Futures broker - any recommendations?

[Silent.Trader]

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Most brokers in the UK have to abide by rules set by FSA.
These rules are very strict, they can lose license if rules are broken.
One of the rules is! > the broker must always act in the best interest of the customer first and NOT the company interests. In the USA it seems the rules are the other way around
Example if the customer was in hospital for any reason accident or operation etc etc and could not possibly know whats happenning with the position the brokers would have phoned him about the problem if there was NO reply and time was a major factor to position?! They would have acted to close position to close and the client would NOT have suffered a loss at all.
He had the wrong broker its that simple!! I would NOT use IB for derivatives.

I think that this has nothing to do with acting in the best interest of the customer. How does the broker know what is the best interest of the customer? If ITM options were let expire worthless customers will complain about that and you would probably claim overhere that the broker did not act in the best interest of the customer. And close the position? When and how should that be done? No matter how they choose to do it there will be some-one complaining because it's not in there best interest.

I think IB has done it the best way they can. They've set clear rules and stick to it. It's clear and imho clearity is in the best interest of the customer. Customers may prefer a different set of rules, if so, they're free to choose another broker. If this customer is so stupid not to inform himself its not the fault of IB, it's the personal responsibility of this particular customer.

grtnx
Wilco

 

[Baruch]

I don't use Saxo, but personally it's site looks good really.

Using a broker is more in the credit risk aspect. Anyway I don't put everything in one account with any one broker, so it doesn't really matter even if I had an account with Saxo.

I would be concerned if any of my counterparties give me bad debt problems, but that's a risk one takes after one has decided to take on the risk of trading with that counterparty.

All brokers (not bookmakers) in EU have a common insurance for customers for the first 30.000 euro. So the risk is very small... :cheesy:

 

[SOCRATES]

All brokers (not bookmakers) in EU have a common insurance for customers for the first 30.000 euro. So the risk is very small... :cheesy:

The risk is very small, but the risk is always present. This is because the number of inefficient traders vastly outnumbers the number of efficient traders.

 

[Anonymous]

If all brokers (not bookmakers) in EU have a common insurance for customers for the first 30 euro, it is only common sense that a customer should not deposit more than 30 euro with any broker in the EU.

 

[Baruch]

If all brokers (not bookmakers) in EU have a common insurance for customers for the first 30 euro, it is only common sense that a customer should not deposit more than 30 euro with any broker in the EU.

It's 30.000 euro, not 30 euro. :cheesy: Saxo bank is a Danish bank, and we also has a national customer protection. So you will always get your money back, if Saxo or another bank goes broke.

 

[bulldozer]

I think that this has nothing to do with acting in the best interest of the customer. How does the broker know what is the best interest of the customer? If ITM options were let expire worthless customers will complain about that and you would probably claim overhere that the broker did not act in the best interest of the customer. And close the position? When and how should that be done? No matter how they choose to do it there will be some-one complaining because it's not in there best interest.

I think IB has done it the best way they can. They've set clear rules and stick to it. It's clear and imho clearity is in the best interest of the customer. Customers may prefer a different set of rules, if so, they're free to choose another broker. If this customer is so stupid not to inform himself its not the fault of IB, it's the personal responsibility of this particular customer.

grtnx
Wilco

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Lets say i had the same positions as our friend [dev 17] and i got killed in a road crash a few days before expiry of the options contracts and the UK brokers did the same as IB, what do you think would happen? Do you think my wife or my kids have a case? ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL UK BROKERS TO ACT IN CLIENTS BEST INTEREST!!! WHETHER THE CLIENTS IS DEAD OR ALIVE AND IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOUR ON HIGH OR LOW COMMISSIONS. THE RULES IN THE UK ARE BY FAR IN FAVOUR OF THE CLIENT AND NOT THE BROKER.
Thats why i said in my past posts its of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANT to have the right broker under the best country rules! and UK rules and with the FSA WATCHDOG ACTING IN YOUR FAVOUR!! IS THE BEST!! Wake UP you guy's out there Dont trade until you have the right foundations in place first.!!!!

Just look at the ENRON, WORLD COM ,FRREDIE MACK FANNIE MAE FIASCOS UNDER THE FSA RULES OF THE USA :cheesy: To put it simply its CRA P !!!!!

i WOULD LIKE TO ADD ONE VERY IMPORTANT POINT. I THINK SOME USA BROKERS RULES WOULD NOT BE APPROVED BY THE UK FSA. ALL UK BROKERS RULES HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE FSA BEFORE THEY ARE ISSUED A LISENCE!! I CHALLENGE ANY BODY TO PROVE ME WRONG ON THIS.

