Double Top and Double Bottom

It can go anywhere and the position that the retail trader takes has to be one of two---right or wrong. So if he is lucky enough to have entered in the direction that GS & Co have decided to trade. Then he is right.

Pivots are only understood in hindsight.
While I agree in principle with your first comment splitlink - price can go anywhere - the reality is there are probabilities associated with each of its potential destination levels. bredin makes a good point rather obliquely in that it can be often more useful to know where price is less likely to go. If you take a look at the prices of the box option spreads provided by some brokers you can get a empirical basis of sorts, with a bit of crunching, for their assessment of probabilities of current price moving to any other given level. They don't always get it right, but more often than does your average retail player on the other side of their product.

In relation to your second point, my views on TA while possibly not yet fully disclosed are that most of it is useful/identifiable only in retrospect and too little is made of the far greater number of exceptions and failures. Hence my caveat to cherryblossoms of the need to be aware of confirmation bias at all times. So while I'm not massively impressed with pivots, I do find where support and resistance can be clearly and unambiguously ascertained, especially on the wider timeframes, they do provide a better than evens hint for interested parties.
 
It can go anywhere and the position that the retail trader takes has to be one of two---right or wrong. So if he is lucky enough to have entered in the direction that GS & Co have decided to trade. Then he is right.

Pivots are only understood in hindsight.


PPs should be viewed as areas of increased probability for turns. Agree there is no certainty either way for continuation or reversal.

Market makers can and do influence direction. It may be hard work for one sheep-dog but get two or three dogs and they can fairly easilly herd an exponential amount of sheep.

No certainty these PPs will act as S/R but in the realm of the unknown they are areas of key points where the news and fundamentals should be reviewed with what ever is happening at that time. Looking at volume, Bollinger Bands and volatility ADX can also be of value if used collectively imo.


Without going into too much over-load on indicators, PPs often line up with Fib retracements and extensions. I don't claim to know whether these are after the facts or because people pay heed to them and thus make it happen but they are like the different colours of the rainbow. They make up the light :)
 
splitlink,

please answer the following question in 10 words or less:
"what makes a market move?"



B.

Ok Im not Spitlink, but in the purest sense:

How - Aggressive orders overcoming passive orders (five words so straightforward)

If you are referring to the reason as to why they move well there are many catalysts that "retail" traders use. But I say once again, it would do traders more benefit to consider the cause and effect of the move, and for that you need a certain level of context.

For example its ok saying that price may turn off a pivot or double bottom, cool, but to where (target)?

As Spitlink said, it can be manipulated for a reason, hence why do bounces off pivots/bottoms fail to break higher and instead roll over and take stops out.

There are plenty of examples on the charts in this thread.
 
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this, I'm afraid. I take a very cynical view on trading, in general, and I always keep my powder dry. That is an account management thing.

I do have my own preferences. I am a trend trader and do not try to pick tops or bottoms, now. I used to, at one time, so there may be a couple of sour grapes in there, somewhere.

Have a good week, everyone.
 
PPs should be viewed as areas of increased probability for turns. Agree there is no certainty either way for continuation or reversal.

Market makers can and do influence direction. It may be hard work for one sheep-dog but get two or three dogs and they can fairly easilly herd an exponential amount of sheep.

Correct, there is no certainty in anything, but there are higher levels of probability.

What we are talking about here is beyond market makers, they are here to provide the liquidity to those whom can manipulate the movement, which then creates these areas of fascination.

All the talk of pivots, bottoms etc is very text book, and not real world just abstract, with no meaning.
 
Hi bredin.
Is this a free EA for MT4 and, if so, could you supply a link for it please. If not, can you tell us where you got it?
Thanks,
Tim.

Is an indicator, similar to the way renko charts work if youve ever used one of those (creates an offline chart that updates every tick).

I wrote it myself.

B. (avoiding being accused of spam or promotion, in case theres a ban for it, like on certain other trading sites)
 
I knew you couldnt answer the question :)

In light of the general tone of your post history, I'm done.

B.


I wouldn't rule it out dude and your tone has too much know how built in with lack of open mindedness. To use the popullar term, you may well be victim of self confirmation bias???

RBS and HSBC among five banks fined record total of £2bn by regulators for fixing foreign exchange markets

London's scandal-hit gold price fixing under spotlight


Barclays Libor Rigging Scandal

This is probably just tip of the ice-berg on what they've discovered.


Right now there is collosall fixing of equity markets all over the globe. Central bankers and governments petrified **** scared of a meltdown and they just keep upping QE and looking for a soft gentle landing.
 
