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wasp

wasp

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I have never, apart from trading forums, read a single extract from anyone who has written a book, proved it big, failed or anything in between and/or all of the above.

As it stands, I am more than content with my skills, knowledge and understanding of the markets I trade and more importantly, the participants.

Education is vital to learning, but I stand in the school of experience over theory and whilst there may be some rather unhappy people if I tried to pursue a brain surgery career through trail and error, I think it has worked out well in this field.

Anyhow, many newbies ask questions and many people post quotes from different people and books and it all just goes over my head.........

From Wyckoff to Livermore and dbp to Bo Yoder... Can these people, one of which I believe shot himself?, really teach anyone any more than experience can? Are these people worth noting and aspiring too, copying even...?

Only one famous quote I can ever think of that emphasizes my relation to the markets was by Bruce Lee!

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.
 
wasp said:
I have never, apart from trading forums, read a single extract from anyone who has written a book, proved it big, failed or anything in between and/or all of the above.

As it stands, I am more than content with my skills, knowledge and understanding of the markets I trade and more importantly, the participants.

Education is vital to learning, but I stand in the school of experience over theory and whilst there may be some rather unhappy people if I tried to pursue a brain surgery career through trail and error, I think it has worked out well in this field.

Anyhow, many newbies ask questions and many people post quotes from different people and books and it all just goes over my head.........

From Wyckoff to Livermore and dbp to Bo Yoder... Can these people, one of which I believe shot himself?, really teach anyone any more than experience can? Are these people worth noting and aspiring too, copying even...?

Only one famous quote I can ever think of that emphasizes my relation to the markets was by Bruce Lee!

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.
Click to expand...

It can be as simple as One word which jumps out at you.....but this is only the start ...and all the thought processes and real work still has to be done .
 
wasp said:
I have never, apart from trading forums, read a single extract from anyone who has written a book, proved it big, failed or anything in between and/or all of the above.

From Wyckoff to Livermore and dbp to Bo Yoder... Can these people, one of which I believe shot himself?, really teach anyone any more than experience can? Are these people worth noting and aspiring too, copying even...?
Click to expand...

Maybe if you read their books you wouldn't need to ask :idea:

Better to read something you don't need than it is to need to read something !
 
wasp said:
I'd rather not clutter my mind with worthless information if not needed.
Click to expand...

Why start this thread then? You cannot make a judgement about the worth of information unless you have read it. Do you read my posts? :LOL:

Anyway...time to unsubscribe again...
 
new_trader said:
Why start this thread then? You cannot make a judgement about the worth of information unless you have read it. Do you read my posts? :LOL:

Anyway...time to unsubscribe again...
Click to expand...

Ahhh, the beauty of discussion boards... I wonder why some people join them?

I asked, as there are hundreds out there are the consensus of members who have read them would give me an idea of any that may be of interest...
 

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new_trader said:
Maybe if you read their books you wouldn't need to ask :idea:

Better to read something you don't need than it is to need to read something !
Click to expand...

Ahh yes, but, I did that with Socrates here and know I am stuck with all his worthless information rattling around my brain and if only someone had warned me.......
 
Experience cannot be gained without the relevant information of a particular field being known i.e. you cannot trade without the basic knowledge of how the markets work. information that would have to be learned. I am a great believer in having a wealth of knowledge the more the better, if i read a book that is 99% irrelevant but has a golden nugget 1% of information relevant to me, was it waste of my time reading the book? only the results of that knowledge would tell. but without first investing the time to read the book i will never know or indeed grow. Now with regards to experience i personally believe it to be my greatest ally but without the pieces of information/knowledge i have picked up on my journey i.e. mentors, books and sites like these i would not be able to have that experience. so in closing i would have to say that the two go hand in hand you cannot have one without the other.
 
Mikeyfx said:
Experience cannot be gained without the relevent information of a particular field being known i.e. you cannot trade without the basic knowledge of how the markets work. information that would have to be learned. I am a great believer in having a wealth of knowledge the more the better, if i read a book that is 99% irrelevent but has a golden nugget 1% of information relevent to me, was it waste of my time reading the book? only the results of that knowledge would tell. but without first investing the time to read the book i will never know or indeed grow. Now with regards to experience i personally believe it to be my greatest allie but without the pieces of information/knowledge i have picked up on my journey i.e. mentors, books and sites like these i would not be able to have that experience. so in closing i would have to say that the two go hand in hand you cannot have one without the other.
Click to expand...