Bull

 

[def]

Since you seem to imply UK brokers are superior to the rest of the crowd, I'll post this from the IB site: Interactive Brokers (U.K.) Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. FSA register entry number 208159 (http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/). (http://www.interactivebrokers.co.uk)

You continue to miss a most important fact. The OCC (that is the option clearing house) will AUTOMATICALLY exercise options that are 25 cents in the money. The option in question was in the money and thus the option was automatically exercised by the OCC according the rules and regulations they created with the best interests of retail client in mind. The only choice a broker could make would be to LAPSE an option that is > 25 cents in the money. That could be argued is not in the client's best interest. In fact it has, the OCC rule used to be 75 cents.

 

[bulldozer]

Since you seem to imply UK brokers are superior to the rest of the crowd, I'll post this from the IB site: Interactive Brokers (U.K.) Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. FSA register entry number 208159 (http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/). (http://www.interactivebrokers.co.uk)

You continue to miss a most important fact. The OCC (that is the option clearing house) will AUTOMATICALLY exercise options that are 25 cents in the money. The option in question was in the money and thus the option was automatically exercised by the OCC according the rules and regulations they created with the best interests of retail client in mind. The only choice a broker could make would be to LAPSE an option that is > 25 cents in the money. That could be argued is not in the client's best interest. In fact it has, the OCC rule used to be 75 cents.

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Mr def,
You are missing one GOOD point:!
If IB claim they are the best brokers in the US or the world?! I think the client [dev 17] has MORE than 50/50 chance in recieving compensation from IB! Because theire system,computers and staff FAILED to LIQUIDATE THE POSITION IN THE FIRST 3 MINUTES ON MONDAYS OPENING! IB INFACT LIQUIDATED THE POSITION OVER ONE HOUR LATER AND GOOG DROPPED EVEN LOWER FROM THE OPENING! What if Goog dropped over 50 % he would lose his house would he not? and probably cause him a heart attack too.
PLZ DONT TELL US ITS THE CLIENTS FAULT!!!! HE GOT LIQUIDATED MUCH LATER FROM THE OPENNING TIME. PLZ EXPLAIN THIS PROBLEM AS IM SURE THERE ARE MANY WHO WOULD LIKE TO READ YOUR REPLY!!
Can someone please make contact with developer 17 and tell him to read my posts. he should get a lawyer who has experience in dealing with brokers or experience in financial laws.
A strong letter from one of these lawyers or from a lawyer with a no win no fee policy would be very effective. Plz tell the guy I'm willing to contribute $500 to a fund to fight the case and im sure others will contribute too.

Bull

 

[Silent.Trader]

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Lets say i had the same positions as our friend [dev 17] and i got killed in a road crash a few days before expiry of the options contracts and the UK brokers did the same as IB, what do you think would happen? Do you think my wife or my kids have a case? ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL UK BROKERS TO ACT IN CLIENTS BEST INTEREST!!! WHETHER THE CLIENTS IS DEAD OR ALIVE AND IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOUR ON HIGH OR LOW COMMISSIONS. THE RULES IN THE UK ARE BY FAR IN FAVOUR OF THE CLIENT AND NOT THE BROKER.
Thats why i said in my past posts its of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANT to have the right broker under the best country rules! and UK rules and with the FSA WATCHDOG ACTING IN YOUR FAVOUR!! IS THE BEST!! Wake UP you guy's out there Dont trade until you have the right foundations in place first.!!!!

Just look at the ENRON, WORLD COM ,FRREDIE MACK FANNIE MAE FIASCOS UNDER THE FSA RULES OF THE USA :cheesy: To put it simply its CRA P !!!!!

i WOULD LIKE TO ADD ONE VERY IMPORTANT POINT. I THINK SOME USA BROKERS RULES WOULD NOT BE APPROVED BY THE UK FSA. ALL UK BROKERS RULES HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE FSA BEFORE THEY ARE ISSUED A LISENCE!! I CHALLENGE ANY BODY TO PROVE ME WRONG ON THIS.

Bull

Bull, you don't have to SCREAM! We can read you anyway.

First of all, you fail to attack my reasoning. You only tell things have not been in the best interest of the customer in this particular case. You fail however to tell how the broker knows in advance what is in the best interest of the customer. What set of rules should a broker apply according to you? If a broker decides ad hoc what to do, that would only create confusion with the customer and is definately not in the customers best interest. So imho a set of rules should be in place. What should these rules look like according to you?

It's still unclear to me why the broker should have traded the client account prior to violation of the margin rules. I don't recall to have read where the GOOG options were traded. If this was tthe US, and the options were excercised due to OCC regulations as I understand from Def, where did the broker go wrong? The broker was not involved in this!

