Greek Debt Crisis Simplified

Our politicians have been bought and paid for for decades and now it is catching up with them. GE, no income tax on 8 billion profits. Big oil companies still getting government subsidies after record profits last year. Military contractors getting filthy rich off wars we that we had no Constitutional grounds to start............More than 25000 paid lobbyists in Washington for a staff of 545 congressmen and women........... I could keep going all night at this, but you get the picture.................. I just hope our Republic can be saved.......
 
Problem is always the elite and leaders never the citizens who do as they can within the rules made for them.


I agree with you there. This is a worldwide issue because the elites have been pushing for a new world order for decades. I have heard the last 4 presidents of the United States call for it, just go look for it, it's there. What they really want is total control of the money and commodities etc.....I am quite sure that the bailouts here in the USA were just another scheme to steal trillions of taxpayers money and give it to banks and big corporations. And after they have looted the national treasuries, then they scream austerity, so that the working class can pay more while they still don't taxed. I read today that the US government is creating a new tax bill and that people here will be able to sign up for at work and give extra money out of their paycheck voluntarily to help pay down the national debt. Are the politicians for real........We live in fascist country here in the USA.

So, how long before the people wake up, rise up against it all ? They will need leaders of course, are there any in the making ?
 
Our politicians have been bought and paid for for decades and now it is catching up with them. GE, no income tax on 8 billion profits. Big oil companies still getting government subsidies after record profits last year. Military contractors getting filthy rich off wars we that we had no Constitutional grounds to start............More than 25000 paid lobbyists in Washington for a staff of 545 congressmen and women........... I could keep going all night at this, but you get the picture.................. I just hope our Republic can be saved.......

I hope so too, but I don't think the current guy is the one to do it.
 
"...in ancient Greece an uncircumcised and small ***** was culturally seen as desirable in a man, whereas a bigger or circumcised ***** was viewed as comical or grotesque (at least in the high-brow view), usually being found on "fertility gods, half-animal critters such as satyrs, ugly old men, and barbarians."

see what do them fuggin greeks no neway EH?

Small willies are good? LOL
 
A Greek and Italian were arguing over who had the superior culture. ...

The Greek says, "We have the Parthenon."

Arching his eyebrows, the Italian replies, "We have the Coliseum."

The Greek retorts, "We Greeks gave birth to advanced mathematics"

The Italian, nodding agreement, says, "But we built the Roman Empire."

And so on and so on until the Greek comes up with what he thinks will end the discussion. With a flourish of finality he says, "We invented sex!"

The Italian replies, "That is true, but it was the Italians who thought of having it with women."
 
I am only in my mid forties, but I know things were very different, even 20 years ago............I just want my children and future generations to have a constitutional republic to live in, and not our current nanny state.............
 
I was reading these lines and I wanted to express my opinion as well. As I am a Greek, I think that I am in position to know a lot more things about the situation in my country and the reasons behind this "sudden" debt crisis. Please note that I currently live in London (since 2007 with a small brake) but I keep track with things going on in Greece.

A little information about me. I placed my first trade in the Greek Stock market in 1999. As I was born in 1984 that would make me one of the youngest investors...:cheesy::cheesy: I am not quite sure whether there is indeed a natural tendency to become a trader or not, but I can confidently say that by that age(15 years old) I was very sure about my future studies (Economics) and my future career (a trader or a broker). The capital was "donated" by my father who was very proud about his son's activities. The capital was equal to 150, 000 Greek Drachmas (as that was the national currency in 1999). This equivalent amount in Euros is 440, but taking into account the time value of money this capital was around 1,000 Euros in today's world. Not bad at all for a 15 years old guy. So very summer that the school year would end , I would every day visit that brokerage firm where my father was a client. The Greek investors were not used to trade through trading platforms so the brokerage firms were pretty busy executing those trades manually. My brokerage firm was offering direct access, so I got used to the ladder. I had also the chance to interactive with various investors and traders and I could spot a lot of differences. I wanted to interact with as many as possible as I knew that this would be very useful for me. By contrast, all of my friends would spend their summers going on holidays but for a strange reason, I was very happy not going on holidays and spend my summers trading...

As expected, in 2002 I was given admission to the department of Economics at my city's university. I would enrol in October. The owner of that small brokerage firm (and head broker) having seen my strong interest in the Financial Markets, had a proposition for me. He was in need of an employee and he proposed an internship to me. I accepted it immediately. I was pretty much doing anything there, from administration to execution of trades and liaison with clients and the major financial institutions. I started my internship in June 2002 (before I become 18 in July) and left that company in August 2004. My remuneration was travel expenses only, but this was my very last concern...

Simultaneously, I was studying. I have to point out that my studies were to last 4 years as every other undergraduate course in Greece. In Greece when you study Economics, you undertake modules on various other subjects and not just purely Economics. Those modules were related to Accounting, Logistics etc. One of the modules that were taught at my uni was National Accounts. The alternative name for this module is Macroeconomic Accounting. If you want to find out what happens to an equity you have to look at the balance sheet. With the same token the National Accounts ("The balance sheet" of a country) would reveal important information about a country. Alongside with the module of public Economics I had developed a lot of skills in order to be able to understand the financial situation of one country. So I started to look at the case of Greece...