Agreed - also you don't necessarily know at the time of reading that this information will be useful in the future. Sometime in the future you may change your views and, in paticular, if you are new to the field of experience you may well do so as your experience grows and matures. Even if the information does not in anyway support your views now and in the future, it may serve to provide a contrary viewpoint, which will only serve to cement the viewpoint you have chosen to adopt.

There is an infinite human capacity to asborb knowledge, whether hands-on or by listening to others.

Therein lies the value of this forum.

Charlton
 
What most net losers or those that never manage to maximise their potential to the hilt never get is this:

Trading is simple.

The only people who try and make it out to be some variation of rocket science are those trying to sell a book or service, or those that don't get it, or those that will never get rich through trading.

I know quite a few traders, some of whom got pretty rich through trading, and there is not a single guy from that group who does not have some really simple method of making money.

The richer they get, the simpler the method.

At the end of the day the richest guys are inevitably always those who can ride a move to it's max, the guys who can hold on for a real move through all the wiggles on the way.

That said I would not recommend any newbie to not read the classics from and about the real masters, that is the people who made fortunes from trading, not those who earned a few bucks by writing about trading.

No need to reinvent any wheels, plus that way you can benchmark the really success relevant elements from the various styles of true outachievers, synthesize sthg from those elements that fits you, and not get lost on any uneccessary detours or irrelevant detractions that will keep you from ever making it to the top on your way.

It's just like if you want to become a pilot or lawyer, you wouldn't really make a good impression on future clients if you'd tell them you're in the process of muddling through yourself.

I have the fullest respect that you found your way yourself wasp, I'm just not sure if that is the most effective method to go about these things in life.

But if it worked and you're happy then that's all that counts what.

:)
 
BSD said:
What most net losers or those that never manage to maximise their potential to the hilt never get is this:

Trading is simple.

The only people who try and make it out to be some variation of rocket science are those trying to sell a book or service, or those that don't get it, or those that will never get rich through trading.

I know quite a few traders, some of whom got pretty rich through trading, and there is not a single guy from that group who does not have some really simple method of making money.

The richer they get, the simpler the method.

At the end of the day the richest guys are inevitably always those who can ride a move to it's max, the guys who can hold on for a real move through all the wiggles on the way.

That said I would not recommend any newbie to not read the classics from and about the real masters, that is the people who made fortunes from trading, not those who earned a few bucks by writing about trading.

No need to reinvent any wheels, plus that way you can benchmark the really success relevant elements from the various styles of true outachievers, synthesize sthg from those elements that fits you, and not get lost on any uneccessary detours or irrelevant detractions that will keep you from ever making it to the top on your way.

It's just like if you want to become a pilot or lawyer, you wouldn't really make a good impression on future clients if you'd tell them you're in the process of muddling through yourself.

I have the fullest respect that you found your way yourself wasp, I'm just not sure if that is the most effective method to go about these things in life.

But if it worked and you're happy then that's all that counts what.

:)
Click to expand...

Agree BSD and I'm not really thinking about the small fry who made a few bucks then put pen to paper but the real classics... Taking Livermore for example... Yes, human nature, fear and greed are the same as ever but reading about a man who made todays banks seem as timid and safe as Mother Teresa and ended up killing himself does not seem a better role model than Nick Lesson.

I am glad I have not read any books in that I learned all I have from watching and understanding the behaviour between the OHLC but is there a book that would have taught me to look at this, before I opened a chart? Is there a book, written by a great success that would have cut the BS and got right down to OHLC, S/R, HrH and HrL and reading between the lines... Especially relevant to our day? People may not have changed but the markets are very different to the 30's, 40' and 50's.......

Its a bit late for me now obviously but maybe I could have found my way quicker to reading the markets with a bit of literature and as I get quite a lot of PM's asking questions, a book recommendation or two would be handy as most don't fancy the idea of 3 years screen time!
 