Basicly you plead that the broker trades the customer account, what has been done due to margin violation. If you want the broker to trade the customer account before that, then explain when and why? Why should the broker trade the options? What if it were not options but futures or stock (on margin) and the stock tanked? Should the broker trade then too?

According to my information the set of rules that IB applies is clear. This is in the best interest of the customer. If you think their rules are no good, pls provide us with a set of rules that is better in the interest of the customer. Pls provide an alternative! (you refuse to name a better broker)

With respect to ending up in the hospital or dead, how is the broker to know? How should they decide when and what to trade?

grtnx
Wilco

 

[bulldozer]

Bull, you don't have to SCREAM! We can read you anyway.

First of all, you fail to attack my reasoning. You only tell things have not been in the best interest of the customer in this particular case. You fail however to tell how the broker knows in advance what is in the best interest of the customer. What set of rules should a broker apply according to you? If a broker decides ad hoc what to do, that would only create confusion with the customer and is definately not in the customers best interest. So imho a set of rules should be in place. What should these rules look like according to you?

It's still unclear to me why the broker should have traded the client account prior to violation of the margin rules. I don't recall to have read where the GOOG options were traded. If this was tthe US, and the options were excercised due to OCC regulations as I understand from Def, where did the broker go wrong? The broker was not involved in this!

Basicly you plead that the broker trades the customer account, what has been done due to margin violation. If you want the broker to trade the customer account before that, then explain when and why? Why should the broker trade the options? What if it were not options but futures or stock (on margin) and the stock tanked? Should the broker trade then too?

According to my information the set of rules that IB applies is clear. This is in the best interest of the customer. If you think their rules are no good, pls provide us with a set of rules that is better in the interest of the customer. Pls provide an alternative! (you refuse to name a better broker)

With respect to ending up in the hospital or dead, how is the broker to know? How should they decide when and what to trade?

grtnx
Wilco

===========================================================

So if you can read me why is it you cant seem to understand what I'm saying?
If your an option writer you would understand what I'm saying!
Look at post 46 by Mr Def [IB rep] He gives the rules used by IB for their clients. Now read those rules and see what is in the interest of the client and what is not.
Their rules does NOT allow you to trade out of trade "A" which is on margin call and converted to trade "B" that is not on margin call, without first settling the margin call!! This is not in the best interest to the client!
There are other rules that most option writers do not like, so they move out from IB to another broker with better rules and more suited for his type of trades.
Take those set of rules [post 46] and show them to UK brokers and ask them what they think of those rules? Then take the UK brokers rules and read them. You will then see a clearer picture of what I'm saying

Mr def has admitted that IB do NOT give a full service. Why not pay the extra $ or 2 and get a broker that gives you full service? A full service has to be better than HALF service is it not?

IB should have sold Goog shares [for dev17] at the opening of mondays price which turns out was higher than IB sold them after 9.00 am! IB must be held accountable for the delay in selling the stock. Its that simple! they did not act in the clients best interest by selling those share over one hour late from the opening. They have no argument!
It would be interesting to hear what Mr Def has to say on the delay? I hope he's not going to say its the clients fault?

 

[nine]

Bull ... dozer,

You originally claimed to have "looked at ib" and attacked their offerings.
You assured us you were not a customer and would never become one.
Now you say you have become a customer.
You make claims that others find false and frequently make little sense.

You act more like an ex-employee who got fired and isn't all that happy about it.

So, why the hard on for IB?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
Lets say i had the same positions as our friend [dev 17] and i got killed in a road crash a few days before expiry of the options contracts . . .

Then without proof of probate, the broker should let the positions expire and in fact, probably would do since to take any action would open up a legal can of worms (say they could have closed out more profitably at a later time) and certainly jepordise their FSA status.

 

[Silent.Trader]

===========================================================

So if you can read me why is it you cant seem to understand what I'm saying?
If your an option writer you would understand what I'm saying!
Look at post 46 by Mr Def [IB rep] He gives the rules used by IB for their clients. Now read those rules and see what is in the interest of the client and what is not.
Their rules does NOT allow you to trade out of trade "A" which is on margin call and converted to trade "B" that is not on margin call, without first settling the margin call!! This is not in the best interest to the client!
There are other rules that most option writers do not like, so they move out from IB to another broker with better rules and more suited for his type of trades.
Take those set of rules [post 46] and show them to UK brokers and ask them what they think of those rules? Then take the UK brokers rules and read them. You will then see a clearer picture of what I'm saying

Mr def has admitted that IB do NOT give a full service. Why not pay the extra $ or 2 and get a broker that gives you full service? A full service has to be better than HALF service is it not?