There we go:

None of the fiscal years from 1974 and on wards had a surplus. All of them had deficits...Some of those deficits amounted to the 10% of the GDP.

Debt levels were increasing every year. From 1981 they debt increased exponentially. In 1978 the debt was around 20% of the GDP and by the end of 80's it was around 100%...

The three pillars of the Greek Economy were (and remain) tourism, shipping and property development. They amounted to nearly 40% of the Greek GDP. However, tourism in Greece faced a lot of competition from other countries (like Turkey) that didn't adopt Euro and were far cheaper than Greece. A lot of ship owners were deserting Greece and were going to other countries with better tax regimes. The property market was clearly a bubble. In 2006 prices were up from 50 to 200% from 1999...As with dot.com I could see the outcome of that bubble. Anyway, the demand would not be sustainable as the demographics were indicating that the population was reducing and not increasing. So there were not any fundamentals reasons for those increases in value...This mixture was really "explosive"...

Trade balance: Most of the years, it was negative. From 2002 and on wards the trade deficit was increasing exponentially...This is because in 2002 Greece adopted Euro replacing the Greek Drachmash. A strong currency like Euro meant that products from other EU countries (especially from Germany) would be cheaper for Greeks. They were happy so they started to consume them massively. They were not concerned about the borrowed money they were using...

Employees in the public sector were doubled within a decade. So their wages. The word performance was not known to them, so they didn't bother to work hard. I doubt that some of them had ever worked properly... The public sector was increasing and the private sector was shrinking...A lot of businessmen faced enormous obstacles in investing and dealing with the public services. A lot of bureaucracy so even if you had a splendid business idea, you could not run a business without a lot of hassle... Sometimes you had to bribe or have a "link" in the public services to surpass those obstacles.

No stability in tax regime or any other law. The tax levels would change according to the needs of the Government! The same would apply for important laws. So investors could not be sure what to face in the near future. I felt sorry about investors that invested based on some rules and tax regime which were radically changed in a very short time and found themselves "trapped" in their investments...

Growth was quite robust I have to say. Some of the years we experienced growth of 4.5% and even 5%. A lot of bridges, new roads etc were being constructed. This resulted in GDP Growth. However, there was a reason. Most of those projects were subsidized by the EU. Some of them amounted to 50% of the total value of those projects. There were also allegations that many construction companies were reporting extremely high construction costs so they could get a greater subsidy..Sometimes the project would cost them only 10%...There was also a research paper that advocated that had it not been for the EU subsidies, then the growth would have been anything from 0 to 0.5%...


So everything was indicating that the situation could only get worse than better. I inquired to one my professors about the situation and we came to the same conclusion. When I asked why the lenders are lending us money and how are supposed to repay them (since we never had any surplus) I got this respond. On the assumption that the GDP would continue to rise and as a percentage would remain more or less the same they were happy to give us money...I was shocked by that answer! It could only frustrate me rather than explain me any reasons...If I was a bond investor I would never buy a Greek bond! Not with that yield! (Only 1 to 2% more than the German ones).

I have to say that I have always been in favour of the free markets and Capitalism. I have several times stated my views and that the structure of the Greek Economy had to be radically changed. I was opposed about my views by many Greeks. Some of my friends included. They could not see why we had to change anything since everything was "o.k." by that time...But this was not the only price I had to pay. I would soon have to pay a greater one...

In 2006, I was in the last year (actually in the last semester) of my studies. As I was ambitious I decided to pursue a Masters Degree so I decided to study in England. The prospects of finding a job there after my graduation were much greater than the ones in Greece (nearly zero...). But I had some modules left to pass...Then the Government decided to introduce a reform about the University Studies. This reform was in line with the Bologna process. The most important term of that reform would be to allow private universities to operate in Greece and there was a potential introduction of course fees to the courses in public universities (they were and are absolutely free). Private universities were operating at that point in Greece but the Degrees were not "recognized" by the Greek Education authorities. That meant that if you studied in a private university in Greece your degree would not be recognized. That meant that if you studied at the department of Sheffield university at my city (Thessaloniki, there is one over there), your degree would not be recognized. You had to go to England. Even for the same degree with the same structure (sic!).

Needless to say that there are political parties involved in the Greek universities. I will not comment any more but the Greek universities are extremely politicized. So the left parties were opposed to those reforms...In Greece there is a term that the university students can hold an assembly and vote for important decisions. I f there is a simple majority (more than 50% of the voters) they can take important decisions. So the left parties convinced the majority of the students and the decision was made. In late May, one week before the examination period, the university were to be locked up and shut down!!! Nobody would be allowed to enter. This decision was to be reconfirmed every week by the assembly... So the exams were cancelled! So I lost that examination period..Then I had only the chance to sit examinations in Sept where I didn't have enough time to pass all the modules (some of them were being examined the same day so you could not study both). So I didn't graduate in 2006 not because of my actions but because of the "right" of the students to decide to go on strike and not to let any examinations to be held... For the same reasons I lost the next examination period in January!! So I sat my last examinations in June-July 2007 and I graduated...