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Ok Im not Spitlink, but in the purest sense:

How - Aggressive orders overcoming passive orders (five words so straightforward)

If you are referring to the reason as to why they move well there are many catalysts that "retail" traders use. But I say once again, it would do traders more benefit to consider the cause and effect of the move, and for that you need a certain level of context.

For example its ok saying that price may turn off a pivot or double bottom, cool, but to where (target)?

As Spitlink said, it can be manipulated for a reason, hence why do bounces off pivots/bottoms fail to break higher and instead roll over and take stops out.

There are plenty of examples on the charts in this thread.

Imbalance of buyers (demand) and sellers (supply).

That is all. All market "riggers" must still play by this game to make the market move: even the HFT frontrunners, even Soros getting a phonecall from the SNB.

Brokers do not have to "run stops." That is a paranoid fantasy promoted by losing traders so they can justify losing to themselves.
The Pros do it for them. They can do this because retail traders believe in the holy scripture of the stoploss "keeping you safe." A stop order is for emergencies, not contingencies.
Stops are taught as MM for the simple reason that it takes no explanation, and no thought on the part of either the teacher or the student: its the "easy answer", the trite reply (like i got from splitlink before on a different topic), the solution that precludes further effort.

Lets take a look, just for a moment, at an interesting phenomenon, by asking a question.
IF you believe price is going to a place, having done your analysis, why would you be willing to give up that position at a better price than the one you paid?

Before people start jumping up and down about risk and the foolishness of trading without a stop, a quick reminder:
A stop order is for emergencies, not contingencies.

Now we are back to those pivots: pivots provide the lowest risk, highest reward places to enter or adjust a position. The risk is lowest because price has to move least before you can say "Im wrong", while having the furthest distance to travel to a place of Supply or Demand (Imbalance) on the chart.

Who here has been wicked out of a trade? Im willing to bet everyone who has made more than one trade has experienced price coming back, hitting their stop and then moving into profit without them. I know I have, and consider it the single most irritating thing about trading (So I decided not to do it any more).
Well, congratulations, your stop forms part of the S/D imbalance that causes price to go in the direction you wanted originally.
Why do you think that just because price touches a value that implicitly means your trade idea was wrong? Why, because of this touch, would you be willing to pay someone else to take your postiion from you?
Why, if you believe that this touch signifies that you are wrong, would you merely close, rather than stop-and-reverse?

Price at any given point on a chart is meaningless. price failing to go somewhere (or return from somewhere) has meaning.

Do I know where price is going? No.
Do I need to? No.
I just need to pick one area of Demand and one of Supply, and plan contingencies to get my position there.
What must price do in order to get to where i want it? what does that look like (in a general sense), what will it look like if I am wrong (or rather when, since Im wrong about 80% of the time, in an immediate sense)?
If I am aware of roughly what the chart should look like in both instances, then I can ignore everything else, and just manage the trade.
It is much easier to be right big than right often.

[Apologies for not being specific in the last passage, but I could feel myself becoming too elaborate for a simple concept and getting into areas that are not necessary at this stage]

Heres a fact for you:
In the next 12 months GBPUSD will travel at least 1000 pips from its current price, as will most currency pairs.
Think: Where will you be when price gets there?

B.
 
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I wouldn't rule it out dude and your tone has too much know how built in with lack of open mindedness. To use the popullar term, you may well be victim of self confirmation bias???

RBS and HSBC among five banks fined record total of £2bn by regulators for fixing foreign exchange markets

London's scandal-hit gold price fixing under spotlight


Barclays Libor Rigging Scandal

This is probably just tip of the ice-berg on what they've discovered.


Right now there is collosall fixing of equity markets all over the globe. Central bankers and governments petrified **** scared of a meltdown and they just keep upping QE and looking for a soft gentle landing.

If you don't believe in fixing or you can't amend your trading patterns to taken into account inefficient bent capitalism which so many trumpet - you better start wearing your dipers again ;)


With due respect (y)

No offence taken (ever) :LOL:

If you think Im brash now, im definatley not showing off my trading affirmation :LOL:

Ive been watching those scandals unfold for the last 15 years, and as the Austrian economists say "Its never different this time."
The gold fix has been going on for more than a century and can be found in some quite old financal textbooks as "standard practice."
There was a radio series that detailed the (then) coming MBS frauds, saying how and why that would unfold. It aired in 2002, called The Wizards of Money (iirc).
Also recall that HSBC was formed to launder opium profits back into England.

