the CITY for a few years (at least 20!), if he has at all. Don't try to put forward your view if you don't know what you are talking about.