I lost one year of my life for no reason! Unemployment was extremely high (particularly among young people like me), reforms were being voted for but never imposed and nobody seemed to bother about the situation.. I felt sick about that situation!! I was ashamed to be a Greek! As I am a Patriot (and I am very proud of it) this was the most frustrating experience of my life. I knew that I could not change the whole world around me but only me. I wanted to escape this reality. As I was given admission from a UK university I left Greece in Sept 2007. When flying to London, I was relieved. I felt like I got out of the prison that I was living...

Here are some other examples of the Greek reality...

Back to my trading...I told you about my initial investment. As projected by any experienced, I soon blew up my account by 2002. I was unfortunate to trade in a falling market were short selling was not easily allowed and Derivatives were not present (they were introduced in 2002 but very few could open an account as there were strict criteria). Spread betting was something unknown to the Greeks and the only way to make money would be to buy stocks and sell them higher...You could not do the opposite... I reinvested and started trading and again I blew up my account by 2004 (the year that the bear market ended). The leverage was only 3:1 but there were wild moves on the stocks (a 12%drop in a stock within a day would not be that unusual...). So I decided not to give up and managed to gather some capital...This time I had a lot of experience and the bullish market that started in 2004 was in my favor. In 2006 (after 2 years) I managed a whole break even...I was very happy about it and thought that some profits would be very welcome for my future studies...

Then the Government decided to privatize one of its banks (Emporiki Bank). Credit Agricole was more than happy to bid for this bank. The idea of getting exposure to an economy with a growth rate of 4.5% and expanding consumer credit seemed ideal for the plans of that Group...They could see a lot of revenues...The profits were record high! The share was trading at about 21 Euros per share. Credit Agricole proposed a price of 23,50 Euros per share. Needless to say that the unions opposed this acquisition and the opposition parties blamed the government for selling off one of the most profitable organisations. They also pointed out the fact that this share was trading at about 80 Euros in 1999! So it would be very possible to reach that level again. Credit Agricole was desperate to get the deal and in an effort to entertain those reactions counter offered a price of 25 Euros per share which was accepted. It was premium of nearly 20% and Credit Agricole was a strategic investor that had the "know-how".

Remember, I told you that I have been investing in the Stock Market since 1999. I had experienced the bullish market that ended in a very bearish market some years later. I knew that we may be seeing the very last of the bullish market. I had seen that all before!!! A lot of companies were announcing share capital increases...As I was aware of the Greek situation and having read a lot of books about trading, I decided to withdraw all my money from my account. The waters were quite inhospitable and there were many "sharks" (in 2006, 50% of the daily volume was conducted by foreign investors as opposed to 10% in 1999. Many IB’s like Goldman Sachs were actively engaged with transaction in the Greek market) around. I didn't feel comfortable anymore and I decided to get out of the market as soon as possible...

The market kept on rising until 2007 (it was up more than 35 % from the level that I got out...). I felt stupid to be honest... I could see those potential profits..They could be a very significant contribution to my studies which were about to commence in London. At that moment, Emporiki bank was trading at around 35 Euros, 40% up from the price the French bank paid. Some other public companies (but not the ones that should have been first) were privatized. The opposition party (and now the governing Party Pa.So.K.) with his leader George Papandreou (and currently Prime Minister of Greece) was blaming the governing Party for those "sell offs"...

In late 2007 the Greek Market(in line with the other Stock Markets) started falling...Sooner or later the situation got much worse. The French would soon realize their deadly mistake! Just to let you know..In 1999 the General Index had a (all time) record high at 6,355. It fell to 1,400 in 2004! In 2007 it was trading at about 5,500(significantly higher than the previous low). Now it is trading at 1,251 units..

Emporiki bank was full of excessive employees. Credit Agricole tried to restructure the bank but their effort has not been successful until now. From 2006 only one fiscal year has been profitable. All the other fiscal years,the bank experienced massive losses..Now they are in need of capital injections...Please have a look at the chart of Emporiki bank for the last 25 years...

http://www.capital.gr/q.asp?s=%u0395%u039C%u03A0

This year the share was delisted... It was trading at 1, 72 Euros... Did I mention the 2(!!!) capital share increases that the French participated in order to support their investment???

This is the table with the major share holders:

http://www.capital.gr/xa/insiders.asp?s=%C5%CC%D0

Credit Agricole with a whopping 91% percentage... In their last (end of year) report the whole Group was performing reasonably well except from one of their subsidiaries...Needless to say which. It has been a nightmare to them! Poor guys...If only they knew in what sort of trouble they were getting into...But they were in position to know some things...In 2002 another public bank (Geniki Bank) was acquired by Societe Generale...Same story there...Heavy losses until now...The French seem to have not learnt their lesson!