IB should have sold Goog shares [for dev17] at the opening of mondays price which turns out was higher than IB sold them after 9.00 am! IB must be held accountable for the delay in selling the stock. Its that simple! they did not act in the clients best interest by selling those share over one hour late from the opening. They have no argument!
It would be interesting to hear what Mr Def has to say on the delay? I hope he's not going to say its the clients fault?

It's probably me, but I really don't understand your point A is on margin call B is not on margin call? What the hell are you talking about? It's not products that are on margin call, margin is calculated for the entire portfolio! Too be honest i don't read such a thing in posting 46. If you insist that is what Def wrote, pls quote his exect words.

Further I think this point is irrelevant for the example you're bashing IB for. At one hand you plead the broker does trade the customer account, but fail to define the exact (workable) conditions the broker should do so. On the other hand you complain that the broker did trade the customer account. I really don't understand your point.

Then I wonder why GOOG should be traded on open? I tend to say the margin call is non-existent untill the first lower price of goog is made. So the trade should be done after the opening. As IB claims that they monitor margin real time you may plead that they should have reacted faster,. I don't know how pricies went that day and don't feel like searching for the data. Liquidating due to a margin call within an hour sounds fair enough to me. But I agree that considering their statements you may expect a faster reaction.

grtnx
Wilco

 

[bulldozer]

Bull ... dozer,

You originally claimed to have "looked at ib" and attacked their offerings.
You assured us you were not a customer and would never become one.
Now you say you have become a customer.
You make claims that others find false and frequently make little sense.

You act more like an ex-employee who got fired and isn't all that happy about it.

So, why the hard on for IB?

=================================================================
I was never a client of IB and i dont intend to become a client in the futr.
I was never employed by them either.
I dont know where you find this info.

Simple question: Ib liquidated the positions over one hour from mondays opening price , why the delay? Its not the clients fault their system was down or thier staff are monkeys. The client does not employ or chose IB's staff.
What if he had more than 16 contracts and all were delayed by that length of time, who should be accountable for the loss between the opening price and the close out price? its a very simple question.
If you go to the restaurant and order a meal you expect the full service dont you? You dont need to bring your own chair and drinks!? All I'm saying is, that your better off going for a broker that provides a FULL service in derivatives than one who does't.
Look at the rules first before becoming a client! if rules are not to your likeing find one that is to your likeing.
I'm not asking you to leave IB!! I'm showing the other members that you are not offered the full service for your money [commission paid] For an extra $ or 2 you can get the full service! I'm basicly telling the members and YOU included!! you have another choice.!
I will not tell you which broker i use in the UK because you will then accuse me of having a motive.
One more last thing Ive asked you not to post to me, as i dont want to have any dialogue with you. I hope i make myself clear? I'm just replying to your accusations about me, thats the main reason i did this post.
bye bye!

Bull...dozer

 

[bulldozer]

Then without proof of probate, the broker should let the positions expire and in fact, probably would do since to take any action would open up a legal can of worms (say they could have closed out more profitably at a later time) and certainly jepordise their FSA status.

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Again your missing the point!! do i need to SCREAM to get thru to your head?

IB's rule are :> WE WILL LIQUIDATE POSITION IF THERE IS UNSUFFECIENT CASH IN ACCOUNT TO MEET MARGIN CALLS OR LOSSES!!!!
Now IB exercised their right to liquidate position whether the client is dead/alive or in hospital. They did not make contact! because its NOT a service they provide.
WHY DID THEY TAKE SO BLOODY LONG TO LIQUIDATE POSITION FROM MONDAYS OPENING PRICE????
The client had NO decision in the matter! and even if he had told them to hold the stock for just one minute longer in the hope it would rise? THEY WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN HIM THAT CHOICE AS ITS AGAINST THEIR RULES!! THIER RULES ARE WE LIQUIDATE THE MOMEMT POSITIONS SHOW LOSS OR GO ON MARGIN CALL AND CLIENT HAS UNSUFFIECIENT FUNDS IN ACCOUNT TO MEET THESE PROBLEMS [margin calls or losses]


Read the clients own statement about the decision of IB to close position LATE on page 16 click below plz.


http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=51251&perpage=6&pagenumber=16


http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=51251

Bull

 

[peto]

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WHY DID THEY TAKE SO BLOODY LONG TO LIQUIDATE POSITION FROM MONDAYS OPENING PRICE????



Bull

Hey bull

They liquidated at 9.40am EST (that's only 10 minutes after opening).

Some people need a "full service broker" to help them manage their positions, particularly in respect of problems like the one quoted above. They may also appreciate a bit of advice in other areas.