I know full well markets are "rigged", but price still has to move based on market principles because the riggers can only make money from their rigging if the market moves, and a market only moves if there is a supply/demand imbalance. The riggers do stuff to upset the regular market activities to influence the other participants, causing said imbalance. (eg HFT frontrunning, "ghosting" and a whole host of dodgy techniques available to those with big enough wallets)
However, rigged or not, theres only a handful of ways price can move in any market (call it price action, if you want).

The SNB thing is classic. The SNB kept a price floor on EURCHF for several years, traders got used to the unlimited demand there, then the rug got pulled, spanking a lot of people (and a couple of brokers). Im sure that some people were informed beforehand and did the spanking.
I said to my students when the SNB pegged to the Euro that it was a desparate attempt to prop up the failing euro with the swiss franc and woudlnt end well.


As a contrary point, the only reason you are here at all is you believe that you can make money in the market despite (or because of) the rigging, right? :)


And to your last point: Ive got my steaming cup of concrete, right here :LOL:

B.
 
No offence taken (ever) :LOL:

If you think Im brash now, im definatley not showing off my trading affirmation :LOL:

Ive been watching those scandals unfold for the last 15 years, and as the Austrian economists say "Its never different this time."
The gold fix has been going on for more than a century and can be found in some quite old financal textbooks as "standard practice."
There was a radio series that detailed the (then) coming MBS frauds, saying how and why that would unfold. It aired in 2002, called The Wizards of Money (iirc).
Also recall that HSBC was formed to launder opium profits back into England.

I know full well markets are "rigged", but price still has to move based on market principles because the riggers can only make money from their rigging if the market moves, and a market only moves if there is a supply/demand imbalance. The riggers do stuff to upset the regular market activities to influence the other participants, causing said imbalance. (eg HFT frontrunning, "ghosting" and a whole host of dodgy techniques available to those with big enough wallets)
However, rigged or not, theres only a handful of ways price can move in any market (call it price action, if you want).

The SNB thing is classic. The SNB kept a price floor on EURCHF for several years, traders got used to the unlimited demand there, then the rug got pulled, spanking a lot of people (and a couple of brokers). Im sure that some people were informed beforehand and did the spanking.
I said to my students when the SNB pegged to the Euro that it was a desparate attempt to prop up the failing euro with the swiss franc and woudlnt end well.


As a contrary point, the only reason you are here at all is you believe that you can make money in the market despite (or because of) the rigging, right? :)


And to your last point: Ive got my steaming cup of concrete, right here :LOL:

B.


I'm puzzled perhaps I misunderstood your exchange with Splitlink then??? :rolleyes:

He stated the same thing which I thought you disagreed with about, the markets being rigged and that he was cynical about it all.

Carry on as we were on PPs then as it is interesting reading and I do concur with much of what you say. (y)
 
Bredin, I know how a market is supposed to move. If there is a planned decision by big dealers to push a market to a certain level and then sell, en masse, then you had better be with them or, if you are against them, have a stop loss in place, whether you think it foolish, or not.

I have my own view of what modern day market conditions are like. In this electronic age, I'm afraid, I am a sheep among wolves. Nevertheless, I do know that, which is a protection in itself.
 
Heres a fact for you:
In the next 12 months GBPUSD will travel at least 1000 pips from its current price, as will most currency pairs.
Think: Where will you be when price gets there?

B.
bredin, I get your pain and anger with what you consider to be misaligned beliefs, and your passion in setting it out like you think it should be, I really do. But...cable moving 1000 pips from its current level within the next 12 months is not a fact, it is a high probability event, but not a fact. And as for asking folk what they might think when it gets there, when? Will they think back to this post? NO. Will they have put on a position now to capture that very real probability? Probably not.

If however you said, cable is at 4960. Within the next 12 months it will either hit 5960 or 3960 then I suspect you would have a bunch of people asking, at what point do we place out limit buy or limit sell orders? You are possibly one of the few that will have grasped the necessary detail to have already placed both of those orders.

I don't take pity on fools either, but throw them a lifeline when you can.
 
I don't take pity on fools either, but throw them a lifeline when you can.

A fool is a fool in the eyes of the beholder. Nobody wants to know a loser, for sure, and some winners can be the biggest fools imaginable.
 
Lets take a look, just for a moment, at an interesting phenomenon, by asking a question.
IF you believe price is going to a place, having done your analysis, why would you be willing to give up that position at a better price than the one you paid?