The funniest of all was the fact that the current Prime Minister and leader of the opposition party in the past George Papandreou opposed and in some cases blocked many privatizations...In 2009 he committed to re-buy the Hellenic Telecommunications Organisation whose a minor part (25%) was sold to Deutsche Telecom. This was one of the main arguments before going to elections and winning them...He also advocated that there is plenty of money around and that the Greek should not worry at all. Everything was perfectly fine... Now the same person sold another portion of the National Telecommunication organisation at a price discounted by 50% of the original sale. He now tries to sell as many assets and privatize many companies that he originally opposed to. But now the prices that he could achieve would be only a fraction of what the Government would get in 2006 and 2007. On the other hand the (new) leader of the opposition Party (Nea Dimokratia, i.e "New Democracy") opposes to the privatization and sell offmany assets. He claims that he is able to manage a GDP surplus if he is elected as Prime Minister. The thing is that his party was governing Greece from 2004 until 2009. They could not achieve a surplus as "hard" as they tried..Now he claims to be able to achieve that. Some things will NEVER change...

Here are some other facts for your information. ..
In 2000 elections were to be held. The Prime Minister at that time Kostas Simitis (the one that agreed the very well-known SWAP with Goldman Sachs) was eager to be re-elected. As the stock market fell from its record highs he was implying that if he would be re-elected the Stock Market would rise again!!! Then "suddenly", days before the elections the Stock Market skyrocketed...He was indeed re-elected. Afterwards, the Greek public would be informed that many Greek funds managing public and private sector employees’ contributions were heavily buying stocks. Needless to say, that those “investments” resulted in a loss of 80 to 90% overall. Those fund managers were appointed by the Government. I highly doubt whether they had any previous experience in the financial markets. They only had to be liked by those Ministers to get that position Allegations were made that they were instructed by the Prime Minister to buy those stocks in order to manipulate the market. They were not “sufficient” evidences...Now those funds are not able to pay pensions...

In 1999, the Stock Market skyrocketed...One share was trading at 500 Greek Drachmas in Jan 1999. By September 1999 it was at 190,000 Greek Drachmas!!! 380 times more than it was trading 9 months earlier...So 1,000 Euros/Dollars (whatever) would result in 380,000 within 9 months...The Greek Finance Minister Giannos Papantoniou was very proud as he thought that this was a reflection of his correct Economic Policy. He called the Stock Market the “mirror” of the Economy. He and the Chairman of the Athens Stock Exchange (Panayiotis Koumniakis) were very happy to comment on the performance of market stating that it would continue to rise. As if they were analysts!!Nobody informed them that this was not their responsibility and that they should only care about their duties (which they didn’t). From Sept 1999 the Greek Stock market started its correction....Both of them were replaced later on...I have not heard of them for quite a while...They didn’t face any consequences...

As for the private investors?? They were hammered!! It was plain butchery!! There was not the opportunity to short the market and were unfortunate enough to listen to various politicians and “analysts” that the stock markets always go up...So they remained long...Needless to say that from 1999 until 2004 90%of those stocks lost more than 90% of their capitalization...Around 40+ lost over 99%...Nobody warned them and I think that many “investors” and financial institutions made a lot of money short selling (it was allowed for big financial institutions...). I can imagine that Goldman Sachs having privileged information about the situation (as they issued that SWAP) must have made tons of money...Many Greek investors lost their lifetime savings..As for the brokerage firm that I was working for??? It went out of business in 2005...Nobody was willing to invest in the Stock Market anymore...

In 2006 many Greek funds bought some OTC structured products from JP Morgan. For some “unknown” reason many funds bought the same product at the same time...These were highly complex structured products and according to the rules of the funds managing employees’ contributions, those instruments were banned. However, they all bought those instruments..The thing is that the price they paid was excessively high!!! A sort of Orange County Scandal...Allegations were made that many politicians were bribed by JP Morgan to “convince” those managers (appointed by them) to invest in those products...There were not “sufficient” evidences.. JP Morgan, as an act of good will (they were doing plenty of businesses with the Greek Government)l cancelled all the transactions...Plenty of other examples that politicians committed crimes against the Greek public..However, none of them faced any consequences...They got their privileges but didn’t pay for their mistakes...History repeats itself..

I want to give you one last example of the Greek reality. Having finished my studies at Masters Level, I joined the Greek Army in 2009 for nine months..It is a compulsory service that you have to do... There were ways to avoid it (declaring myself permanent resident of the U.K.), but as I didn’t run away from anything in my life I decided to join the army...I would soon regret it!!! I was appointed to join the Greek Armoured Corps and because of my age (25 as opposed to most of the other privates who were 19) and my studies, I was trained and given the rank of First Sergeant. I became the Tank Commander in a main battle tank... I was sent in a unit very close to the borders with Turkey. Those two countries have a decent record of various wars between them... At that unit they were plenty of mercenaries that were superior to me. These were guys aged from 18 to 26 , that didn’t attend any military academy (so no chance to become officers) and didn’t have any accomplishments in my life at all...As they realized the fact that they were dealing with someone that had some accomplishments in life, they thought that they could take their revenge!!! And they gave hard time to me...I was ordered to clean toilets (I was ordered more times than the other privates as everybody had to do it), to mop floors and do various other things... The officers didn’t bother to deal with this matter...Again, I was sick of myself for letting me getting into that situation and again sick of my country...I was a Patriot that wanted to help my country (and not run away), and I was treated like an animal...