MrGecko's Trading Anthology

1. Introduction.

Trading isn't very complicated, the most challenging task is learning how to handle the mind games.

2. Support and Resistance

Learn how to identify S&R levels on your charts. Learn by doing.

3. Price Action

Learn how to identify the behaviour of buyers and sellers at important prices (see Ch. 2).

4. Trade Management

Learn how to use Stop sizes, R:R, entry and exit strategies to your advantage.

5. Do what you should, not what you want

Get into the habit of following common sense.

6. Conclusion

Practice. Learn by doing. Stick to the material covered in chapters 2 - 5 and you'll get there in the end.

7. Compensation

Cheques made Payable to MrGecko...
 
What do you reckon, hardback or paperback? Should I try and sell in in WHSmiths?
 
Hi mate, I actually think that markets haven't really changed because people don't change, and all a market can do today is go up, down or sideways just like always, that a market is always moving in waves or trends or cycles or whatever you want to call them.

That is why to this day my favourite book is still one that was written a hundred years ago, Jesse Livermores fictionalised biography:

Amazon.com: Reminiscences of a Stock Operator (A Marketplace Book): Books: Edwin Lefèvre

That is a guy who started out penniless, and earned a fortune that would have made him a billionaire in todays money. He lost a few fortunes on the way too, but that's the nature of the game where rewards and risk are correlated, doesn't matter of it's in the world of a Donald Trump who faced a bankruptcy but jumped right back again, or if it is in trading. And Livermore did commit suicide, but was also suffering from life long depressions.

Other good books:

Amazon.com: Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom: Van K. Tharp: Books
This guy is not a trader and has his detractors, but you don't have to listen what he says about trading, what you should listen to though is what he says about money management and position sizing.

Amazon.com: Market Wizards: Interviews with Top Traders: Books: Jack D. Schwager, (and the second one)
Classics.

Amazon.com: Pit Bull: Lessons from Wall Street's Champion Day Trader: Books: Martin Schwartz,
Market Wizard who wrote his own book, a guy who averaged out at a non-compounding 33% / month, hit rate of 70, 80%, but stops larger than take profits, wanted to start a hedge fund to make the kind of money Tudor Jones made, but couldn't get his style to work with larger amounts of money, didn't become a billionaire then but still a multimillionaire which is fantastic anyway, and wrote a superbly entertaining book, a real gem, and he comes across as a guy you could have a great time with, umm, anytime. :)

Amazon.com: The Logical Trader: Books: Mark B. Fisher,
Guy made a fortune trading oil with a pretty simple mechanical system that a lot of his traders use also.

Amazon.com: Trader Vic--Methods of a Wall Street Master: Books: Victor Sperandeo,T. Sullivan Brown
Fellow market wizard.

Amazon.com: Trading Risk: Enhanced Profitability through Risk Control: Books: Kenneth L. Grant

and

Amazon.com: Trading in the Zone: Master the Market with Confidence, Discipline and a Winning Attitude: Books: Mark Douglas

The success relevant insights for me at least essentially consisted of the following:

One has to be able to explain - at the very least to oneself - what one is doing, and why it works.

For me that explanation is very simple, markets move in waves, and all you need to do is find a position where you can enter with a tight stop, that gets you out quickly when the wave fizzles out before it got properly started, leaving you with a small loss, but if you ride a winner all the way then you have creaated for yourself a system with some outstanding risk/reward ratios that is fully scalable.

As markets are just people creating the price of the moment it is equally clear to me that anything can happen at any time in the markets (all it takes are some large orders that can be anything, a hedge, a position being covered, somebody entering the market with a view diametrically opposed to yours, but that will still move markets against you and trigger your stop loss)...

Markets are just the sum of their participants actions all following their own agenda and that are not dancing to the tune of some great invisible conductor...

But you don't have to know what happens next to make money anyway (reacting to what happens is entirely sufficient)...

Losing is part and parcel of trading...

Trading is just a probability game, your ultimate success, be it a great income or your actual potential to become a billionaire, are down to the way that you generate and create your combinations of risk/rewards, hit rate, trading opportunities, and inherent scalability of your system.
 