Before people start jumping up and down about risk and the foolishness of trading without a stop, a quick reminder:
A stop order is for emergencies, not contingencies.



Heres a fact for you:
In the next 12 months GBPUSD will travel at least 1000 pips from its current price, as will most currency pairs.
Think: Where will you be when price gets there?

B.

Bredin, you make some good points with regards to the reward you get (and it needs to be big if you are hitting a 20% strike rate - if I understand you correctly).

But with regards to the above comment about dumping your position at a better price - So for example you mean if you have gone short at a resistance pivot, but now price breaks higher? But surely the theory for entry is based on the pivot area holding, and by staying in you are at the mercy of potential new demand coming into the market, so at this point the reason is no longer the pivot- its now an entry based on a pivot plus a false break out? So cool, if you have found that by staying in an holding through this enables you to stay in the big movers, but it surely must incorporate a risk profile?

With regards to the fact - I reckon the GBPUSD will move 50 pips in the next 2 days so what will I be thinking? Get back to the screens and stop watching re-runs of prison break!!!! In essence we all trade differently, and it is good to hear how others view market behavior.

I have nothing against PP and use them in my own methodology but from a different angle.
 
bredin, I get your pain and anger with what you consider to be misaligned beliefs, and your passion in setting it out like you think it should be, I really do. But...cable moving 1000 pips from its current level within the next 12 months is not a fact, it is a high probability event, but not a fact. And as for asking folk what they might think when it gets there, when? Will they think back to this post? NO. Will they have put on a position now to capture that very real probability? Probably not.

If however you said, cable is at 4960. Within the next 12 months it will either hit 5960 or 3960 then I suspect you would have a bunch of people asking, at what point do we place out limit buy or limit sell orders? You are possibly one of the few that will have grasped the necessary detail to have already placed both of those orders.

I don't take pity on fools either, but throw them a lifeline when you can.

About 5 years ago I did some analysis on candle formation. Its horribly dull stuff but I was curious to see if I could reasonably predict how a candle would form, particularly big timeframe candles.
The short version (ie findings) is this:
about 80% of all long (ie close > open) candles form O-L-H-C, while short candles form O-H-L-C.
All failure candles are small bodied: the body comprises less than roughly 1/3 of the range.
I called this observation "Opposite Extreme First" (OEF).
One thing this does is allow me to "see" price movement iside candles, without changing tf's on my charts, or having a smaller tf chart open cluttering my screen.
I also have no idea if anyone else has ever conducted such a study, if anyone knows of one I would appreciate getting pointed in that direction.

From this study I observed that at some point price must travel from the high to the low (or vise versa) without forming a new high (or low). Thus ranges become a good measure of potential profitability. Not exactly a revolutionary idea in itself, but links nicely with a very powerful trading idea - that of trading from* an extreme.
Theres quite a bit of other, related stuff, but is more or less extraneous at this time.

So now comes the "where do i put my limit orders to catch this amazing move?"

Near a high timeframe extreme.

Work at catching a yearly extreme and you're good for 1000+ pips, with plenty of opportunity to become aggressive with OPM.

*"from an extreme" is not the same as "at an extreme," and thus I do not mean picking tops or bottoms. Thats merely the effect of the idea, not its goal.

Heres an example markup
aw2p86.png


things to see:
first is the marked pivot on the down section: note now price behaves the same way when crossing the pivot (same =/= identical) in both directions.

the line marked "Going Here" is the 'pause n go' before the momo, a really nice piece of supply to trade back into. Additionally momo usually means theres not a lot of orders stopping price moving back to where it came from.

the 'lots' could be micro, mini or full. It makes no difference to the final %gain of the account.

the initial entry is actually off the H4 and is during the doji wick at the formation of a reversal pattern. If you want to see it, go look for it. Additionally all other re-entries are executed in the same manner.

a stop is placed at the Original Position for each adjustment. the area between the entry (Adjustment Price) and the Position is called "Space." We would not allow the stop to be taken. There would be some criteria for exiting or expanding space based on price closing over a line, well inside the position, allowing for bad timing. We can always try again if price closes back over our line (specifically called a "FatCat S/R" which also happens to be a wick on a larger timeframe).

the blue-grey line is the exit line of all positions, and is very rough. better places could be picked, if one were so inclined.

we use fibs as a convenient way to adjust lotsize and know where position moves to, without doing any math.

the last entry, after the pivot, is deliberately horrible, and you'll note that its the only one where position is allowed to come inside the longterm extreme. the 987 lot position is probably too aggressive, the 377 lot position is "triple safe." When I said a few posts back that knowing where price cannot go was more important than knowing where it could go, this is what I meant (Its also apparent in the initial position).