In all the duration of my service, I could see that those mercenaries didn’t do their job properly... On top of that I could see that a lot of supplies were being wasted for no reason... I could see a lot of LEO 1 A5 battle tanks in my unit (around 60) that cost a lot of money... However very few were being used...When I found out the operations costs of my unit, I was shocked... The Greek taxpayers were paying a lot of money and they (mercenaries and officers alike) were fooling around..They were only concerned about their salary (which was by far higher than working in the private sector) and nothing else...This was a luxury that the Greek taxpayers could not afford!! As for readiness of that unit (which was close to the borders with Turkey)? At the end of my service the unit was to be relocated to another campus with other units so the operation of all those units could be improved. The distance between my unit and the new unit was 10Km (around 6 miles). So those tanks had to cover that distance...More than half of them could not do it as they were not maintained properly. The idea that those tanks were supposed to prevent any invasion and counter attack to the enemy was pretty frightening...

I, eventually became friend with one of those mercenaries. He was friendlier than the others. I asked him about his motivations in joining the Greek army. He admitted that he could not find any other job and the money offered was sufficient enough to go through all that hassle. He expected to retire at the age of 43. This was usual as if you served in the army for 25 years you had the right to retire! So guys who joined the army at 18 years old, they could retire at the age of 43 9and happened a lot in the past). I asked him whether he considers that socially fair. He said yes as he was doing a very dangerous job and after all he was providing a very significant service to the Greek public. He was 26 years old... As it was the time of the first Greek bailout and having an idea what would happen, I informed him that he would be very lucky to get even a pension after 40 years of service...He looked at me quite aggressively. I didn’t react. There was not any point. I knew that he would soon realize his mistaken point of view. Recently the old rules were revised and now military stuff have to work for 35 years before they retire...I bet that those rules will be revised again and they will be forced to serve at least 40 years before they retire... Did I also mention that that guy had a mortgage? He could not understand terms in his mortgage about M1, M2, M3 money supply and other terms and he just signed it...He could not even understand the difference between the ECB rate and the Euribor rate..As I knew what they meant, I went through the contract. When I explained to him various terms and conditions, he changed his mood...I could see some cold sweat running on his face as well...He was not much different than the other Greeks...He was not aware of a situation (as he could not understand it) that would have significant effect in his future life...

Eventually my service ended. The last day of my service was one of the happiest of my life! I just wanted so badly to put an end to that nightmare! I left that unit having fulfilled my duty. I did what I had to do for my country. I didn’t say goodbye to most of the mercenaries over there. Some of them wanted to say goodbye to me. I didn’t bother to talk to them. They were pieces of sh.t and they were not worth anything. They will remain pieces of s..t for the rest of their lives...To my mind they were traitors... I left driving my car. Just a few miles away, one of the unit’s officers in charge of one track carrying equipment spotted me. He raised his hand to greet me and say goodbye. I responded...I raised my middle finger towards him!!! He was shocked, but he could not do anything...I was not a soldier anymore and he had no authority on me. It was one of the most exciting moments of my life! On Sept 1st 2010 I came back to London. I have not been to Greece since that day. I am planning some holidays to Greece very soon. But I was informed that the general mood has changed. In fact, a lot of things have changed!!! Nothing is the same any more...

I am very sorry about this very long post but I wanted to share with you some of my experiences. I think that those facts provide hindsight about the situation in Greece and hold various lessons for all of us. I kept myself away from speaking badly about my country and various fellow Greeks. But I cannot any more. I had enough! Crimes have been committed against the Greek public and nobody has ever paid for them. Now, they are sending the bill to the taxpayers, advocating that everybody should contribute to save the country. However, they didn’t mention that it is not the taxpayers’ fault rather than theirs!!! They are a lot of things that need to be changed in order Greece to get into the right track again. First of all the mentality of the Greeks needs to be changed. And this is not easy... Please, do not, for a single moment, assume that I am against my country or the rest of the Greeks. I was, am and will remain a Patriot that would do anything for his country! My hurt cries every day about what happens (and will eventually happen) to Greece which affects my family and friends as well. It is not pleasant at all.

I hope my post had been helpful!

Evangelos
 
Very similar things happened here in the markets and the military.................
 
What some may not know is that the Greeks are selling off their assets cheaply. One of those assets is Piraeus, the commercial harbour of Athens.

This port has been bought by the Chinese so that their goods can go directly into Europe.

About time the Greeks got a grip on their problems imho. I would like to start the bidding on a nice Greek island - say $10 just for starters ?

:)


Sir, with all due respect, this information is incorrect.