Other people prefer to manage their own affairs and know enough about the pitfalls, and the regulations of the exchanges and their broker, to be able to operate like this successfully. In return they benefit from reduced commissions. It is very much a matter of choice and there is clearly a market for both types of broker.

In my own trading I am scalping just a few points with most trades, so commissions are a major expense, indeed if I were to pay significantly more than discount broker fees I would be unable to trade my system profitably.

pete

 

[def]

=================================================================

IB's rule are :> WE WILL LIQUIDATE POSITION IF THERE IS UNSUFFECIENT CASH IN ACCOUNT TO MEET MARGIN CALLS OR LOSSES!!!!

WHY DID THEY TAKE SO BLOODY LONG TO LIQUIDATE POSITION FROM MONDAYS OPENING PRICE????

The client had NO decision in the matter! and even if he had told them to hold the stock for just one minute longer in the hope it would rise? THEY WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN HIM THAT CHOICE AS ITS AGAINST THEIR RULES!! THIER RULES ARE WE LIQUIDATE THE MOMEMT POSITIONS SHOW LOSS OR GO ON MARGIN CALL AND CLIENT HAS UNSUFFIECIENT FUNDS IN ACCOUNT TO MEET THESE PROBLEMS [margin calls or losses]


Bull

First, if you are going to quote our policies, try cut and paste from our site as your statement is not only grammatically incorrect, it is inaccurate. IB does not liquidate because of losses.

Second, after hours trading does not often provide tight and liquid markets. Nevertheless, under most scenarios there is nothing to prevent a client from controlling his or her own liquidation when their account goes into a margin deficit.

Third, show me where it states IB will liquidate the moment positions show a loss or go on margin call? - wrong again

Please try to get your facts straight when complaining about the policies of a broker you never used.

You want full service, that is fine. Others care more about the quality and speed of their executions.

 

[bulldozer]

Hey bull

They liquidated at 9.40am EST (that's only 10 minutes after opening).

Some people need a "full service broker" to help them manage their positions, particularly in respect of problems like the one quoted above. They may also appreciate a bit of advice in other areas.

Other people prefer to manage their own affairs and know enough about the pitfalls, and the regulations of the exchanges and their broker, to be able to operate like this successfully. In return they benefit from reduced commissions. It is very much a matter of choice and there is clearly a market for both types of broker.

In my own trading I am scalping just a few points with most trades, so commissions are a major expense, indeed if I were to pay significantly more than discount broker fees I would be unable to trade my system profitably.

pete

================================================================
SO 10 MINUTES DELAY IS OK ?
We are talking about DERIVATIVES ON OPTIONS WITH MANY CONTRACTS NOT SPRD-BTTG AND SCALPING A FEW POINTS! with stop loss for a few dollars profit.
If i was the client i would SUE for every SECOND delay! I'll be sueing for 600+ seconds IB failled with their high tech systems, computers and staff. IB have no argument! A 1-10 cents move is crucial to options! Deadly!!

You mentioned savings on commissions is of paramount importance for clients.
Did you know that in options whether the premium recieved/paid on each contract is £10 or £10,000 the commissions is still under £5? So please dont come with all that CRAP about savings on commissions!
Does IB provide a full service and would they been able to contact the client on friday to say the position has gone ATM / ITM or that has moved to a different DELTA and that its close to expiry?
The UK broker would have given all of that service for LESS than £5 commission! And your not obliged to use the full service! but its there and they will make contact!!
I'm a market maker on footsie index calls and puts. I am able to give you a price for any strike upto dec07and take money off you if you want to buy calls or puts.
So please DONT make CRAP statements on commisions savings is of paramount important to option traders.
Plz think b4 you post to me next time. You may be able to fool the majority but dont count me in that number! :idea:

Where has yur mate gone? [Mr Def]

Bull

 

[bulldozer]

Mr Def,
Where is your reply to the question on the 600 + SECONDS DELAY to close position? AND WHY WAS POSITION CLOSED?????????? PLZ REPLY! and what can you possibly say if it was 100 + contracts and not just 16?

IB Rules you put in post 46 page 5 on this forum click below:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=15743&page=5&pp=10

 

[def]

Bull,
if you took the time to read the policy on IB's web site, you'd perhaps understand things better. The high tech system did not fail and the liquidation went according to procedure.

$4 in commission doesn't make a difference for a high volume trader, you're kidding me. I'll agree though the 1-10 cents is crucial and you'll get much better fills using an electronic broker.

you now claim you're a market maker in options but earlier you state that you place your orders via the phone via your full service broker. sure, sure you are.