So if we assume that the initial space included 5% of accountsize as risk (5% (or 34 lots) over 230 pips of space) we can see the triple safe final space is 377 lots over 780 pips for a R:R of 37.6:1, which would equate to a 183% account gain in 77 days making 5 trades, and taking about 1 minute of activity per day.
I'll leave the other 2 returns for others to calculate.

There was never more than 5% of my capital at risk (and requires a carrinton-type event to actually lose it), additionally we could have removed our capital from the Risk any time after the first add, meaning that after the first add the trade could have been risk free (trading with OPM).

Additionally we still havent even hit our real goal yet :LOL:

----------------------
Back when I started trading in 2008/9, I had a job. I started at 7am and only had a few hours in the evening to trade (basically the start of the London session). What I discovered was that, in this limited time, I would try to force trades that werent there just because that time was dedicated to trading. It became apparent that I needed to find a trade method that my job would not interfere with. H12 (or higher) charts provided the answer, along with basing me decisions on price closing over, or failing to close over "something." Something is merely a line I believe should not be crossed if price is to go to where I thought it should go to.

After this I needed to work in a way of not losing much money if I was wrong, since price can go a long way in 12 hours, but still allow me to make lots of money if I was right. Space filled that role. I will explain space in more detail later, since its not specific to the S/R methodologies being discussed here. For now consider it both sword and shield of my capital.

B.
 
Bredin, you make some good points with regards to the reward you get (and it needs to be big if you are hitting a 20% strike rate - if I understand you correctly).

Due to the MM i use the fail rate is a bit disingenuous. Most "fails" are me working my way into a position. Timing issues rather than being totally wrong. Additionally, since I do not allow a stop to be taken, my "Risk" lasts for many failures and i consider it just the cost of getting a position at extreme. In fact I have not managed to destroy my space (ie lost all my risk) since 2009.

But with regards to the above comment about dumping your position at a better price - So for example you mean if you have gone short at a resistance pivot, but now price breaks higher? But surely the theory for entry is based on the pivot area holding, and by staying in you are at the mercy of potential new demand coming into the market, so at this point the reason is no longer the pivot- its now an entry based on a pivot plus a false break out? So cool, if you have found that by staying in an holding through this enables you to stay in the big movers, but it surely must incorporate a risk profile?

Enter at extremes, rather than pivots. Pivots are more like a roadmap: they tell you how to get to your destination.

The when you say "breaks higher" do you mean the actual breakout, or price showing that it may stay there? Theres quite a difference between the two conditions.

I love BO traders, they move their stops to zero and provide me with a good price to get into a stop-and-reverse when I'm wrong.

The Pivot is still a Pivot in this case, since a pivot is defined by price tending to close on one side or the other, and not across it very often.


With regards to the fact - I reckon the GBPUSD will move 50 pips in the next 2 days so what will I be thinking? Get back to the screens and stop watching re-runs of prison break!!!! In essence we all trade differently, and it is good to hear how others view market behavior.

I have nothing against PP and use them in my own methodology but from a different angle.

You are right that well all have a different toolset when it comes to trading. I have no scalping tools, for example, which comes from my total lack of patience.

The GU candles have a range of about 140 pips a day, currently (21 day average range), 228 weekly (52 week average) and 454 monthly (12 month average).
I think you will be right about a 50 pip move in the next 2 days :LOL:

I have no opinion on where price will be in 2 days, 2 months, or 2 years. I just have to know that it moves, what that movement looks like, and where its most likely to get to at some point.

Then all I have to do is construct win/win+ trade scenarios (ie if im wrong about where price gets to I merely make less money than if I was right) for long and short closes over (or not over, lol) a line.

How I trade:
1. Where am I going?
2. How will I get there?
3. How will I know when I am wrong?
4. What will I do about being wrong?

B. (never enter based on the illusory candle)
 
About 5 years ago I did some analysis on candle formation.

My question was of a rhetorical nature, but excellent post mate.

There is of course a distinct correlation between range and body, position of body on range, recency of context (was the prior and prior to that of similar/dissimilar nature) and a number of other metrics which tend to get quite overlooked in standard price action analysis.

Formation of price on any timeframe is informed by the subordinate ones which is what puts those trading super short timeframes at a distinct price structure disadvantage.
 
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