The Port was not sold to the Chinese. In 2009 Cosco won a 35 years concession to run operations at Pier no 2 and undertook to build and maintain a third one. It was more a "lease" rather than sale. They have to pay some money for those services as well. So basically, the deal was: o.k. use exclusively Pier 2, build another one to use exclusively as well as paying us rent for 35 years and then all those Piers come to our possession again. So the "freehold" of all those Piers remain to the Greek Government. The exclusive use of Pier 1 remains to the Greek Government.

Please refer to:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-fight-sales-of-government-port-holdings.html

This is the table with the major share holders.

http://www.capital.gr/xa/insiders.asp?s=%CF%CB%D0

The word "ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟ ΔΗΜΟΣΙΟ" stands for Greek Government. They possess 74,50 % of the Port Authority of Piraeus, However, now they want to sell it alongside with the Port Authority in my city (Thessaloniki).

The funniest thing was the argument between the politicians. The estimated cash flows for the entire lifetime of that deal was around 2 billion Euros. However the Net Present value was around 250 millions Euros. The Finance Minister Mr Papathanasiou and the Shadow Finance Minister from the opposition Party(and Finance Minister until some days ago) Mr Papaconstantinou were arguing whether the deal was good or not! The former was saying that the total cash flows were nearly 2 billions Euros and the latter was saying that the NPV was only 250 millions and that this was a sell off. They were arguing on TV Panels and I could not believe it!! They were talking about the same thing. Because the futures cash flows were around 2 billions Euros but the NPV was indeed 250 millions! They could not understand that they were talking about the same thing! I was knocking my head against the wall! A second year Economics or Finance student should know that principle and they seemed to either not being aware of that or deliberately ignoring it. That time I was convinced that they were really DANGEROUS!!!

With regards to the island or any other potential investment in Greece,please refer to my previous post and read the example about Emporiki Bank. Before you grab a "bargain", you should give it a second thought before investing in Greece.

Just to let you know...In 2007 the only 2 European countries that didn't have land registry were Greece and Albania. In 2007 the land registry was introduced to Greece. Until now the project is not completed and there are many disputes about the ownership of many properties. So you could be buying something which later on will be disputed...

Did I also mention about the taxes? Whenever the Government needs any money imposes heavy taxes. So they did now.So landlords in Greece have to pay additional taxes as my parents have for the property they live in. The tax could be any amount (as far they get the money they want). So you could be buying an island for 10 Dollars but you could be facing a one -off tax of 100,000...Just as much as they need..And if you don't pay you will face severe consequences. My father had to pay a tax of 300 Euros and a letter should have given us notice. We never received that letter..The authorities didn't bother to double check..So they went to a county court and for the amount of 300 Euros ordered foreclosure of our house !!!(they have the right even for 1 Euro). When we received notice of the foreclosure we were astonished...Anyway we went to pay the tax. Because the case went to court we had to pay 2, 000 Euros in total...So, you can get into real trouble..

My advice as a Greek person?? Stay well clear of any investment in Greece unless you know the "right" persons...This is the only way in Greece...

Evangelos
 
Sir, with all due respect, this information is incorrect.

The Port was not sold to the Chinese. In 2009 Cosco won a 35 years concession to run operations at Pier no 2 and undertook to build and maintain a third one. It was more a "lease" rather than sale. They have to pay some money for those services as well. So basically, the deal was: o.k. use exclusively Pier 2, build another one to use exclusively as well as paying us rent for 35 years and then all those Piers come to our possession again. So the "freehold" of all those Piers remain to the Greek Government. The exclusive use of Pier 1 remains to the Greek Government.

Please refer to:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-fight-sales-of-government-port-holdings.html

This is the table with the major share holders.

http://www.capital.gr/xa/insiders.asp?s=%CF%CB%D0

The word "ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟ ΔΗΜΟΣΙΟ" stands for Greek Government. They possess 74,50 % of the Port Authority of Piraeus, However, now they want to sell it alongside with the Port Authority in my city (Thessaloniki).

The funniest thing was the argument between the politicians. The estimated cash flows for the entire lifetime of that deal was around 2 billion Euros. However the Net Present value was around 250 millions Euros. The Finance Minister Mr Papathanasiou and the Shadow Finance Minister from the opposition Party(and Finance Minister until some days ago) Mr Papaconstantinou were arguing whether the deal was good or not! The former was saying that the total cash flows were nearly 2 billions Euros and the latter was saying that the NPV was only 250 millions and that this was a sell off. They were arguing on TV Panels and I could not believe it!! They were talking about the same thing. Because the futures cash flows were around 2 billions Euros but the NPV was indeed 250 millions! They could not understand that they were talking about the same thing! I was knocking my head against the wall! A second year Economics or Finance student should know that principle and they seemed to either not being aware of that or deliberately ignoring it. That time I was convinced that they were really DANGEROUS!!!

With regards to the island or any other potential investment in Greece,please refer to my previous post and read the example about Emporiki Bank. Before you grab a "bargain", you should give it a second thought before investing in Greece.