The problem i have with gurus, is once you actually see the limits of their mthods, and that it is not much better, or even perhaps slightly (or much) worse than what you already have/do, i just tend to see them in the same light as a dodgy used car salesman trying to sell me his two cars welded together jobby, with the welding scars still visible, telling me it is a sound investment for the futures..
 
Good point J, I have no time for gurus or indeed any time for any sort of hero worship either.

What I do have a lot of time though is for benchmarking.

If I wanted to have a career in real estate I'd go have a very close look at what Donald Trump did throughout his career, and not go to ludicrous seminars run by guys who couldn't even afford a floor in one of the Donalds buildings.

No, I'd go look at the guys who made the mostest, in other words, and try and figure out what the truly success relevant element were that drove their success, always with the help pf some good old fashioned common sense, and then just go and do it myself.

Implementation á la Bill Gates is almost always more important than innovation.
 
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wasp said:
Only one famous quote I can ever think of that emphasizes my relation to the markets was by Bruce Lee!

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.
Click to expand...

Superb !

""Wu Wei" means natural action - as planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing".

The literal meaning of Wu Wei is "without action" and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice of wu wei and the efficacy of wei wu wei are fundamental tenets in Chinese thought and have been mostly emphasized by the Taoist school. The aim of wu wei is to achieve a state of perfect equilibrium, or alignment with the Tao, and, as a result, obtain an irresistible form of "soft and invisible" power.

In the traditional (partly Confucian) Chinese understanding of governance, a prince has only to sit at the right place, facing south, with a prince's traditional attributes, and his country will be well governed. In Lun Yu II.1., Confucius compares a virtuous prince to the North Pole in which he finds himself: he does not move and everything turns around him. There are magical justifications behind this idea of a power obtained by "inaction." It is the Chinese "correspondence", or "synchronicity" theory, where the macrocosm is reflected, or even duplicated, in microcosms. According to the theory, ordering the Emperor's palace is governing the country well: the palace is a homothetic reproduction of the country. Chinese history is full of examples of natural disasters cured by means such as the opening of a new door in the walls of the Imperial palace.

In the original Taoist texts, wu wei is often associated with water and its yielding nature. Although water is soft and weak, it has the capacity to erode even solid stone (e.g., Grand Canyon) and move mountains (e.g., landslides). Water is without will (i.e., the will for a shape), though it may be understood to be opposing wood, stone, or any solid aggregated material that can be broken into pieces.

Due to its nature and propensity, water may potentially fill any container, assume any shape; given the Water Cycle water may potentially go "anywhere", even into the minutest holes, both metaphorical and actual. Droplets of water, when falling as rain, gather in watersheds, flowing into and forming rivers of water, enjoining the proverbial sea: this is the nature of water. Furthermore, whilst always yielding downwards, water finds its own level in the 'dark valley' — where biological life is regenerated — analogous to the fecund reproductive organs."

Wu Wei - Doing without Doing
 
..."Wu Wei translates as 'not doing' or 'doing without doing' and like much of Taoist thought it goes against the way many things are done in our society. Really, the idea is to go with the flow around you and not struggle against the tide.

Wu Wei is often the Taoist concept that people have most trouble grasping. This is not really all that surprising since it seems to do away with the rigid notion of causality that the Western world-view is based upon. Typically, in order to get something done, it is considered that you must work at it. The more work and effort that is put in, the quicker it will happen.

However, this is not the Wu Wei approach. This is not 'doing without doing' it is simply 'doing'. To use Wu Wei is to have a kind of Taoist patience - it is to allow things to unfold in their own way, in their own time. This does not imply a complete lack of energy expenditure - just a recognition of the flow and cycles of the world around us. Acting at the appropriate time with the appropriate amount of force is the key. By appreciating at a more subtle level what is happening around him, holding onto nothing, and acting with simplicity the Taoist can flow with the Tao, and will always be in the right place at the right time.

The Taoist master becomes like the Tao itself - he does nothing, yet nothing is not done."

Follow the Path of Least Resistance, in other words, and great things will come to you with far less effort than fighting for them.
 
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