Just to let you know...In 2007 the only 2 European countries that didn't have land registry were Greece and Albania. In 2007 the land registry was introduced to Greece. Until now the project is not completed and there are many disputes about the ownership of many properties. So you could be buying something which later on will be disputed...

Did I also mention about the taxes? Whenever the Government needs any money imposes heavy taxes. So they did now.So landlords in Greece have to pay additional taxes as my parents have for the property they live in. The tax could be any amount (as far they get the money they want). So you could be buying an island for 10 Dollars but you could be facing a one -off tax of 100,000...Just as much as they need..And if you don't pay you will face severe consequences. My father had to pay a tax of 300 Euros and a letter should have given us notice. We never received that letter..The authorities didn't bother to double check..So they went to a county court and for the amount of 300 Euros ordered foreclosure of our house !!!(they have the right even for 1 Euro). When we received notice of the foreclosure we were astonished...Anyway we went to pay the tax. Because the case went to court we had to pay 2, 000 Euros in total...So, you can get into real trouble..

My advice as a Greek person?? Stay well clear of any investment in Greece unless you know the "right" persons...This is the only way in Greece...

Evangelos

They do that here as well...........They don't send a tax notice for example $200.00...........and because you pay it late, then penalties and interest make it about $1000.00........That is an old trick........No private company is allowed to charge as much interest and penalties here as the government does.............And if you dispute it in court then forget what they charge you for court costs if you lose..............It is like dealing with the mafia.............And of course you are going to lose..............the game is rigged...............
 
They do that here as well...........They don't send a tax notice for example $200.00...........and because you pay it late, then penalties and interest make it about $1000.00........That is an old trick........No private company is allowed to charge as much interest and penalties here as the government does.............And if you dispute it in court then forget what they charge you for court costs if you lose..............It is like dealing with the mafia.............And of course you are going to lose..............the game is rigged...............

I was sent a tax increase on the house I lived in on a nice lake for the last 10 years for a 35% increase in 1 year..........I called the county tax assesors office to complain because clearly property prices here in the US were going down...........His response to me was, and I quote......... "You can dispute this if you want to, but I will tell you in advance that every dispute we have had has resulted in us raising you property tax even more." Now that pi##ed me of severely, so I sold that house and move to another county....................
 
Can anyone tell me how the EU as a whole gained any benefit out of letting Greece join? I read an article about Sachs helping fudge the numbers to meet entry criteria so I assumed it was poorly drafted legislature but only now am I seeing the power of politics at work.


I can tell you how some countries have benefited from letting Greece join the EU. Please refer to one of my previous posts. As mentioned there I joined the Greek Armoured Corps. At my unit there were around 60+ LEO 1 A5. 60+ times 20 million Euros each of it, you can see that this is quite a very respectful amount...I have to tell you that there were many units close to mine that had more than 60 of those tanks. Some other units had the more advanced LEO 2 which were 2.5 times more expensive..Greece was and remains one the most respectful clients of those German tanks.We have been spending billions and billions of Euros for Military Equipment. In 1980's we were the 4th country in the rankings of the countries spending money for military equipment (after U.S. , Israel and Turkey) How this relates??

Well, the fact that we have been buying German tanks was not that random. It was more like an act of good will to our European ally. We could also buy the M1 or M2 American battle tanks but 95% of our units were equipped only with German Tanks. Another example is the submarine "Papanikolis". In 2004 or 2005 we bought 4 submarines from a German harbor. These were the most technologically advanced submarines and of course we could not buy them form anybody else rather than our allies...In 2008 or early 2009 (I don't recall the exact year) the aforementioned submarine was received by the Greek Government. It costed 500 million Euros..The think was that it was leaning towards one direction (sic!!!!). The whole Greek public was disguised and immediately the submarine was sent back to be repaired. In some meetings that the Greek Prime Minister had with Angela Merkel that issue was discussed. The Germans were not that happy anymore.. Eventually, it was returned but the issue remained. The operational readiness was under question..The Greek Government had not signed at that moment the approval for that payment. Angela Merkel pointed this fact to the Greek government. They replied that those deficiencies have to be rectified before the accept the submarine and pay for it.

In 2010, days before we got the approval for the first bailout, the (new) Greek Government signed the acceptance of that submarine. The German Government was very pleased about that fact. Later on, they participated in the Greek bailout...In Nov 2010 that submarine participated in an international operation in the seas close to Scandinavia. When it returned that defective side of the submarine was severely damaged. The submarine remained out of operations for 2 months in order to be repaired...

Allegations were made that those enormous military equipment supplies were not that random. One of the Defense Ministers of the Party that had ruled Greece from 1993 until 2004 was spotted (Akis Tsochatzopoulos). In 2006 he got married to a much younger lady (she was hot as well!!). He held a ceremony in Paris. Having seen those pictures, me thinks that many Kings and Princes would be very jealous of the ceremony's luxury. The previous year it was revealed that Mr Akis Tsochatzopoulos was in possession of 30+ properties... Allegations were made that he held a lot of off-shore accounts with very significant amounts of money in there. The thing was that he didn't have any other profession rather than being a law maker. His salary was not more than 4,000- 5,000Euros and the amounts in his accounts and the properties owned were multiple figure of his salary. He could not explain this fact. However, there were not hard evidences or any documents that could prove anything...He didn't face any consequences... Now the Greek citizens have to pay for those supplies as they were being placed with borrowed money. Again the taxpayers have to pay for somebody's else faults!!!

From 2002 (when we joined Euro ) until 2009 our imports had skyrocketed. There was one country that had benefited the most from our imports. I think you can imagine which country I am referring to. The strong currency meant that those imports were much more affordable as opposed to the time period we had Greek Drachmas...


I hope that I have given you a possible answer..However bear in mind that they are plenty of ways that the EU can benefit from Greece. I can confidently say that because of our two Ports goods from Asia and Africa can be imported to the EU in a much more efficient (and less costly ) way. I can confidently say that Greece has around 2,000 islands..Most of them are small ones that are pure rocks, so no one lives there. It is estimated that if those islands are used in order to build sun panels to adsorb the sunshine, it could generate 20% of the whole EU electricity's requirements... I can tell you that they are official reports that a lot of gold and uranium mines are existent in the region that I used to live..The Aegean sea if also full of oil...But the exploitation of those resources is constantly being blocked by Greek Unions and environmentalists... However, I have to admit that those projects require something more. HARD work and WILL. I am not sure whether the Greek Government has any of those attributes...

P.S.: I had the pleasure to shoot with a battle tank (LEO1A5) (as part of a simulation of a war) . I also fired against a "possible" target. An old and unused battle tank. The ammunition used was APFSDS (google it). Its starting speed was 2 Km/esc!!!!! And when a tank shoots, it DOES move! The whole experience was very exciting!!(y)(y). I would kill to get that experience again...
 
The things you say are very indicative of the United States as well.....................They are all around against the working class,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
I worked in Greece for a few years so here's a couple of example of where the Greek worries comes from:

Collective employment agreements:
Under the old regulations, any employer who wanted to fire an employee after I think 12 years of employment had to give 48 months notice.

Very True! Now this regulations are not valid any more...Plenty of firms are now sucking employees. The best man of my father was working at Roche for 22 years. He was recently fired.One month notice and 3 salaries as a compensation...He has two children and with unemployment that high he cannot find any other job. He is entitled to Job seeker's allowance only...This benefit is for 12 months only...If you are still unemployed you won't get anything from the state...

Public Sector:
There used to be a bonus for public sector workers who got to work on time
There used to be a bonus for public sector workers who had to use elevators in the course of their working day

Those bonuses were not paid to all public sector workers...They were meant for the most privileged....The ones that worked for the Finance Ministry or the Tax Authority.. My father was (he now retired) the chief Engineer and the Head of the Maintenance at the National Railway Corporation (you know its name, don't you...) for all Northern Greece. He was responsible for the maintenance of the railway network for the regions of Makedonia and Thrace (you now how big they are don't you). That meant that if there was any accident or deficiency in the Network he had to take care of it. That included weekends, bank holidays or any other moment (midnight). He would get bonuses for working on those days and bonuses on performance,etc. But he never got any of those aforementioned bonuses...Again the most privileged were enjoying benefits that now all citizens have to pay for.


Salary structure:
14 salaries in public and private sector. Public sector workers employed in the house of representatives get 16 salaries

Very True! However , you didn't mention the level of the salary. The minimum wage in Greece is 700( actually it is less-690) Euros...So total income for one year is 9,800 Euros... Now a lot could argue that very few get the minimum salary. It is quite the opposite..Very few get more money than that any more.Especially the young population. One of my friends and student mate (He studied Economics) found a job at a large company supplying groceries to various stores...They required someone with knowledge of Economics and Logistics (i.e. a graduate) to take care of the orders and coordinate them..He works 10 to 12 hours a day from Sunday to Thursday.His monthly salary is 800 (Net)Euros..11,200 Euros p.a. GREAT!!!! As you also know there is not any other bonus for employees in the private sector unless you work for a very prestigious company... My father having served 35 years before retiring he was getting 1,850 Euros (Net) per month..Not bad but not that good after 35 years and being the Head of the Maintenance... Some months ago those 2 extra salaries (Christmas and Easter "gifts" as you know...) were cut for all employees and pensioners in the public sector. My father included....As for the ones employed at the house of representatives...You forgot to mention that any Greek law maker having been elected as a law maker twice (that meant serve from 6 to 8 years), was entitled to FULL pension for the rest of his/her life... Again, the most privileged were entitled to many outrageous benefits...


Corruption:
An ex minister apparently had 185 million Euro stashed in various bank accounts. Nothing will happen as under the Greek constitution, politicians are immune from prosecution.


Very True!!! I could not have stated that any better...However you forgot to mention who is paying the bill now...Not that Minister for sure!!! He has that money in off-shore accounts where nobody can touch it.... And I know who you are talking about...;);):cool:
 
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